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slokill_1

What ships need IFHE and is my Hellena getting whacked?

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    So what ships do I need IFHE on now?  Is my Hellena getting spayed now - cause baby Wooster is a fire starting beast?

What a bout Wooster?

     And Da Wrong captain with his Demolition Expert on Irian, will he just be trying to light matches in a hurricane now?

     And the whole armour rework think is just too spread sheetish to grab my attention, but I did see that some Smolester parts are getting neutered.

Edited by slokill_1

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Assuming the changes go through as is, you’ll still need ifhe on any CL that can see t8+ ships (which will allow you to pen t5-7 battleship and t8+ cruiser bow/stern), but with or without ifhe you won’t be able to do any damage to t8+ battleships except for fire and superstructure pens. For t8 and up CLs, you’ll still need ifhe to damage t8+ battleship bow/stern (and will actually be able to pen almost all of Montana with her 38mm deck) but won’t need it for cruisers. 

Edited by MidnightPhoenix07

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Most ships in the tier V+ range will be wacked by the proposed armor, HE, and IFHE changes -- they're a total mess.

As for Helena, I don't run IFHE on that ship, and it does just fine.

 

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From what I've seen so far, Helena will no longer need IFHE to pen 25mm of armour but will no longer pen 32mm with IFHE.

 

So basically:

If you face T8 and above, you  can still crap on anything that isn't a BB

If you face T7 or below, you will crap on everything if you use IFHE.

 

It will make Helena a bit less broken vs T8 and above but she will remains broken vs T7 or below.

 

 

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I don’t use IFHE on any ship. It’s only the armor changes that will have an impact on me.

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2 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Most ships in the tier V+ range will be wacked by the proposed armor, HE, and IFHE changes -- they're a total mess.

As for Helena, I don't run IFHE on that ship, and it does just fine.

 

With the current IFHE rules any ship with 6" and smaller guns can benefit from it.

I disagree that it will wreck those ships. Currently there are too many ships that can mostly ignore the IFHE fire chance penalty by taking DE with it where the proposed new IFHE will force players to chose between damage or fires instead of getting both with only a small hit to fire chance. In general DD's will see little effect and depending on the fire chance the impact will vary from almost nothing like with the Atlanta with its 5% fire chance dropping to 4.5% with DE with the impact increasing as the fire chance increases. I see the change as a way to make the ships like the Cleveland with a 12% fire chance actually lose 33% of their fire chance instead of half that with DE. I just hope they allow respects for captains spec'd for IFHE when/if the change happens because it is a big change.

I run my Moskva captain who doesn't have IFHE and it does fine.

 

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7 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

With the current IFHE rules any ship with 6" and smaller guns can benefit from it.

I disagree that it will wreck those ships. Currently there are too many ships that can mostly ignore the IFHE fire chance penalty by taking DE with it where the proposed new IFHE will force players to chose between damage or fires instead of getting both with only a small hit to fire chance. In general DD's will see little effect and depending on the fire chance the impact will vary from almost nothing like with the Atlanta with its 5% fire chance dropping to 4.5% with DE with the impact increasing as the fire chance increases. I see the change as a way to make the ships like the Cleveland with a 12% fire chance actually lose 33% of their fire chance instead of half that with DE. I just hope they allow respects for captains spec'd for IFHE when/if the change happens because it is a big change.

I run my Moskva captain who doesn't have IFHE and it does fine.

The problem isn't changing how IFHE works.

The problem is all the garbage being done at the same time -- armor changes, HE base pen changes, etc, that are completely unnecessary and open the door to a downward spiral of endless changes "For balance".

 

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21 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

With the current IFHE rules any ship with 6" and smaller guns can benefit from it.

I disagree that it will wreck those ships. Currently there are too many ships that can mostly ignore the IFHE fire chance penalty by taking DE with it where the proposed new IFHE will force players to chose between damage or fires instead of getting both with only a small hit to fire chance. In general DD's will see little effect and depending on the fire chance the impact will vary from almost nothing like with the Atlanta with its 5% fire chance dropping to 4.5% with DE with the impact increasing as the fire chance increases. I see the change as a way to make the ships like the Cleveland with a 12% fire chance actually lose 33% of their fire chance instead of half that with DE. I just hope they allow respects for captains spec'd for IFHE when/if the change happens because it is a big change.

I run my Moskva captain who doesn't have IFHE and it does fine.

 

You disagree?

Well, your wrong.

Atlanta and Flint WILL be wrecked.  If they take IFHE their fire chance will be pathetic at like 2.5 or 3.5% AND they will no longer be able to pen BB decks they used to be able to....which is important for its mortar lobbing guns.

or you can choose to not take it, not even be able to pen same tier cruisers (its own class) and be solely at the mercy of the RNG fire gods for damage.  Atlanta is already one of the worst performing ships at its tier.  Its AA role has been nerfed to irrelevance.  There will literally be no reason to run that shop in random if this goes through.

...and BTW   of course your Moskva doesnt need IFHE.  Its a heavy cruiser...no CAs need IFHE.

 

Edited by YouSatInGum

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IF anyone wants to see where the downward spiral leads, WOT just announced a full revamp of the entire tech tree structure of the game, top to bottom, with tanks disappearing entirely, being moved around, replaced, etc.

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26 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

The problem isn't changing how IFHE works.

The problem is all the garbage being done at the same time -- armor changes, HE base pen changes, etc, that are completely unnecessary and open the door to a downward spiral of endless changes "For balance".

 

That's just WG's typical style of hammer, not scalpel.

They did the same thing when they nerfed rockets. They not only changed the ready time when you start an attack run, but they also changed the squadron's maneuverability and the rate at which the reticle expands/compresses all at the same time. I personally still think it was a step too far and that they should have added each one individually, building off a previous change if there was further need for balancing. Doing all at once left quite the initial impression that they sledgehammered it into the ground and were done with them. And while I think the changes are fine now (roughly a year later), I don't know if that's due to just getting used to it, or because all the changes were actually needed. Their maneuverability still leaves quite a bit to be desired too. When in an attack run, they have all the agility of a brick, and any adjustment you do manage to make not only isn't much of a change in course but also widens the reticle so much that you might as well either attack the ocean and try again or wait for it to time out and try again (I think it would be fine with more maneuverability when in an attack run, but keeping the aiming penalties as is. That way large, quick adjustments can be made if need be, but your accuracy will greatly suffer for it).

Edited by GhostSwordsman

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6 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

You disagree?

Well, your wrong.

Atlanta and Flint WILL be wrecked.  If they take IFHE their fire chance will be pathetic at like 2.5 or 3.5% AND they will no longer be able to pen BB decks they used to be able to....which is important for its mortar lobbing guns.

or you can choose to not take it, not even be able to pen same tier cruisers (its own class) and be solely at the mercy of the RNG fire gods for damage.  Atlanta is already one of the worst performing ships at its tier.  Its AA role has been nerfed to irrelevance.  There will literally be no reason to run that shop in random if this goes through.

...and BTW   of course your Moskva doesnt need IFHE.  Its a heavy cruiser...no CAs need IFHE.

 

With the still proposed IFHE change without DE an Atlanta will drop to 2.5% but with DE it comes back up to 4.5% instead of the 5.35% it would have now with IFHE + DE. This change will impact ships with 7% fire chance and up the most and a bit less napalm in the game is not a bad thing.

Assuming IFHE + DE

Cleveland Current 12% - 33% = 8% + 2 = 10% for 16%
               Proposed 12% - 50% = 6% + 2 = 8% for 33%

Smolensk Current 8% - 33% = 5.36 + 2 = 7.35% for 8.1%
               Proposed 8% - 50% = 4% + 2 = 6% for 25%

With the change both ships and many others will now have to chose between better penetration or fires instead of the "I'll take both" that we have with DE. However, 5% ships will see little change if DE is taken, 4% ships will be a wash if DE is taken, and IIRC there us at least one ship with 3% and with DE will actually gain fire chance.

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Most ships in the tier V+ range will be wacked by the proposed armor, HE, and IFHE changes -- they're a total mess.

As for Helena, I don't run IFHE on that ship, and it does just fine.

 

the worst is for some gunboats DD with low caliber guns (100 mm) and the deck armor nerf on Colbert and Smolensk (just 16 mm). Players may convert to HE, and we'll see not less, but more fires. The Helena and Cleve can do reasonably well w/o IFHE, and the VMF CL even better, I do not know about the Wooster, never tried. This combined to the new torp detection option (1.8 km overall), makes BB stronger than ever. Shameful for all the whiners that pushed to this non -sense. Funny aspect of all this is the deck buff on some cruisers that not need IFHE (DM and Hindi), so they try to balance the brutal nerf on some CL. Nothing surprising for a BB centrict meta, and a company that listen to the BB whiners...

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50 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

This change will impact ships with 7% fire chance and up the most and a bit less napalm in the game is not a bad thing.

really,? The IFHE fire chance is going to be nerfed, not the HE fire chance (if I'm not wrong), so we may see more fires started (less IFHE)...

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

IF anyone wants to see where the downward spiral leads, WOT just announced a full revamp of the entire tech tree structure of the game, top to bottom, with tanks disappearing entirely, being moved around, replaced, etc.

let me guess...is going to generate revenue for WG...

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2 hours ago, MidnightPhoenix07 said:

Assuming the changes go through as is, you’ll still need ifhe on any CL that can see t8+ ships (which will allow you to pen t5-7 battleship and t8+ cruiser bow/stern), but with or without ifhe you won’t be able to do any damage to t8+ battleships except for fire and superstructure pens.

exactly, so many will just focus on setting fires with HE shelling, was it the intended effect? 

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5 minutes ago, loco_max said:

the worst is for some gunboats DD with low caliber guns (100 mm) and the deck armor nerf on Colbert and Smolensk (just 16 mm). Players may convert to HE, and we'll see not less, but more fires. The Helena and Cleve can do reasonably well w/o IFHE, and the VMF CL even better, I do not know about the Wooster, never tried. This combined to the new torp detection option (1.8 km overall), makes BB stronger than ever. Shameful for all the whiners that pushed to this non -sense. Funny aspect of all this is the deck buff on some cruisers that not need IFHE (DM and Hindi), so they try to balance the brutal nerf on some CL. Nothing surprising for a BB centrict meta, and a company that listen to the BB whiners...

This has jack to do with any stupid tribal paranoia about DDs suffering under the lash of BBs.  :Smile_smile:

And there's no reason to think TPS will be any more common than TASM1 -- if players aren't taking TASM1 over CSM1 and SGM3, they're certainly not going to take the flatly inferior TPS over CSM1,  SGM3, and the new consumable duration extender upgrade. 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, loco_max said:

exactly, so many will just focus on setting fires with HE shelling, was it the intended effect? 

The intended result for the rework was to make IFHE less mandatory and force players to pick either raw damage or fires. In reality, it only ‘somewhat’ removes the need for IFHE from t5 and maybe t6 CLs since most of the cruisers they’ll face will be penned without it, but then makes it still mandatory to damage battleships and t8+ cruisers while still being ineffective against t8+ battleships in the case of t7 and lower cruisers. 

In other words, most cruisers will still need it to be effective against high tier cruisers and mid tier battleships (thus halving their fire chance) but will still be reliant on fires as the only main way to damage higher tier battleships. 

 

Really, the only things that change with the rework as is are:

1) cruisers will always be able to pen same or lower tier cruisers without IFHE but will still need it for higher tier cruisers (for ships below t8);

2) mid tier cruisers will be completely ineffective against high tier battleships outside of RNG (aka fires);

3) Daring and Jutland get significant buffs; and

4) 406mm battleships (and to a lesser extent 380s) are even more neutered against high tier cruisers while every battleship gun added since Republique (except Bourgogne) further powercreeps them. 

Edited by MidnightPhoenix07
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1 hour ago, loco_max said:

really,? The IFHE fire chance is going to be nerfed, not the HE fire chance (if I'm not wrong), so we may see more fires started (less IFHE)...

The reduction in fire chance for taking IFHE if going to 50% from the current 33% so there should be fewer fires even when taking DE to reduce the loss which I think is their desire.

Edited by BrushWolf

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 I understand the confusion about the having I understand the confusion about the having of the fire chance in conjunction with flags and DE.   Previously it was mentioned that the having of the fire chance was after flags and DE. 

 the biggest issue I have with the biggest issue I have with it all is the nerf to 25% for T7 down?

Why in the world is this needed?   it's not like it's fun being at tier 7 Cruiser facing tier 9 BB's and cruisers, and this just opens that Gap up even more so.  I ask again, why?

2 hours ago, MidnightPhoenix07 said:

1) cruisers will always be able to pen same or lower tier cruisers without IFHE but will still need it for higher tier cruisers (for ships below t8);

Not true for Atlanta and Flint.

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2 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

The reduction in fire chance for taking IFHE if going to 50% from the current 33% so there should be fewer fires even when taking DE to reduce the loss which I think is their desire.

The current IFHE is -3% and -1% fire chance for guns 139mm and under.  It's not -33% of the overall value.

4 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

Atlanta and Flint WILL be wrecked.

I'm not sure I'd go that far.  IFHE on these ships now allows you to pen 27mm armor, and 4% fire chance (up to 6% fire chance with DE).  With the proposed changes the pen will still be 27mm, but your fire chance will go from the current 4% to 2.5% (or 6% to 4.5% with DE).

Edited by Slimeball91

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26 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

The current IFHE is -3% and -1% fire chance for guns 139mm and under.  It's not -33% of the overall value.

I'm not sure I'd go that far.  IFHE on these ships now allows you to pen 27mm armor, and 4% fire chance (up to 6% fire chance with DE).  With the proposed changes the pen will still be 27mm, but your fire chance will go from the current 4% to 2.5% (or 6% to 4.5% with DE).

Those numbers make no sense at all and they show the same in game. :Smile_amazed: The penalty/loss of fire chance for taking IFHE used to be 33% and the proposed/coming change is to increase it to 50% before DE. I hope that someone screwed up the numbers in the mouse over in game and that the wiki is simply echoing those numbers otherwise at least for a time an IFHE Nelson or any regular tech tree RN BB is very viable which should scare the hell out of everyone.

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