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Since the whole thing about the Russian cruiser lines are being changed/split, I feel like now is a good time to ask WG when they are going to revisit the little devil Khabarovsk? That ship in the current meta is piss poor. You have ships like Kleber that have 8 kilometer torpedoes and go to nearly 60 knots and then you have ships like Smolensk that can spam you to death with 16x 130mm guns. What about the Khabarovsk? The ship has only 6 kilometer torps with a speed of 43 knots. Khabarovsk's max speed without flags is 43 knots as well as her max range being only around 13.5 kilometers being a full gun boat build. Yes the ship has good armor, but the cost is, is that you still get the old pin values of DDs when shot by AP! The ship was buffed awhile ago and to be turned into stats that made sense at the time. Khabarovsk's current form was good for a time where their were less variety of ships provided by War Gaming. Back then at around 2017 (estimated) you didn't have ships like Venezia, Henri, Kleber, and Worcester. Not to mention any new BBs that have entered the game and the recent CV changes! 

Since these ships and changes have been brought into the game, the role of Khabarovsk has been demoralizing and not fun to play. Khab has also been over taken by the other DD, Kleber which has better detection, speed, and torps. Yes Khab can equip a heal but why would you choose a heal when you can't dodge shells that will go around 900 meters per second from multiple different type of ships? You also have to deal with the variety of DDs that you face like Harugumo and Daring that have good guns and way better than your concealment which is 9.7 kilometers. Khabarovsk used to have 8 kilometer torps with a lower damage Alpha as well as greater range for her guns. Khabs torps helped get that damage needed to help regular players to break that 100k damage. Back then, when their were less ships to counter Khab from her past form, she was a very disgusting ship to deal with. Now with new varieties of ships, we Khab is now power crept in this current meta. And she needs to be re-looked into to get her back to being a ship that can be enjoyed and maybe considered for Clan Battles? The ship needs to have better range in torps and gun range. I feel the past form of the Khabarovsk can suffice to bringing this ship back from the grave. 

Edited by magicalmoonman
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Yeah, you rarely see them.  The Grozovoi is much more common and balanced.

I'd also like to point out that this is an example of WG over-nerfing a Soviet ship.  I can see why they are making changes to Kremlin in baby steps.

Edited by Maddau
Added paragraph about Soviet nerf.

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On 2/10/2020 at 6:10 PM, magicalmoonman said:

Since the whole thing about the Russian cruiser lines are being changed/split, I feel like now is a good time to ask WG when they are going to revisit the little devil Khabarovsk? That ship in the current meta is piss poor. You have ships like Kleber that have 8 kilometer torpedoes and go to nearly 60 knots and then you have ships like Smolensk that can spam you to death with 16x 130mm guns. What about the Khabarovsk? The ship has only 6 kilometer torps with a speed of 43 knots. Khabarovsk's max speed without flags is 43 knots as well as her max range being only around 13.5 kilometers being a full gun boat build. Yes the ship has good armor, but the cost is, is that you still get the old pin values of DDs when shot by AP! The ship was buffed awhile ago and to be turned into stats that made sense at the time. Khabarovsk's current form was good for a time where their were less variety of ships provided by War Gaming. Back then at around 2017 (estimated) you didn't have ships like Venezia, Henri, Kleber, and Worcester. Not to mention any new BBs that have entered the game and the recent CV changes! 

Since these ships and changes have been brought into the game, the role of Khabarovsk has been demoralizing and not fun to play. Khab has also been over taken by the other DD, Kleber which has better detection, speed, and torps. Yes Khab can equip a heal but why would you choose a heal when you can't dodge shells that will go around 900 meters per second from multiple different type of ships? You also have to deal with the variety of DDs that you face like Harugumo and Daring that have good guns and way better than your concealment which is 9.7 kilometers. Khabarovsk used to have 8 kilometer torps with a lower damage Alpha as well as greater range for her guns. Khabs torps helped get that damage needed to help regular players to break that 100k damage. Back then, when their were less ships to counter Khab from her past form, she was a very disgusting ship to deal with. Now with new varieties of ships, we Khab is now power crept in this current meta. And she needs to be re-looked into to get her back to being a ship that can be enjoyed and maybe considered for Clan Battles? The ship needs to have better range in torps and gun range. I feel the past form of the Khabarovsk can suffice to bringing this ship back from the grave. 

Just curious, have you tried an IFHE gunbuild and played around CAs being your choice target unless a DD pops up?

I run this:  https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PRSD110&modules=11111&upgrades=132231&commander=PCW001&skills=336773122&ar=100&flags=3548&consumables=242

Khaba is something I feel probably does not need a buff.  Almost everything you mentioned can be flipped into a strength.  For example the huge concealment gives you more notice when a DD is creeping up on you.  This helps keep you out of close range ambushes by DDs.  There is not a DD in the game that can stand 1v1 with Khaba.  None.  The case that Kleber beats Khaba falls flat.  All the Khaba has to do is angle his armor and not eat a torp.  Kleber wastes his MBRB with Khaba angling and either smoking up or repairing through it.  Done correctly much of the damage is mitigated by the AP from the Kleber bouncing and the HE likely shattering on 50mm armor sections.  In the meantime Khaba's HE will reliably chip away at the Kleber till he's ineffective.  I've smashed several dozens of Klebers this way, usually at the cost of less than my half my HP which I can then repair.  I have yet to have someone explain how a Kleber can counter these simple moves that does not involve the Khaba lucking into a torp.

HIV and Worcester are both ships I actively hunt with my IFHE build.  Being able to pen 28mm opens up a lot more of their ship to unsaturated damage, which is the key to killing things quickly.

I hear you on Venezia, but thats not a Khaba thing, thats a SAP vs all DD thing.

The other complaint I see all the time is lack of gun range.  So what?  13km is quite useful.  I actually like the shorter range since I spend most of my time between 11km and max range anyways.  I like being able to drop off immediately while being able to hit select areas of my target.  Thats harder to do at 14-15km due to the longer flight time as well as increased dispersion.  I use the limited range the same way I do with my DDs where I intentionally limit my gun bloom to reduce my concealment footprint.  It lets my guns be more accurate while keeping my get safe disengagement option readily available.

Khaba is viable in Clan Battles.  It plays somewhat like a Kleber team but focused more on guns obviously.  A Khaba team has the ability to mix LU smoke Khabas to cover the Repair Khabas that add a bit more HP to the team's HP pool.  Good supporting ships would be Kremlin, Stalingrad, Moskva (nice for options to create radar traps for enemy DDs), Yoshino, maybe Hindenburg since the recent buffs, along with maybe a spotter for the weak flank like Shimakaze.  I've seen good teams run a Khaba/Yoshino heavy comp in clan battles to good effect, its a meat grinder that kills its way across the map, even Kremlins melt in just a couple minutes of focus fire.  I think we dont see them more often because player opinion runs Khaba down, and that results in many players avoiding the grind or selling the ship.

There are ships that need buffs far more than Khaba.  Yue Yang for one and Z52 (with Z23 being my number one choice for must buff now).

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I agree with you on most counts, there are other ships more deserving of a buff than khaba. Yueyang is in dire need of a buff. However, what I would rather see is a return to its prenerfed days. 10km torps would give it a better edge to deter cruisers while still in detection, and the gun range is perfect as it is. Kleber likes to set fires from range, that's not the Khaba gameplay. 

The Kleber vs Khaba argument depends a lot on the player. 1v1 Khaba can kill any DD, unless as you said they luck into a torp hit or the khaba is stupid enough to go broadside. 

I think a lot of the gripes are from players who remember how dominant the Khaba used to be and can't adapt with the new lines that have come out. It's still a very viable ship. 

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I had the Khaba and not Kleber, and the french one does everything better, better rudder, better turn, better turret turn, and better torps. And does not suffer so much damage from BBs. Khab needs something, range or something but now iti is useless.

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Unfortunately the IFHE changes will really hurt the Khab as its primary damage mechanic vs BBs was fire. In hands of very skilled players who can read incoming BB shells and position perfectly, the khab is still a strong ship. In the hands of average and slightly above average (me) players, it struggles some. Sure. I have good games in it, but boy, you make one mistake and you can kiss half your HP good bye to a well-aimed or lucky bb salvo. 

It's really just not so much fun to play these days. Honestly, there are times when i think they should nerf the 50mm plating and give it back range, maneuverability and get rid of the AP pen. 

I never played it before it was nerfed. Never even had the 6km torps. I can make the ship work, but man. Its work! Anyone who plays tash then khab knows exactly what I'm talking about. 

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On 2/17/2020 at 12:13 PM, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Just curious, have you tried an IFHE gunbuild and played around CAs being your choice target unless a DD pops up?

I run this:  https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PRSD110&modules=11111&upgrades=132231&commander=PCW001&skills=336773122&ar=100&flags=3548&consumables=242

Khaba is something I feel probably does not need a buff.  Almost everything you mentioned can be flipped into a strength.  For example the huge concealment gives you more notice when a DD is creeping up on you.  This helps keep you out of close range ambushes by DDs.  There is not a DD in the game that can stand 1v1 with Khaba.  None.  The case that Kleber beats Khaba falls flat.  All the Khaba has to do is angle his armor and not eat a torp.  Kleber wastes his MBRB with Khaba angling and either smoking up or repairing through it.  Done correctly much of the damage is mitigated by the AP from the Kleber bouncing and the HE likely shattering on 50mm armor sections.  In the meantime Khaba's HE will reliably chip away at the Kleber till he's ineffective.  I've smashed several dozens of Klebers this way, usually at the cost of less than my half my HP which I can then repair.  I have yet to have someone explain how a Kleber can counter these simple moves that does not involve the Khaba lucking into a torp.

HIV and Worcester are both ships I actively hunt with my IFHE build.  Being able to pen 28mm opens up a lot more of their ship to unsaturated damage, which is the key to killing things quickly.

I hear you on Venezia, but thats not a Khaba thing, thats a SAP vs all DD thing.

The other complaint I see all the time is lack of gun range.  So what?  13km is quite useful.  I actually like the shorter range since I spend most of my time between 11km and max range anyways.  I like being able to drop off immediately while being able to hit select areas of my target.  Thats harder to do at 14-15km due to the longer flight time as well as increased dispersion.  I use the limited range the same way I do with my DDs where I intentionally limit my gun bloom to reduce my concealment footprint.  It lets my guns be more accurate while keeping my get safe disengagement option readily available.

Khaba is viable in Clan Battles.  It plays somewhat like a Kleber team but focused more on guns obviously.  A Khaba team has the ability to mix LU smoke Khabas to cover the Repair Khabas that add a bit more HP to the team's HP pool.  Good supporting ships would be Kremlin, Stalingrad, Moskva (nice for options to create radar traps for enemy DDs), Yoshino, maybe Hindenburg since the recent buffs, along with maybe a spotter for the weak flank like Shimakaze.  I've seen good teams run a Khaba/Yoshino heavy comp in clan battles to good effect, its a meat grinder that kills its way across the map, even Kremlins melt in just a couple minutes of focus fire.  I think we dont see them more often because player opinion runs Khaba down, and that results in many players avoiding the grind or selling the ship.

There are ships that need buffs far more than Khaba.  Yue Yang for one and Z52 (with Z23 being my number one choice for must buff now).

Khaba is no longer relevant, not because it cannot fight a Kleber. Khaba is now irrelevant because it was supposed to be a speed demon that can dodge most shells sent to it from ships that existed when the Khaba was added to the game. However, since then, Italian cruisers and Russian BBs have no issue hitting a Khaba at its maximum range. Khaba is only superior to a Kleber in one point: its heal. Kleber does not have a heal but has reduced damage. But when the heal is chosen, the Khaba has no smoke to protect itself from CVs which are way more dangerous to DDs than when the Khaba was added to the game.

You minimize the impact of the Venezia by saying that it is the same threat to ALL DDs. Wrong. Venezia has much more impact on DDs that are permanently spotted than on DDs that are unspotted most of the time. And even when compared to a Kleber, a Khaba surfers more from the Venezia addition to the game than a Kleber because the Kleber is faster and has a longer max range to stay further away from the Venezia. And the 50 mm armor of the Khab has no impact on the Venezia SAP shells that can pen 54 mm from various angles.

Talking about Clan battles, I see multiple clans having only Klebers and one BB. I never saw a clan with only Khaba...Go figure...

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On 2/19/2020 at 12:49 PM, mrieder79 said:

Unfortunately the IFHE changes will really hurt the Khab as its primary damage mechanic vs BBs was fire. In hands of very skilled players who can read incoming BB shells and position perfectly, the khab is still a strong ship. In the hands of average and slightly above average (me) players, it struggles some. Sure. I have good games in it, but boy, you make one mistake and you can kiss half your HP good bye to a well-aimed or lucky bb salvo. 

It's really just not so much fun to play these days. Honestly, there are times when i think they should nerf the 50mm plating and give it back range, maneuverability and get rid of the AP pen. 

I never played it before it was nerfed. Never even had the 6km torps. I can make the ship work, but man. Its work! Anyone who plays tash then khab knows exactly what I'm talking about. 

It is not a question of reading shells. The rudder of the Khaba has been nerfed to a point where the direction change is way slower than shells from Russian BBs and Italian cruisers.

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The only way to reliably dodge in Khab, due to the rudder shift and turning circle (unless kiting sharply away with double rudder upgrades) is throttle juking. This requires a good shell read and can work well, but one mistake and boom!

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12 hours ago, Corsair_I said:

Khaba is no longer relevant, not because it cannot fight a Kleber. Khaba is now irrelevant because it was supposed to be a speed demon that can dodge most shells sent to it from ships that existed when the Khaba was added to the game. However, since then, Italian cruisers and Russian BBs have no issue hitting a Khaba at its maximum range. Khaba is only superior to a Kleber in one point: its heal. Kleber does not have a heal but has reduced damage. But when the heal is chosen, the Khaba has no smoke to protect itself from CVs which are way more dangerous to DDs than when the Khaba was added to the game.

You minimize the impact of the Venezia by saying that it is the same threat to ALL DDs. Wrong. Venezia has much more impact on DDs that are permanently spotted than on DDs that are unspotted most of the time. And even when compared to a Kleber, a Khaba surfers more from the Venezia addition to the game than a Kleber because the Kleber is faster and has a longer max range to stay further away from the Venezia. And the 50 mm armor of the Khab has no impact on the Venezia SAP shells that can pen 54 mm from various angles.

Talking about Clan battles, I see multiple clans having only Klebers and one BB. I never saw a clan with only Khaba...Go figure...

The old you have to duel till you die on the first flank you went to argument just doesnt work with Khaba.  Its true that Kleber is faster, but that doesnt mean Khaba all of a sudden is slow.  If what you see on the flank is bad for you take the minute and go elsewhere.  Its better to lose that time going where you can be useful than staying in a bad position.  Khaba is viable with smoke or heal, I just happen to prefer repair to smoke but other better DD players than I prefer smoke.  Baiting a Kleber and smoking up on them is quite nasty for the Kleber.  Most any fast open water gunboat isnt going to want to hang around a Venezia.

Speed only gives a ship a temporary window where most players will miss aim.  After several months players start to figure out the lead on the ships.  Even Kleber these days gets hit more consistently than when first released.  That doesnt make a ship bad all of a sudden.

I have seen discussion for running a Khaba heavy team against a Kleber meta.  The IFHE rework knocked a lot of the stuffing out of DDs fighting CAs and remaining viable burning down BBs.  I think a lot of people and teams thought Kleber beat Khaba in a fight, and thats why you didnt see them in prior CB seasons.  I think the word is getting around now, but with IFHE cramping a DDs ability to chunk down CAs and BBs effectively with one build I think you will see a return of more CA heavy teams.  Time will tell how things work out.  Seeing how the comp meta constantly changes, it will shift again, and who knows what will be the new in ships.

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9 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

The old you have to duel till you die on the first flank you went to argument just doesnt work with Khaba.  Its true that Kleber is faster, but that doesnt mean Khaba all of a sudden is slow.  If what you see on the flank is bad for you take the minute and go elsewhere.  Its better to lose that time going where you can be useful than staying in a bad position.  Khaba is viable with smoke or heal, I just happen to prefer repair to smoke but other better DD players than I prefer smoke.  Baiting a Kleber and smoking up on them is quite nasty for the Kleber.  Most any fast open water gunboat isnt going to want to hang around a Venezia.

Speed only gives a ship a temporary window where most players will miss aim.  After several months players start to figure out the lead on the ships.  Even Kleber these days gets hit more consistently than when first released.  That doesnt make a ship bad all of a sudden.

I have seen discussion for running a Khaba heavy team against a Kleber meta.  The IFHE rework knocked a lot of the stuffing out of DDs fighting CAs and remaining viable burning down BBs.  I think a lot of people and teams thought Kleber beat Khaba in a fight, and thats why you didnt see them in prior CB seasons.  I think the word is getting around now, but with IFHE cramping a DDs ability to chunk down CAs and BBs effectively with one build I think you will see a return of more CA heavy teams.  Time will tell how things work out.  Seeing how the comp meta constantly changes, it will shift again, and who knows what will be the new in ships.

One more time, you are discussing about a scenario where the Khaba is fighting against a Kleber. You don't judge a ship vs another ship based on its chances against that ship. (in the same fashion, you don't compare 2 players by comparing their ability to beat each other, you assess a player on his ability to help his team win) You judge a ship based on whether it is suited for the current meta. And the current meta is the multiplication of ships with fast and accurate shells and a CV rework with way more games with CVs and CVs being way more efficient at hunting and damaging DDs. You don't need to attack an Italian cruiser for it to attack you. And having the worse rudder for a DD, the worse concealment, no smoke (assuming you pick heal) and a very short gun range for a gun boat (shorter than Trash can, Grozovoi, French DDs, IJN gun boats) does not help with the meta. And the armor helps against other DDs but it is actually a handicap against BBs and cruisers as AP can do full damage.

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9 minutes ago, Corsair_I said:

One more time, you are discussing about a scenario where the Khaba is fighting against a Kleber. You don't judge a ship vs another ship based on its chances against that ship. (in the same fashion, you don't compare 2 players by comparing their ability to beat each other, you assess a player on his ability to help his team win) You judge a ship based on whether it is suited for the current meta. And the current meta is the multiplication of ships with fast and accurate shells and a CV rework with way more games with CVs and CVs being way more efficient at hunting and damaging DDs. You don't need to attack an Italian cruiser for it to attack you. And having the worse rudder for a DD, the worse concealment, no smoke (assuming you pick heal) and a very short gun range for a gun boat (shorter than Trash can, Grozovoi, French DDs, IJN gun boats) does not help with the meta. And the armor helps against other DDs but it is actually a handicap against BBs and cruisers as AP can do full damage.

And most CA HE shatters on her, and with proper angling you can bounce a lot of that AP.  Is it roll your face across the keyboard and stomp everyone easy?  No its not.  But Khaba is far from the worst of her peers, and where the ship currently sits she can get OP quite easily.  This place has a bad case of a ship not being the best of its peers means its obviously crap.

I am underwhelmed by the CV argument.  Yep CVs are really good at hunting and killing dumb DDs.  Dont be dumb.  Dont position where they can attack you multiple times with a single squad.  Know how to angle to their attacks to mitigate the damage.  

There are several DDs that need adjustment before I would consider buffing Khaba.  Z-23 for example is probably the most under powered ship in high tier and Z-52 could use some love too.  Gearing post IFHE rework has lost a lot of its ability to fight 127mm equipped DDs since they now pen its 21mm plating with HE.  All of these ships perform statistically worse than Khaba.

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On 3/19/2020 at 10:42 AM, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

And most CA HE shatters on her, and with proper angling you can bounce a lot of that AP.  Is it roll your face across the keyboard and stomp everyone easy?  No its not.  But Khaba is far from the worst of her peers, and where the ship currently sits she can get OP quite easily.  This place has a bad case of a ship not being the best of its peers means its obviously crap.

I am underwhelmed by the CV argument.  Yep CVs are really good at hunting and killing dumb DDs.  Dont be dumb.  Dont position where they can attack you multiple times with a single squad.  Know how to angle to their attacks to mitigate the damage.  

There are several DDs that need adjustment before I would consider buffing Khaba.  Z-23 for example is probably the most under powered ship in high tier and Z-52 could use some love too.  Gearing post IFHE rework has lost a lot of its ability to fight 127mm equipped DDs since they now pen its 21mm plating with HE.  All of these ships perform statistically worse than Khaba.

Talking about CV, it does not help that the Khaba has the worse concealment. So, even if you turn off your AA and run in the direction of the rocket bombers, chances are they can see you early enough and will not overshoot you. And with the worse DD ruder of the game, it is not likely you are going to change direction fast enough to dodge rockets. Your AA is meh at best compared to the size of your ship. As you said, it is mitigation, not avoiding damage with CVs. And CVs go after gun boats because they are easy to spot, not torp boats unless they run into them by chance.

Z23 is just a transitional ship before reaching the Z46 where the fun starts.Still better than the MAAS and the T6 IMHO.

I don't have the Z52 so I will not be able to discuss it. However, the 2 strengths of the Z52 is the torp reload speed and hydro. And those 2 features have not been touched by the recent mechanic changes.

Regarding the 21 mm plating of the Gearing, it is only the middle part which is a little more than 1/3 of the ship, granted, it is the part that people are aiming more often.

 

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3 minutes ago, Corsair_I said:

Talking about CV, it does not help that the Khaba has the worse concealment. So, even if you turn off your AA and run in the direction of the rocket bombers, chances are they can see early enough and will not overshoot you. And with the worse DD ruder of the game, it is not likely you are going to change direction fast enough to dodge rockets. Your AA is meh at best compared to the size of your ship. As you said, it is mitigation, not avoiding damage with CVs.

Z23 is just a transitional ship before reaching the Z46 where the fun starts.Still better than the MAAS and the T6 IMHO.

I don't have the Z52 so I will not be able to discuss it. However, the 2 strengths of the Z52 is the torp reload speed and hydro. And those 2 features have not been touched by the recent mechanic changes.

Regarding the 21 mm plating of the Gearing, it is only the middle part which is a little more than 1/3 of the ship, granted, it is the part that people are aiming more often.

 

I have plenty of Khaba videos up with CVs in them.  I hang with the team until I see how focused the CV will be on hunting me and if I see the CV distracted I play pretty aggressively.  When the CV comes back, I falls back.  Watching the mini map gives lots of early warning for the most part on where the CV is heading with a strike, and what the strike consists of.  If its anything other than rockets its not much of a threat and dodging or angling works well.  Rockets you mitigate the damage over time by first knowing how the dispersion pattern for the rocket planes are shaped for that particular CV, this gives you a good clue on how to dodge to avoid the worst hit possible.  Falling back to friendly AA makes it difficult for the CV to get off multiple drops per single squad, and you either have a smoke to evade completely or a repair where you can recover some of the damage taken.  CVs almost never mess up my game until my support is dead which at that point the game is lost.  In some cases I'd rather the CV waste time striking at me because the time it takes to kill me makes them have much less impact on the game.

There have been significant changes that changed how German DDs play.  The flooding rework which was done to bring CV damage down dramatically hit the one DD line that had builds that could reliably use flooding as a damage source.  Adjustments since has not been made.  Since flooding is not as dangerous as before the low alpha torps just arent as attractive as before.  Z-23as a specific example stands out in the concealment to gun DPM ratio that is used as a balance point.  The ship is out spotted by things like Akizuki, and even Harugumo with its massive DPM when bottom tiered.  It just does not have the tools Z-52 has to fight on favorable terms.  The smoke firing rating on he ship last I check was balanced on the 150mm, so even trying to use 128mm wont net you any wider smoking detection window inside your hydro leaving you a mere 1.62km of usable space in your hydro.  I dont thik giving Z-23 and Z-46 a 6km range hydro as game breaking, most of the time the hydro is defensive as enemy radar can counter your smoke in many cases.  German DDs also have the worst smoke, short duration but long cool downs meaning they are even more vulnerable to CVs after they smoked.

Gearing has many things that could be changed, starting with the model.  Look at Yue Yang and contrast that to Gearing.  Gearing is supposed to be much closer to YY in its height above water for one example.  Any time a ship loses immunity to certain weapons its something that should be looked at to see if it is going to create issues for the ship.

These are issues that I see that are much larger than buffing Khaba.  All of these ships are performing worse than Khaba as well indicating the statistical need for a Khaba buff isnt as critical as this thread indicates.

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54 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I have plenty of Khaba videos up with CVs in them.  I hang with the team until I see how focused the CV will be on hunting me and if I see the CV distracted I play pretty aggressively.  When the CV comes back, I falls back.  Watching the mini map gives lots of early warning for the most part on where the CV is heading with a strike, and what the strike consists of.  If its anything other than rockets its not much of a threat and dodging or angling works well.  Rockets you mitigate the damage over time by first knowing how the dispersion pattern for the rocket planes are shaped for that particular CV, this gives you a good clue on how to dodge to avoid the worst hit possible.  Falling back to friendly AA makes it difficult for the CV to get off multiple drops per single squad, and you either have a smoke to evade completely or a repair where you can recover some of the damage taken.  CVs almost never mess up my game until my support is dead which at that point the game is lost.  In some cases I'd rather the CV waste time striking at me because the time it takes to kill me makes them have much less impact on the game.

There have been significant changes that changed how German DDs play.  The flooding rework which was done to bring CV damage down dramatically hit the one DD line that had builds that could reliably use flooding as a damage source.  Adjustments since has not been made.  Since flooding is not as dangerous as before the low alpha torps just arent as attractive as before.  Z-23as a specific example stands out in the concealment to gun DPM ratio that is used as a balance point.  The ship is out spotted by things like Akizuki, and even Harugumo with its massive DPM when bottom tiered.  It just does not have the tools Z-52 has to fight on favorable terms.  The smoke firing rating on he ship last I check was balanced on the 150mm, so even trying to use 128mm wont net you any wider smoking detection window inside your hydro leaving you a mere 1.62km of usable space in your hydro.  I dont thik giving Z-23 and Z-46 a 6km range hydro as game breaking, most of the time the hydro is defensive as enemy radar can counter your smoke in many cases.  German DDs also have the worst smoke, short duration but long cool downs meaning they are even more vulnerable to CVs after they smoked.

Gearing has many things that could be changed, starting with the model.  Look at Yue Yang and contrast that to Gearing.  Gearing is supposed to be much closer to YY in its height above water for one example.  Any time a ship loses immunity to certain weapons its something that should be looked at to see if it is going to create issues for the ship.

These are issues that I see that are much larger than buffing Khaba.  All of these ships are performing worse than Khaba as well indicating the statistical need for a Khaba buff isnt as critical as this thread indicates.

One more time, you cannot assess the quality of a ship versus another ship by comparing its chance to beat the other ship. You need to compare how useful it is to help its team win. Z23 does not have the guns of the Akizuki so of course, it will lose a fight with the Akizuki, provided the player does not have the reflex to smoke up and launch his hydro. If he does, the chances are reversed. But I diverge. How useful a Z23 is compared to an Akizuki to help its team win? It can certainly not do as much damage than the Akizuki with its guns but it is better at capping and not getting torped, at disputing a cap and at torping cruisers and BBs. IJN gun boats are clumsy and easy to get torped in their smoke and take a lot of risk when trying to contest a cap. 

 

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41 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I have plenty of Khaba videos up with CVs in them.  I hang with the team until I see how focused the CV will be on hunting me and if I see the CV distracted I play pretty aggressively.  When the CV comes back, I falls back.  Watching the mini map gives lots of early warning for the most part on where the CV is heading with a strike, and what the strike consists of.  If its anything other than rockets its not much of a threat and dodging or angling works well.  Rockets you mitigate the damage over time by first knowing how the dispersion pattern for the rocket planes are shaped for that particular CV, this gives you a good clue on how to dodge to avoid the worst hit possible.  Falling back to friendly AA makes it difficult for the CV to get off multiple drops per single squad, and you either have a smoke to evade completely or a repair where you can recover some of the damage taken.  CVs almost never mess up my game until my support is dead which at that point the game is lost.  In some cases I'd rather the CV waste time striking at me because the time it takes to kill me makes them have much less impact on the game.

There have been significant changes that changed how German DDs play.  The flooding rework which was done to bring CV damage down dramatically hit the one DD line that had builds that could reliably use flooding as a damage source.  Adjustments since has not been made.  Since flooding is not as dangerous as before the low alpha torps just arent as attractive as before.  Z-23as a specific example stands out in the concealment to gun DPM ratio that is used as a balance point.  The ship is out spotted by things like Akizuki, and even Harugumo with its massive DPM when bottom tiered.  It just does not have the tools Z-52 has to fight on favorable terms.  The smoke firing rating on he ship last I check was balanced on the 150mm, so even trying to use 128mm wont net you any wider smoking detection window inside your hydro leaving you a mere 1.62km of usable space in your hydro.  I dont thik giving Z-23 and Z-46 a 6km range hydro as game breaking, most of the time the hydro is defensive as enemy radar can counter your smoke in many cases.  German DDs also have the worst smoke, short duration but long cool downs meaning they are even more vulnerable to CVs after they smoked.

Gearing has many things that could be changed, starting with the model.  Look at Yue Yang and contrast that to Gearing.  Gearing is supposed to be much closer to YY in its height above water for one example.  Any time a ship loses immunity to certain weapons its something that should be looked at to see if it is going to create issues for the ship.

These are issues that I see that are much larger than buffing Khaba.  All of these ships are performing worse than Khaba as well indicating the statistical need for a Khaba buff isnt as critical as this thread indicates.

Another thing about all your tricks to avoid damage from CVs. It you start running back to your team mates, attempting to mitigate damage or running away to a different part of the map, it means you are not doing any kind of damage during that time. So, it is a form of nerf for the ship on top of all the nerfs that it already has. DDs with smoke or torp DDs do not need to waste all that time.

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5 hours ago, Corsair_I said:

One more time, you cannot assess the quality of a ship versus another ship by comparing its chance to beat the other ship. You need to compare how useful it is to help its team win. Z23 does not have the guns of the Akizuki so of course, it will lose a fight with the Akizuki, provided the player does not have the reflex to smoke up and launch his hydro. If he does, the chances are reversed. But I diverge. How useful a Z23 is compared to an Akizuki to help its team win? It can certainly not do as much damage than the Akizuki with its guns but it is better at capping and not getting torped, at disputing a cap and at torping cruisers and BBs. IJN gun boats are clumsy and easy to get torped in their smoke and take a lot of risk when trying to contest a cap. 

 

Akizuki has a clear path to victory.  It has both good smoke, guns and torps and will burn through any ships if played decently.  It is weak to eating torps or being rushed by radar CAs.  That is what I consider a balanced ship, it has a clear path to win, and inherent weakness to exploit. 

Z-23 on the other hand lacks the ability to crank out the same level of damage, but due to its concealment and its hydro is short ranged enough you have to expose yourself long enough to hydro an enemy ship like you would do with Z-46 and Z-52.  Your gun range is short enough that any attempt at open water gunboating is punished heavily by many things.  Your smoke lack the duration as well as has the longest cool down, the worst combo to assist you in putting out damage.  Even with IFHE you dont break the 32mm threshold, so raw HE pen damage is not reliable.  You have decent fire chance at 15% maximum, but the limited number of barrels and slow reload decrease the fires per minute heavily.  Your torps hit roughly half as hard as other nations and you have less flooding chance as well.

Your torps used to reload fast enough you could take advantage of perma flooding, but they changed that mechanic due to other ships in the game and removed German DD's best source of large damage.  This was never adjusted for German DDs and is a reason why they are in a bad spot.

Are you really going to hang your hat on Z-23 being balanced while Khaba is power crept to oblivion?

Because reviewing the recent stats for Khaba 51.26% she has a similar WR to Grozovoy at 51.56% while putting out 13k more average damage than Grozovoy at 57,135.  Kleber BTW is 55.27% WR with 59,215 avg over all damage.  Kleber's stats still have not dropped much from the initial unicum rush either.  That doesnt really seem weak compared to Gearing which constantly places last in the T10 DDs at 48.64% WR with a paltry 39,129 avg damage.

Take a look yourself:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/shipstats/na/ship_20191228.html

If you have different numbers I'd love to see them.  I just dont see any case for buffing Khaba with its current position with slightly above average stats.

4 hours ago, Corsair_I said:

Another thing about all your tricks to avoid damage from CVs. It you start running back to your team mates, attempting to mitigate damage or running away to a different part of the map, it means you are not doing any kind of damage during that time. So, it is a form of nerf for the ship on top of all the nerfs that it already has. DDs with smoke or torp DDs do not need to waste all that time.

And staying there and dying fast is going to help you find success in any ship.  Every ship in the game should relocate if they are out manned or out gunned.  Too many take your advice and fight it out trying a quick useless death often resulting in their team's defeat.  I dont think that is good advice for players.

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11 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Akizuki has a clear path to victory.  It has both good smoke, guns and torps and will burn through any ships if played decently.  It is weak to eating torps or being rushed by radar CAs.  That is what I consider a balanced ship, it has a clear path to win, and inherent weakness to exploit. 

Z-23 on the other hand lacks the ability to crank out the same level of damage, but due to its concealment and its hydro is short ranged enough you have to expose yourself long enough to hydro an enemy ship like you would do with Z-46 and Z-52.  Your gun range is short enough that any attempt at open water gunboating is punished heavily by many things.  Your smoke lack the duration as well as has the longest cool down, the worst combo to assist you in putting out damage.  Even with IFHE you dont break the 32mm threshold, so raw HE pen damage is not reliable.  You have decent fire chance at 15% maximum, but the limited number of barrels and slow reload decrease the fires per minute heavily.  Your torps hit roughly half as hard as other nations and you have less flooding chance as well.

Your torps used to reload fast enough you could take advantage of perma flooding, but they changed that mechanic due to other ships in the game and removed German DD's best source of large damage.  This was never adjusted for German DDs and is a reason why they are in a bad spot.

Are you really going to hang your hat on Z-23 being balanced while Khaba is power crept to oblivion?

Because reviewing the recent stats for Khaba 51.26% she has a similar WR to Grozovoy at 51.56% while putting out 13k more average damage than Grozovoy at 57,135.  Kleber BTW is 55.27% WR with 59,215 avg over all damage.  Kleber's stats still have not dropped much from the initial unicum rush either.  That doesnt really seem weak compared to Gearing which constantly places last in the T10 DDs at 48.64% WR with a paltry 39,129 avg damage.

Take a look yourself:

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/shipstats/na/ship_20191228.html

If you have different numbers I'd love to see them.  I just dont see any case for buffing Khaba with its current position with slightly above average stats.

And staying there and dying fast is going to help you find success in any ship.  Every ship in the game should relocate if they are out manned or out gunned.  Too many take your advice and fight it out trying a quick useless death often resulting in their team's defeat.  I dont think that is good advice for players.

I never told you to stay and die against an overwhelming enemy team. I said, some other ships do NOT NEED to run away because they have smoke and do not need to shoot to be useful. Khab does not have smoke and cannot be useful at anything without shooting and getting detected, that is the difference. In a torp boat, the more pushy the enemy team is, the more torp you land so actually, you are more efficient when the enemy force is concentrated in that area.

German DDs are unbeatable at capping. IJN gun boats are the worse at capping after the Russian ones. German torps do not have high alpha but German DDs are still better torp boats than IJN gun boats. Regarding the win rate, you need to remember that the population of players affect the win rate as well. Statistically, Russian DDs players are better than the average population of player of DD players, same with French DDs. Those lines are supposed to be not "Noob friendly".

Regarding the Gearing low win rate, it is not only that ship that has lower than average winrate. The whole US tech tree (not counting the premium ships) has lower than average win rate. It is probably because it is the "home" navy so all the new players in NA are starting with that line.

Montana which is a great BB has 48,84% win rate.

Midway which is an OP ship has 45.47% win rate

Des Moines, you can definitively not say it is a bad ship, has the same win rate as the Gearing.

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14 minutes ago, Corsair_I said:

I never told you to stay and die against an overwhelming enemy team. I said, some other ships do NOT NEED to run away because they have smoke and do not need to shoot to be useful. Khab does not have smoke and cannot be useful at anything without shooting and getting detected, that is the difference. In a torp boat, the more pushy the enemy team is, the more torp you land so actually, you are more efficient when the enemy force is concentrated in that area.

German DDs are unbeatable at capping. IJN gun boats are the worse at capping after the Russian ones. German torps do not have high alpha but German DDs are still better torp boats than IJN gun boats. Regarding the win rate, you need to remember that the population of players affect the win rate as well. Statistically, Russian DDs players are better than the average population of player of DD players, same with French DDs. Those lines are supposed to be not "Noob friendly".

Justify the need for the Khaba buffs by stats please.  From everything I see its still a middle of the pack performer when compared to its peers.  Its the same player base, barring the initial swarm of purple players that obtains a ship near instantaneously, just saying players that play a certain line are better players doesnt make much sense to me.  Every ship release has seen the stat performance of ships decrease over time as less skilled players get into the ship.  Usually the ship is ready for adjustment within 9 months to a year of release as theres enough info to adjust it.  That just seems to be the pattern I see looking at stats and looking at how WG has adjusted ships.

Maybe you have seen something I have not, I am more than willing to see any information you have on that.  

 

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1 minute ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Justify the need for the Khaba buffs by stats please.  From everything I see its still a middle of the pack performer when compared to its peers.  Its the same player base, barring the initial swarm of purple players that obtains a ship near instantaneously, just saying players that play a certain line are better players doesnt make much sense to me.  Every ship release has seen the stat performance of ships decrease over time as less skilled players get into the ship.  Usually the ship is ready for adjustment within 9 months to a year of release as theres enough info to adjust it.  That just seems to be the pattern I see looking at stats and looking at how WG has adjusted ships.

Maybe you have seen something I have not, I am more than willing to see any information you have on that.  

 

Please explain how the Des Moines has the same win rate as the Gearing...

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54 minutes ago, Corsair_I said:

Please explain how the Des Moines has the same win rate as the Gearing...

And with that I will take my time elsewhere.  Good day.

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4 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

And with that I will take my time elsewhere.  Good day.

Not sure if you have read the end of my previous post:

Regarding the Gearing low win rate, it is not only that ship that has lower than average winrate. The whole US tech tree (not counting the premium ships) has lower than average win rate. It is probably because it is the "home" navy so all the new players in NA are starting with that line.

Montana which is a great BB has 48,84% win rate.

Midway which is an OP ship has 45.47% win rate

Des Moines, you can definitively not say it is a bad ship, has the same win rate as the Gearing.

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8 minutes ago, Corsair_I said:

Not sure if you have read the end of my previous post:

Regarding the Gearing low win rate, it is not only that ship that has lower than average winrate. The whole US tech tree (not counting the premium ships) has lower than average win rate. It is probably because it is the "home" navy so all the new players in NA are starting with that line.

Montana which is a great BB has 48,84% win rate.

Midway which is an OP ship has 45.47% win rate

Des Moines, you can definitively not say it is a bad ship, has the same win rate as the Gearing.

I saw that as another widening of the argument, which to be fair I was guilty of as well.  We are starting to discuss every ship other than Khaba and I dont want to hijack the thread.  I just dont see the justification where Khaba sits in the rankings (slightly above average) with her peers to justify a buff.  

 

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1 minute ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I saw that as another widening of the argument, which to be fair I was guilty of as well.  We are starting to discuss every ship other than Khaba and I dont want to hijack the thread.  I just dont see the justification where Khaba sits in the rankings (slightly above average) with her peers to justify a buff.  

 

My point was that not only the Gearing has a low win rate but any US tech tree ship while not every US ship is bad obviously. This is related to your statement with the Khab win rate. My point is that Russian DD win rate is artificially bumped up with a better than average population of players.

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