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The_Ancient_Mainer

Fixing Co-op Battles

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My apologies if this has been covered in another thread.

  • My play style is quick bursts of games when an opportunity happens. This is especially true during daytime. So, I don't have the patience waiting for Matchmaker to cobble together a team of humans for a Random battle, then fighting the battle over 15 to 20 minutes.  
  • I accept that the co-op battle format is quicker (usually no more than 10 minutes and often around five minutes), with bots plugging the holes when Matchmaker has trouble finding human players. And I accept the lower XP and credits earned in such battles.
  • What I find hard to accept is the seemingly quirky ending to co-op battles when there is no definite winner established - at least to my human eyes. 
  • So, can WG simplify co-ops to something like this:
    • The winning team is the first to reach 1,000 (or 800) points OR sinks all of the opposing ships.
    • Unless these two conditions are met, let the co-op battle continue running.

Thank you and I would like your feedback.

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The (well published) Victory conditions include the condition of one team being reduced to zero or less points by a ship getting sunk and their score is not higher than points deduction of the value of the sunk ship.

Red Team Score = 35 points
Red Team ship gets sunk, ship is valued at 40 points.
35 - 40 = -5
Game over.

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Let me re-phrase the question. Co-ops are boring and don't really teach new players much of anything.

  • Ships dies so quickly, one can't focus on improving a specific skills.
  • The bots don't play anything like human-controlled ships, so any skills you are learning can't really be applied to randoms.
  • If you try to play like a random, you'll find yourself (generally speaking) sitting out most of the match and - boom - its over.

In short, the phrase "go back to co-op" is pointless and not helpful, either.

I'd like to see some sort of co-op AI overhaul.

  • Boring 3

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The only difference that WG wants between co-op and randoms is the team size but otherwise they use the same rules.

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16 minutes ago, Krankipantz said:
  • What I find hard to accept is the seemingly quirky ending to co-op battles when there is no definite winner established - at least to my human eyes. 
  • So, can WG simplify co-ops to something like this:
    • The winning team is the first to reach 1,000 (or 800) points OR AND sinks all of the opposing ships.
    • Unless these two conditions are met, let the co-op battle continue running.

The rules are no different from any other match mod in the game... If the rules are triggered and there is a winner, you can;t get mad at the referee... He is enforcing the rules.

My recommendation is play with in the rules established, they're universal and enforced universally..

Your "human eyes" says there is no winner, on the other hand the REFEREE disagrees... Since the governing body who sanctioned the referee, already stated Co-op is not the priority for 2020.

Adaptation is quicker... (this goes for all you interact with in co-op, so do what I do and remind them of the rules.. If they dont want to comply then tough..)

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2 minutes ago, LaurenBacall said:

Let me re-phrase the question. Co-ops are boring and don't really teach new players much of anything.

  • Ships dies so quickly, one can't focus on improving a specific skills.
  • The bots don't play anything like human-controlled ships, so any skills you are learning can't really be applied to randoms.
  • If you try to play like a random, you'll find yourself (generally speaking) sitting out most of the match and - boom - its over.

In short, the phrase "go back to co-op" is pointless and not helpful, either.

I'd like to see some sort of co-op AI overhaul.

Coops being fun or boring is a personal opinion, not a fact.

True, coops are over so quickly & it is the poorest training mode in the game. But removing what has come to be called the "mercy rule" will not improve the training value of a coop.Operations are much better for overall training. However there is a time when you must move on to PVP to progress. This transition can be difficult but still a necessity.

Since we do have operations that already teaches team play, positioning & has more opportunities for gunnery I see no reason for not having a fun, shootum up mode for quick battles.

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46 minutes ago, LaurenBacall said:

Let me re-phrase the question. Co-ops are boring and don't really teach new players much of anything.

  • Ships dies so quickly, one can't focus on improving a specific skills.
  • The bots don't play anything like human-controlled ships, so any skills you are learning can't really be applied to randoms.
  • If you try to play like a random, you'll find yourself (generally speaking) sitting out most of the match and - boom - its over.

In short, the phrase "go back to co-op" is pointless and not helpful, either.

I'd like to see some sort of co-op AI overhaul.

I agree that Coop is rather boring, despite the fact that I do play it a fair amount.  And after a little while, there's not that much to learn.

OTOH, the reality is that there are a lot of coop players who don't care about this and enjoy coop for what it is.

 

I will say that I'd like to see coop get some serious overhaul in a number of areas.

1. Improve the bot AI to make them more of a challenge.  Perhaps enough that bot teams are able to win maybe 30% of the time, rather than barely managing 5-10% of the time they do now.

2. I'd like to see coop bot team comps changed to make them more interesting.  Right now, bot teams loosely mirror the player team by tier and type.  They used to be perfect mirrors, but that was terribly BORING and eventually the players convinced WG to add in a little variety, which made coop battles a little more interesting, IMO.  But now, I think that it'd be nice to increase the size of the bot teams, and possibly have the additional ships come from tiers below the lowest tier of player ships.  That is, say that you're in a tier 8 battle and that the player team was composed of tiers 6-8 ships.  I'd like to see the bot team have some extra ships that were tiers 4 and 5.

2a.  Another way to make bot team comps interesting might be to occasionally have the bot team's ships come from a single nation.

3. It might also be interesting to create some battle modes exclusively for coop.  For example, perhaps assault and defense modes.  Of course, these would probably require new maps.  Or at least, the use of existing maps that may able to be adapted for these battle modes.

Anyways, just some thoughts...

 

 

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47 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

The rules are no different from any other match mod in the game... If the rules are triggered and there is a winner, you can;t get mad at the referee... He is enforcing the rules.

My recommendation is play with in the rules established, they're universal and enforced universally..

Your "human eyes" says there is no winner, on the other hand the REFEREE disagrees... Since the governing body who sanctioned the referee, already stated Co-op is not the priority for 2020.

Adaptation is quicker... (this goes for all you interact with in co-op, so do what I do and remind them of the rules.. If they dont want to comply then tough..)

For what it's worth, NP33, the biggest reason that the victory rules are common between randoms and coop is so that WG can share a single set of code to handle this aspect of battles.  Mind you, if WG has stated that coop isn't a priority for 2020, so be it.  But I don't think that it's something that's impossible.

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

For what it's worth, NP33, the biggest reason that the victory rules are common between randoms and coop is so that WG can share a single set of code to handle this aspect of battles.  Mind you, if WG has stated that coop isn't a priority for 2020, so be it.  But I don't think that it's something that's impossible. 

It is what it is... QUe sera, sera...

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11 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The (well published) Victory conditions include the condition of one team being reduced to zero or less points by a ship getting sunk and their score is not higher than points deduction of the value of the sunk ship.

Red Team Score = 35 points
Red Team ship gets sunk, ship is valued at 40 points.
35 - 40 = -5
Game over.

I understand. That's why I qualified with "my human eyes" although I swear some co-ops ended before these conditions were met, especially after 8.11. Other players have also said as much, so I figured my perception is shared.

But you're probably right. 

  • Cool 1

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11 hours ago, LaurenBacall said:

Let me re-phrase the question. Co-ops are boring and don't really teach new players much of anything.

  • Ships dies so quickly, one can't focus on improving a specific skills.
  • The bots don't play anything like human-controlled ships, so any skills you are learning can't really be applied to randoms.
  • If you try to play like a random, you'll find yourself (generally speaking) sitting out most of the match and - boom - its over.

In short, the phrase "go back to co-op" is pointless and not helpful, either.

I'd like to see some sort of co-op AI overhaul.

This may be the better solution. Thank you.

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