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spmdougherty

Pan-EU light cruiser tech line proposal

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With a hat-tip to Lert's Dutch suggestions...Any thoughts on potential play style/gimmicks/consumables greatly appreciated

Tier 2

Yugoslav cruiser Dalmacija

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Niobe

Tier 3

SMS Admiral Spaun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Admiral_Spaun

Tier 4

SMS Novara

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Novara_(1913)

Tier 5

HLMNS Java

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Java_(1921)

Tier 6

HLMNS De Ruyter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Ruyter_(1935)

Tier 7

Spanish cruiser Almirante Cervera

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_cruiser_Almirante_Cervera

Tier 8

Greek Cruiser Elli

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_cruiser_Eugenio_di_Savoia

Tier 9

HLMNS De Zeven Provincien

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Zeven_Provinciën_(C802)

Tier 10

I'm stumped here...any suggestions?

 

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4 minutes ago, spmdougherty said:

I'm stumped here...any suggestions?

paper napkin, with beer stains preferably. Or a certain Dutch battlecruiser design.

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Over-tiered. Paper will be needed at the top, dragging unsuitable ships up does the line no favors. 

Elli's sistership D'Aosta is in the game at T6, not T8, and Cervera is basically a Spanish Emerald at T7 instead of T5. Neither of those are very comfortable. 

Java and De Ruyter are weak ships and difficult.

DZP is a small, soft and light ship for T9 when Neptune and Seattle are a bit unhappy at that tier and have significant advantages across the board. 

 

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2 hours ago, spmdougherty said:

With a hat-tip to Lert's Dutch suggestions...Any thoughts on potential play style/gimmicks/consumables greatly appreciated

Tier 5

HLMNS Java

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Java_(1921)

Tier 6

HLMNS De Ruyter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Ruyter_(1935)

Tier 7

Spanish cruiser Almirante Cervera

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_cruiser_Almirante_Cervera

Tier 8

Greek Cruiser Elli

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_cruiser_Eugenio_di_Savoia

Tier 9

HLMNS De Zeven Provincien

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Zeven_Provinciën_(C802)

 

 

All of these are far overtiered.

image.png.1d12c968d6fbbb6763fd3ed124577923.png

 

Here's what I have. the T2-3 are Armored Cruisers, T4-8 are Light Cruisers, T9 is a standard 4x3 203mm cruiser, and T10 would be armed with 238mm/54.5 caliber german Kanon 3s, but it would require some massaging to fit at T10.

Spoiler

 

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/5987-spanish-heavy-cruiser-project-138/

This design of heavy cruiser were born in 1939 by SECN (Sociedad Española de Construcción Naval - Spanish Society for Naval Construction) for Franco's new Spanish Armada and feature a well armed well armoured and overall excellent design of cruiser. Based on available weaponry and diplomatic relations of the major countries of this time 3 versions were prepared: A true heavy cruiser with 4 triple 203mm guns whose guns would be supplied by Great Britain, a sort of fast big gun cruiser/pocket battleship with 3 twin 280mm canons to be supplied by Germany, or a larger armed version with 2 triple 305mm cannons salvaged from the Espana class battleships. The industry of the civil war ravaged Spain and the relations with the other countries prevented the construction of these vessels.

 

The data for the design as follows:

Date of design: 1939

Dimensions: 225,56m x 23,58m x 6,15m

Displacement: 17.500tons standard for version A and 19.000tons for version B and C

Engine Power: 170.000shp, 4 shafts (Or alternatively 110,000shp, 2 shafts)

Range: 13.000km on 26km/h (7.000nm on 14knots)

Maximum Speed: 67km/h (37knots) for version A and 65km/h (35knots) for version B and C

Armour: Belt: 150mm, Deck: 100mm

Armaments:

Version A:

4x3 203mm Guns

Version B:

3x2 280mm Cannons

Version C:

2x3 302mm Cannons

 

Rest is the same for all versions:

6x2 90mm AA Guns

2x2 or 4x1 75mm AA Guns

8x2 25mm Machine Guns

10x2 20mm Machine Guns

2x2 533mm Torpedo Tubes

Depth Charges: 8

2x Heinkel He 114 seaplanes

vdigBhI.png

 

 

 

image.thumb.png.f4c12c9b0383fcab65d697a93a72d929.png

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What others have said, there's no way Java, de Ruyter and DZP are going to be remotely competitive at those tiers.

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With only six 8.3cm guns Dalmacija is underarmed.    

Admiral Spaun & Novara are probably better suited to tiers II & III, but should definitely be included in the game at some point.    

 

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8 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

With only six 8.3cm guns Dalmacija is underarmed.

Well she could keep her German armament even though she never actually had those guns in Yugoslav service. 10x1 10.5cm would make her...still underwhelming. Pretty much a slower Emden. But enough firepower to be functional.

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When sketching out European cruisers, without most knowledge of all of the potential designs out there, I sketched them down as thus for tiers. Spain can still do it's own tree, the last preserve of the hope of the Spaniards getting their own nation.
image.thumb.png.b2621238234eb7aab3a05c4144d33007.png
Edit: Clas Fleming would be a Swedish candidate for T1 that I didn't include.

Edited by Trainspite
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8 hours ago, Trainspite said:

When sketching out European cruisers, without most knowledge of all of the potential designs out there, I sketched them down as thus for tiers. Spain can still do it's own tree, the last preserve of the hope of the Spaniards getting their own nation.
image.thumb.png.b2621238234eb7aab3a05c4144d33007.png

Niels Iuel is definitely more of a Tier III than a tier II; its got more armour than Saint Louis, if with four fewer guns (1 fewer per broadside though). 

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11 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

Niels Iuel is definitely more of a Tier III than a tier II; its got more armour than Saint Louis, if with four fewer guns (1 fewer per broadside though). 

That's true, it would be a better fit balance-wise there, though certainly still an oddball with it's sedate speed and compact size.

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14 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

Niels Iuel is definitely more of a Tier III than a tier II; its got more armour than Saint Louis, if with four fewer guns (1 fewer per broadside though). 

She'd only get a very narrow arc off the bow where she can get 7 gun broadside though. For the most part Niels Iuel has 2 guns less broadside than St. Louis. On the other hand she can fire 4 guns directly forward and aft, whereas St. Louis can only do that a 15° angle.

800px-Niels_Juel_(1918)_Plan.jpg

3 hours ago, Trainspite said:

That's true, it would be a better fit balance-wise there, though certainly still an oddball with it's sedate speed and compact size.

She certainly would be unusual with the small HP pool and low speed, but small size (meaning a smaller target at a tier where players tend to be less skilled at aiming) and (I think) best in tier armor. That small HP pool would make her very vulnerable to HE spam though, since I presume the 55mm deck is deck isn't the weather deck.

Edited by Lord_Magus
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions. From what I read, DZP/Eendracht went through several design stages before finally being completed after the war, so you have multiple designs to use a la the tier 7-10 Italian CAs.

 

Just a thought...because of the comparative armor and main gun weaknesses of most of these designs in comparison to other ships of the era, perhaps a good line feature would be repair party and a bias towards better than average AA?

Edited by spmdougherty

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19 hours ago, spmdougherty said:

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. From what I read, DZP/Eendracht went through several design stages before finally being completed after the war, so you have multiple designs to use a la the tier 7-10 Italian CAs.

The Italian line isn't the best example to use there, both the T9 and T10 are fictional / fake creations on WG's part. There were some designs that could have been used, but WG didn't use them. 

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On 2/17/2020 at 12:48 PM, Trainspite said:

That's true, it would be a better fit balance-wise there, though certainly still an oddball with it's sedate speed and compact size.

Sedate speed - I like that term!  Much better than slower than molasses...

Edited by sonoasailor

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5 hours ago, sonoasailor said:

Sedate speed - I like that term!  Much better than slower than molasses...

My other thought there was pedestrian pace, but at least for myself, pedestrian isn't exactly slow!

Edited by Trainspite
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Here is the CL tech line with some input from everyone

tier 2

Niels Juel

tier 3

SMS Saida

tier 4

HLMNS Java

tier 5 

Almirante Cervera

tier 6 CL/CA split

CL HLMNS Tromp/CA Canarias

tier 7

CL first draft of the DZP design/CA first Ansaldo proposal for Spain

tier 8

CL Eendracht (DZP as ordered)/CA second Ansaldo proposal for Spain

tier 9

CL German redesign of DZP design/CA first draft of Dutch project 1507

tier 10

CL DZP as completed post-war/CA the final Project 1507 design

 

Premiums can include Averoff (tier 4 'super cruiser'), HLMNS Sumatra (tier 5 as rebuilt in the 1930s), Elli (tier 6 re-skin of Duca D'Aosta with SAP shells), Tre Kroner (tier 5 AA specialist), HLMNS De Ruyter (tier 6 historical premium).

 

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Again, some ships way overtiered.

Edited by Lert
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I've got some slightly more detailed discussion of the Austro-Hungarian cruisers here: 

Frankly, I think you've overtiered Admiral Spaun and Novara unless you give them hugely deviant from the norm gimmics. They simply don't have the health pools or gunpower to be uptiered. 

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