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CriMiNaL__

Players that won't push

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So many games I have had in the last 1hr, there is a lack of push from the BB players, simply sitting back full health to the end, not wanting to get their paint scratched, why do you play a war game.

WG should put out a camo with a big yellow stripe down its centre just for these types of players.

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1 minute ago, G13Homi said:

Current CV meta forces passive gameplay. Boats must grouo together for AA. 

Then why do they do it even when theres no CVs?

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Just now, G13Homi said:

Current CV meta forces passive gameplay. Boats must grouo together for AA. 

I would disagree, the teams I have been seeing that win are pushing up, what we get are players primarily sitting back simply doing nothing

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11 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

So many games I have had in the last 1hr, there is a lack of push from the BB players, simply sitting back full health to the end, not wanting to get their paint scratched, why do you play a war game.

WG should put out a camo with a big yellow stripe down its centre just for these types of players.

BB players don't want to push when they can't depend on their cruiser and DD team mates to go with them.  Passive or worse cowardly cruiser play encourages passive BB play.  After all, how many times have BB players pushed only to have their cruisers abandon them, even when the odds were even?

 

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

BB players don't want to push when they can't depend on their cruiser and DD team mates to go with them.  Passive or worse cowardly cruiser play encourages passive BB play.  After all, how many times have BB players pushed only to have their cruisers abandon them, even when the odds were even?

Going off on a bit of a tangent, what annoys me more than timid play is what might be called WTH?!? gameplay.

Like;

(3G vs 6R,) (Twin Brothers islands,) (9G vs 6R,) and the three wins, but the nine looses.

There you are feeling all proud you held off a push at long odds, only to look up and see the ‘outnumbered’ Reds from the other side of the map coming in behind you... :Smile_sad:

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7 minutes ago, Crucis said:

BB players don't want to push when they can't depend on their cruiser and DD team mates to go with them.  Passive or worse cowardly cruiser play encourages passive BB play.  After all, how many times have BB players pushed only to have their cruisers abandon them, even when the odds were even?

There is a theme in what you've said..... That the lack of initiative is a compelling reason there is a lack of teamwork....  As a DD main, when I played Randoms, there was no incentive to push into a cap........radar and planes insured that....  And, the cruisers simply didn't want any damage or to be spotted by either radar or planes....  So, it seems that DD play influence cruiser play that influenced BB play and here we are..........    Having this same discussion again.....  

You are correct in your assessment.  And, nothing can or will change what they are currently doing...  A cascading effects process......  Add a mitigation to radar and planes that means something and I'd bet there'd be some more aggressive play !

Sadly, not in my lifetime will that happen. 

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This is not the CV meta... IMO, this is BB being to strong for their own good... As a result, your win will depend on

  • Maintaining the BB adv against the reds AND
  • BBs being productive in order to orquestrate a win.
    • That means taking the BB adv away from the reds.

If you fail to do this (both BBs and non BBs) your chances of wining or even carry the fleet to a win... Is a moot cause. ESPECIALLY in Domination mode at high tiers.

 

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While a 20km Battleship is bad, it is still much better than having a pushing Battleship that thinks he is doing """""tEAmPlAy""""" by tanking damage

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It's the modern HE spam meta for a lot of cruisers and DDs now. The ship design has them sitting behind cover lobbing shells never pushing. This has lead to an even more static game especially in high tiers. When I run my BBs if I see HE spam cruisers around me at spawn I deliberately pull back and keep range because I know they will never push with me.

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Most players don’t know how to push or when. I can’t tell you how many games are lost because some brain dead BB player decided that there wasn’t an S key on his keyboard and ate useless damage. Sometimes it isn’t the right move to move in, hell most of the time it’s not the right move to move in. That’s how the game works.

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13 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Going off on a bit of a tangent, what annoys me more than timid play is what might be called WTH?!? gameplay.

Like;

(3G vs 6R,) (Twin Brothers islands,) (9G vs 6R,) and the three wins, but the nine looses.

There you are feeling all proud you held off a push at long odds, only to look up and see the ‘outnumbered’ Reds from the other side of the map coming in behind you... :Smile_sad:

That's not really a tangent though, Prophet.  When you have a 6v3 advantage, that's when your 6 ships SHOULD be pushing into the three enemies.  The problem isn't so much that people won't push.  It's quite stupid to push when you have no advantage.  But when you have a significant advantage, that's the time to push your advantage to try to finish off the enemy, or force them to retreat from whatever cap you were probably fighting over.  And then your team can take that cap without resistance.  

I think that the problem is that too many people just don't have any situational awareness and don't know when and how to push when you have an advantage or when and how to fall back and conduct a good fighting retreat when they're at a disadvantage.

 

16 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

There is a theme in what you've said..... That the lack of initiative is a compelling reason there is a lack of teamwork....  As a DD main, when I played Randoms, there was no incentive to push into a cap........radar and planes insured that....  And, the cruisers simply didn't want any damage or to be spotted by either radar or planes....  So, it seems that DD play influence cruiser play that influenced BB play and here we are..........    Having this same discussion again.....  

You are correct in your assessment.  And, nothing can or will change what they are currently doing...  A cascading effects process......  Add a mitigation to radar and planes that means something and I'd bet there'd be some more aggressive play !

Sadly, not in my lifetime will that happen. 

Asym, it's not necessarily that the BBs or CRs are kiting outside of support range of their DDs, though that's often the case.  The problem I have is that sometimes people will complain even when the BBs and CRs ARE in good support range of the DDs, because you have some A holes that seem to think that if you're not blindly charging into the enemy cap that you're a coward or a bad player, etc.

Also, in high tier battles, it's often not possible to fight at moderately closer ranges because you're in a more open portion of the map, and moving to, let's say, 10-12 km of the enemy would be down right suicidal in the face of concentrated HE spam.  In battles like those, you see the battle lines engaging each other from 17 or more kilometers, until one team or the other loses a ship or two in that area and start falling back, and the other team, if they're smart, stays on the enemy's tail and pushes the front line back to the point that they can get their lower concealment ships (i.e. DDs and low concealment CLs) safely onto caps to take them.

As for "more aggressive play", that's not something I really want, if it's anything like the Russian server.  I will loathe any idea whose purpose is to force the game into becoming a foolish brawl fest.  I prefer the chess match of outthinking the enemy and being better at outfighting them at range with better aim and better dodging, plus good DD play.  Brawl fests are mindless nonsense where the only skill required is quick trigger finger.

 

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43 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

So many games I have had in the last 1hr, there is a lack of push from the BB players, simply sitting back full health to the end, not wanting to get their paint scratched, why do you play a war game.

WG should put out a camo with a big yellow stripe down its centre just for these types of players.

It's just not BBs nobody pushes anymore . You can have 6 ships pushing a flank if they see 3 red ships firing at them they all turn DD , CA , and BB all turn and run . Nobody wants to fight they just want to find there safe secure spot on the map that they have played 1000 times before . If they cant make it there they turn and run . You can have a full on lemming train going to C and one red DD and one red CA with balls can turn them all around or make them into a sideways blob . A few years ago that lemming train would have steamrolled those 3 ships .

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42 minutes ago, Cpt_Cupcake said:

Then why do they do it even when theres no CVs?

Because it's not really CVs, it never was.

It's the concealment/vision system and the resulting vision-manipulation meta -- because being the first or only ship the enemy can see can be so devastating, and there are ships out their lurking that the player cannot in turn see until it's too late... many players live in fear of advancing. 

This is why anyone who believes that adding "submarines" -- another stealth-attack unit -- to the game will "break apart the stagnant meta" is fooling themselves, and why CVs going out and mutually voiding the spotting stalemate at battle start is actually GOOD for the game.  Anything that breaks the vision-manipulation meta is overall good for the game. 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Crucis said:

BB players don't want to push when they can't depend on their cruiser and DD team mates to go with them.  Passive or worse cowardly cruiser play encourages passive BB play.  After all, how many times have BB players pushed only to have their cruisers abandon them, even when the odds were even?

Sadly, it's easier for people with no awareness or depth to take a quick glance and assume it was the heavier ships "not pushing" who are to blame.

More generally, there are too many players who think in binary -- there is only reverse gear and hiding behind rocks, or charging straight into the middle of the enemy.    They either think "anyone who isn't charging the enemy is a coward" or "advancing at the enemy at all is YOLO".   They have no nuance, no capacity for degrees of aggression or controlled advance, no sense of adapting to the situation at hand.

 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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Were the DDs dead on that side? Usually trying to push in a Battleship is suicide unless you have anti-destroyer screening.

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1 hour ago, G13Homi said:

Current CV meta forces passive gameplay. Boats must grouo together for AA. 

Riiiiiight because people really never go for hugislandsforever+snipings in matches without cvs.... you really have 10k+ battles?

___________

People in general are passive, bbs dont push, sometimes is kinda funny and sad see 4 bbs dont push because one dd.

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8 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Because it's not really CVs, it never was.

It's the concealment/vision system and the resulting vision-manipulation meta -- because being the first or only ship the enemy can see can be so devastating, and there are ships out their lurking that the player cannot in turn see until it's too late... many players live in fear of advancing. 

This is why anyone who believes that adding "submarines" -- another stealth-attack unit -- to the game will "break apart the stagnant meta" is fooling themselves, and why CVs going out and mutually voiding the spotting stalemate at battle start is actually GOOD for the game.  Anything that breaks the vision-manipulation meta is overall good for the game. 

 

 

To me, the biggest culprit behind the static game play meta is island choked maps.  People see islands and they see hard cover.  And all their instincts from WoT or some first person shooter get triggered, and they're thinking about hard cover and defensive positions.  And all thought of fire and maneuver goes out the window.

If WG really, really wanted to encourage more fire and maneuver, first, they'd make the Ocean map more commonly seen.  And second, they make maps that were much more open, with fewer, lower islands that didn't provide much protection from enemy gunfire.  In return, maybe they could buff the gun ranges on some of the CLs that have limited gun range, because cruisers are better able to dodge incoming shells when they can engage at greater ranges (more incoming shell flight time means more time to respond and dodge incoming shells).  Also, if players (CR players in particular) worried more about dodging shells, maybe they should consider taking the Incoming Fire Alert 1 point skill.  It can really be helpful and give you that little bit of extra warning that you should start dodging.  And it can be particularly useful if the ship that's firing on you isn't the one you're focused on.

But sadly, WG doesn't encourage the fire and maneuver play style with their design decisions.  Not when you have cruisers with static smoke, like the Smolensk or RN CLs.  Or ships with high shell arcs that encourage island camping, such as USN CLs.  And BBs that can camp and bow tank most enemy BB shells off their invincible auto-bounce bows whose armor is tinfoil compared to their strong armor belts over their citadels.  

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Crucis said:

To me, the biggest culprit behind the static game play meta is island choked maps.  People see islands and they see hard cover.  And all their instincts from WoT or some first person shooter get triggered, and they're thinking about hard cover and defensive positions.  And all thought of fire and maneuver goes out the window.

If WG really, really wanted to encourage more fire and maneuver, first, they'd make the Ocean map more commonly seen.  And second, they make maps that were much more open, with fewer, lower islands that didn't provide much protection from enemy gunfire.  In return, maybe they could buff the gun ranges on some of the CLs that have limited gun range, because cruisers are better able to dodge incoming shells when they can engage at greater ranges (more incoming shell flight time means more time to respond and dodge incoming shells).  Also, if players (CR players in particular) worried more about dodging shells, maybe they should consider taking the Incoming Fire Alert 1 point skill.  It can really be helpful and give you that little bit of extra warning that you should start dodging.  And it can be particularly useful if the ship that's firing on you isn't the one you're focused on.

But sadly, WG doesn't encourage the fire and maneuver play style with their design decisions.  Not when you have cruisers with static smoke, like the Smolensk or RN CLs.  Or ships with high shell arcs that encourage island camping, such as USN CLs.  And BBs that can camp and bow tank most enemy BB shells off their invincible auto-bounce bows whose armor is tinfoil compared to their strong armor belts over their citadels.  

 

 

You hit the nail right on the head. There is nothing "naval battle" about the design of this game. It is simply WoT using ships or as you stated a FPS  style game. The way Wargaming configured the maps, citadels, and ship classes basically doomed any sound thought of naval tactics

 It's simply a camp fest with snipers, SMG's, and LMG classes. Only thing missing is a medic class but our instant heals could be construed as being similar to that class in FPS.

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

I will loathe any idea whose purpose is to force the game into becoming a foolish brawl fest.  I prefer the chess match of outthinking the enemy and being better at outfighting them at range with better aim and better dodging, plus good DD play.  Brawl fests are mindless nonsense where the only skill required is quick trigger finger.

And yet, that's where this game is headed........  I'm with you, I like thinking and then figuring out what will work....  Not, mindlessly wading into the FFA and getting blaphed !

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2 hours ago, DolphinPrincess said:

While a 20km Battleship is bad, it is still much better than having a pushing Battleship that thinks he is doing """""tEAmPlAy""""" by tanking damage

So pushing nose in in my Sovetsky Soyuz and drawing fire off of my teamates that mostly shatter off my armour isnt teamplay?

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

To me, the biggest culprit behind the static game play meta is island choked maps.  People see islands and they see hard cover.  And all their instincts from WoT or some first person shooter get triggered, and they're thinking about hard cover and defensive positions.  And all thought of fire and maneuver goes out the window.

If WG really, really wanted to encourage more fire and maneuver, first, they'd make the Ocean map more commonly seen.  And second, they make maps that were much more open, with fewer, lower islands that didn't provide much protection from enemy gunfire.  In return, maybe they could buff the gun ranges on some of the CLs that have limited gun range, because cruisers are better able to dodge incoming shells when they can engage at greater ranges (more incoming shell flight time means more time to respond and dodge incoming shells).  Also, if players (CR players in particular) worried more about dodging shells, maybe they should consider taking the Incoming Fire Alert 1 point skill.  It can really be helpful and give you that little bit of extra warning that you should start dodging.  And it can be particularly useful if the ship that's firing on you isn't the one you're focused on.

But sadly, WG doesn't encourage the fire and maneuver play style with their design decisions.  Not when you have cruisers with static smoke, like the Smolensk or RN CLs.  Or ships with high shell arcs that encourage island camping, such as USN CLs.  And BBs that can camp and bow tank most enemy BB shells off their invincible auto-bounce bows whose armor is tinfoil compared to their strong armor belts over their citadels.  

All good points as well.

I love Ocean, and it always shows which players haven't learned to use their rudder for defense.

 

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I've pushed in as a crusier countless times where BBs are still sitting in spawn with full health and little to no damage done. Meanwhile I'm 80k+ damage up, setting fires and kitting the team back. Once the loss screen loads, low and behold I'm 1-3 on the scoreboard and all the BBs are at the bottom because they were too afraid to leave spawn. I genuinely don't understand it.

When I play BBs I lead charges just behind the dds. I dish out an insane amount of damage while soaking damage for the team. Once I hit about half hp I circle back out and let some other BB soak a bit so I can heal up. Normally I can still stay angled (time your circling out behind an island or after the enemy fires) and dish some damage while retreating. 1 to 3 minutes later I'm mostly healed back up and back in the fight again. It's honestly insane how easy it is to play BBs and do well. No instant death like in a cruiser if you screw up your positioning just once. Again, countless times we would have won the game if just one or two BBs pushed with me and the dd cruiser group. Instead you look at the minimap and they are somehow further away from the starting area.

I think most BBs players are BB mains because it's a crutch for casual, easy gameplay. It's easy to consistently farm damage and credits while keeping the best survivability.  Most BB ships come with amazing aa so CVs ignore you the first half of the game while semi grouped.

I don't understand how the one class of ships with the highest survivability can be so cowardly. This isn't to say there aren't times when you shouldn't be pushing. A lone red DD is probably best to avoid if your green dd is dead or on the other side of the map. If your straight up out numbered on your side it's probably best to kite back and play defensively. Obviously certain BB lines aren't great for pushing either, and that's understandable. 

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7 minutes ago, Bereavement said:

I've pushed in as a crusier countless times where BBs are still sitting in spawn with full health and little to no damage done. Meanwhile I'm 80k+ damage up, setting fires and kitting the team back. Once the loss screen loads, low and behold I'm 1-3 on the scoreboard and all the BBs are at the bottom because they were too afraid to leave spawn. I genuinely don't understand it.

When I play BBs I lead charges just behind the dds. I dish out an insane amount of damage while soaking damage for the team. Once I hit about half hp I circle back out and let some other BB soak a bit so I can heal up. Normally I can still stay angled (time your circling out behind an island or after the enemy fires) and dish some damage while retreating. 1 to 3 minutes later I'm mostly healed back up and back in the fight again. It's honestly insane how easy it is to play BBs and do well. No instant death like in a cruiser if you screw up your positioning just once. Again, countless times we would have won the game if just one or two BBs pushed with me and the dd cruiser group. Instead you look at the minimap and they are somehow further away from the starting area.

I think most BBs players are BB mains because it's a crutch for casual, easy gameplay. It's easy to consistently farm damage and credits while keeping the best survivability.  Most BB ships come with amazing aa so CVs ignore you the first half of the game while semi grouped.

I don't understand how the one class of ships with the highest survivability can be so cowardly. This isn't to say there aren't times when you shouldn't be pushing. A lone red DD is probably best to avoid if your green dd is dead or on the other side of the map. If your straight up out numbered on your side it's probably best to kite back and play defensively. Obviously certain BB lines aren't great for pushing either, and that's understandable. 

Some points in response.

1. It depends on whether you're in a Standard mode battle or a Dominion/Epicenter battle.  Many players tend to huddle up and play defensively in Standard mode, to the aggravation of their more aggressive team mates.  Some just seem to think that huddling up on their Standard mode cap is a viable strat.  It really isn't.  IMO, it's rather dumb, even if you want to play defensively.  Camping base in Standard mode leaves you no room to fall back and no where to fall back to.  It's better to push out and meet the enemy roughly half way and fight defensively there, if you want to fight defensively at all, because it leaves you room to fall back.

Camping and only defending your standard mode base would be like Germany not bothering to defend against the Russians in the east and everyone else from the west and just waiting for them to attack Berlin.  Or the Japanese fleet huddling up right after Pearl Harbor in the Japanese home waters and waiting for the USN to attack them there.  Very dumb.  It's always better to establish a defensive perimeter.  But I'm going off on a tangent.

 

2. As for taking damage, I don't play BBs to be a damage sponge for my team.  That doesn't mean that I don't expect to take hits, but I'm also not going to hang a giant SHOOT ME sign on my BB either.

3. As for why so many casuals may play BBs, I think that you're wrong.  I think that it's best the most famous WW2 warships were BBs (and CVs), the capital ships.  And those are the ships people want to play.

4. I disagree with how your apparent style of BB play.  DDs and CRs are a BB's screen.  And you can't screen your BBs from behind them.  

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