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Conzoop

18inch guns: their slow creep down to lower tiers

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I've been noticing more and more lately that 18 inch guns are just getting free reign to win games when they're on tier 9 boats like the Georgia and musashi, these guns ballistics are rediculously good because they have so much interia they can just about bowpen anything that isn't a perfectly angled Russian BB. 
I feel like this trend will eventually creep down to tier 8 and I dread the thought of those things getting further and further down the tiers as premiums, making grinding literally every BB line, CL/CA line and possibly CV line a nightmare. 

the guns are gun, fun to use sure, it used to be literally all the Yamato had going for it (and it still does so the thing is more or less obsolete now) and I miss when that was it, other 18in armed BB's are equally if not moreso ridiculously accurate for the amount of damage they can output on target and seeing them so consistently wears down that "Oh no I should be more evasive" mindset cruisers usually have, forcing them into holdout positions behind islands way, waaaay more frequently. And it just isnt fun.

is it just me? am I just imagining this as a way to make up for my slowly lowering winrate?:Smile_sceptic: I felt I should put the question out there

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20 minutes ago, Conzoop said:

I've been noticing more and more lately that 18 inch guns are just getting free reign to win games when they're on tier 9 boats like the Georgia and musashi, these guns ballistics are rediculously good because they have so much interia they can just about bowpen anything that isn't a perfectly angled Russian BB.

Only the 460mm (18.1”) guns of Yamato and Musashi overmatch 32mm of plating, which you find on the bow and stern of tier VIII+ battleships. The 457mm (18.0”) guns you find on other battleships cannot overmatch this threshold, and any tier VIII+ battleship can bounce these shells off their bow if they are properly angled. In fact, the only real advantage of 457mm guns over 406mm (16”) rifles in terms of overmatch is the former’s ability to overmatch the 30mm of plating found on the upper belts of many cruisers.

Most of the time, a decent player can wreck your face with 406mm guns just as easily as with 457s. The significant advantage most 457mm-armed ships have is better accuracy, which is designed to offset their smaller number of barrels. A good player who knows how to aim can leverage that very effectively. In fact, I recently finished grinding the Izumo and I prefer her gunnery to Musashi’s. IMO, the extra accuracy of her 406s is worth giving up the overmatch advantage of the 460s since Musashi does not have Yamato’s excellent sigma. 

Edited by Nevermore135
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25 minutes ago, Conzoop said:

I've been noticing more and more lately that 18 inch guns are just getting free reign to win games when they're on tier 9 boats like the Georgia and musashi, these guns ballistics are rediculously good because they have so much interia they can just about bowpen anything that isn't a perfectly angled Russian BB. 
I feel like this trend will eventually creep down to tier 8 and I dread the thought of those things getting further and further down the tiers as premiums, making grinding literally every BB line, CL/CA line and possibly CV line a nightmare. 

the guns are gun, fun to use sure, it used to be literally all the Yamato had going for it (and it still does so the thing is more or less obsolete now) and I miss when that was it, other 18in armed BB's are equally if not moreso ridiculously accurate for the amount of damage they can output on target and seeing them so consistently wears down that "Oh no I should be more evasive" mindset cruisers usually have, forcing them into holdout positions behind islands way, waaaay more frequently. And it just isnt fun.

is it just me? am I just imagining this as a way to make up for my slowly lowering winrate?:Smile_sceptic: I felt I should put the question out there

Um tier 9 Georgia already sees tier 7 ships...

These ships are way OP/over-match for tier 7 ships... As it stands, it only takes 6 shells (yup shells not salvos) to sink a cruiser in a Georgia.

How many shells does it take to sink an OP tier 9 BB with a tier 7 ship??? A LOT more then 6 shots or 6 salvos...

Case in point..

 

Edited by Navalpride33
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35 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Um tier 9 Georgia already sees tier 7 ships...

These ships are way OP/over-match for tier 7 ships... As it stands, it only takes 6 shells (yup shells not salvos) to sink a cruiser in a Georgia.

 How many shells does it take to sink an OP tier 9 BB with a tier 7 ship??? A LOT more then 6 shots or 6 salvos...

Case in point..

 

You do realize that any t8 BB's guns overmatch t7 ships, right? Hell, most t7s overmatch each other. 6 shells is a meaningless number by the way, 6 shells from almost any BB will sink pretty much any cruiser if those shells are cits. If anything when facing mid tier ships like that you want more guns, not bigger shells. They overmatch just the same and you have less risk of overpen. It's only when facing high tier ships that the 30mm overmatch that 457s have is relevant over the standard 16 inchers.

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8 minutes ago, Tekina_ said:

You do realize that any t8 BB's guns overmatch t7 ships,

Yup I know... I complain about tier 8 and above AP spammers all the time...

It doesn't make it any accepting or better... The point is... People don't like easy kills contributing to easy wins or easy losses...

People dont like one class with a lot of in game influence with their power abilities.

This is only one issue, in the pandorahs' box of problems I raise the alarm about..

Edited by Navalpride33
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10 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Yup I know... I complain about tier 8 and above AP spammers all the time...

 

I think this is the first time I have ever heard of an AP spammer.

Usually its complaints about HE spam.

 

 

1 hour ago, Conzoop said:

I've been noticing more and more lately that 18 inch guns are just getting free reign to win games when they're on tier 9 boats like the Georgia and musashi, these guns ballistics are rediculously good because they have so much interia they can just about bowpen anything that isn't a perfectly angled Russian BB. 
I feel like this trend will eventually creep down to tier 8 and I dread the thought of those things getting further and further down the tiers as premiums, making grinding literally every BB line, CL/CA line and possibly CV line a nightmare. 

the guns are gun, fun to use sure, it used to be literally all the Yamato had going for it (and it still does so the thing is more or less obsolete now) and I miss when that was it, other 18in armed BB's are equally if not moreso ridiculously accurate for the amount of damage they can output on target and seeing them so consistently wears down that "Oh no I should be more evasive" mindset cruisers usually have, forcing them into holdout positions behind islands way, waaaay more frequently. And it just isnt fun.

is it just me? am I just imagining this as a way to make up for my slowly lowering winrate?:Smile_sceptic: I felt I should put the question out there

 

So 18in guns are creeping into lower tiers from T10

 

and yet no one had an issue of 16in guns creeping down from T7.

 

interesting.

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2 hours ago, Conzoop said:

. . . seeing them so consistently wears down that "Oh no I should be more evasive" mindset cruisers usually have, forcing them into holdout positions behind islands way, waaaay more frequently. And it just isnt fun.

This is where the OP is correct. It greatly affects cruiser game play because 17 & 18" guns overmatch 30mm of armor and there's now MORE 17" and higher gunned T10 BBs than 16" BBs. Where before, many high top cruisers could angle and deflect the majority of BB shells with their 30mm plate, that's now not possible vs the majority of top tier BBs. 

It's just dumbing down the game for BBs mostly and taking away another avenue of tactical gameplay. 

Edited by Zarroc1

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I feel that having a premium 'pay to overmatch 30mm' scenario is quite problematic, especially given the IFHE/plating rework looks to increase the amount of 30mm plating out there.

Do Musashi and Georgia need buffs...?

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1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

Musashi does not have Yamato’s excellent sigma

It doesn't but, it backdoors 18.1" against T7 ships

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9 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

It doesn't but, it backdoors 18.1" against T7 ships

Tell me, what do 18.1s do to T7s that 16s don't? Besides overpen for minimal damage?

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

Tell me, what do 18.1s do to T7s that 16s don't? Besides overpen for minimal damage?

true

 

I think maybe more prone to overmatching angle on bow on the lower tier BB's maybe?

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What 460mm, 457mm do to Tier VII Battleships is nothing that 380mm and 410mm already do.  But the 460s are more important because of the 32mm Overmatch benefits, and that's a High Tier consideration (32mm BB bows, 32mm deck / side / bow armor found covering FR & RN BBs).  457mm guns don't do that.

 

Tier VI Warspite with her 381mm guns, Tier VI Bayern with her 380mm guns, they can Overmatch Tier VII and lower Battleships already.  What alarmed me years ago was the increasing amount of 380mm guns in Tier VI with critical Overmatch characteristics.  Warspite in particular is nasty over there because she has the accuracy to make it scary, as Tier VI Ranked has repeatedly shown.  Then even a few 406mm / 410mm armed Battleships made it into the tier also (WV'41 and Mutsu).  Wee Vee '41 doesn't have the accuracy of Tier VII Colorado, Overpens like a [edited] the Cruisers in mid tiers, but she smashes the ever living hell out of mid tier BBs.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

Yup I know... I complain about tier 8 and above AP spammers all the time...

Why? AFAIK, only Lyon and KGV/DoY, out of all T7 BBs, can't overmatch any other T7 BB. (except for Gneisenau/Scharnhorst, and I think Sinop, which can only be overmatched by Musashi)

If you're in a Colorado, it doesn't matter if it's a Nagato, Amagi, or Izumo shooting at you, they can all pen your bow.

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3 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Why? AFAIK, only Lyon and KGV/DoY, out of all T7 BBs, can't overmatch any other T7 BB. (except for Gneisenau/Scharnhorst, and I think Sinop, which can only be overmatched by Musashi)

If you're in a Colorado, it doesn't matter if it's a Nagato, Amagi, or Izumo shooting at you, they can all pen your bow.

The topic is Tier 9 18inch guns VS tier 7 ships... Not what you posted above...

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IMO, the fixation on guns >16" in the WOWS playerbase is very similar to the over-hype those guns get from fanboys of the real-life Yam-class ships, etc. 

They're just not the big deal that they're made out to be. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

I think maybe more prone to overmatching angle on bow on the lower tier BB's maybe?

I don't think so. Overmatch doesn't depend on angle. If the shell is big enough, it overmatches. If not, it doesn't.

It might be that the increased pen allows for more penetrations of angled upper belts though.

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2 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

I don't think so. Overmatch doesn't depend on angle. If the shell is big enough, it overmatches. If not, it doesn't.

It might be that the increased pen allows for more penetrations of angled upper belts though.

Ty sir. 

 

I am not the most scholarly with caliber, armor, angle degree, and over match vs auto bounce. Wasn't meaning to sound like I was arguing with Lert. Him and LWM are two of my favorite references.

Edited by Capt_Ahab1776

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8 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

The topic is Tier 9 18inch guns VS tier 7 ships... Not what you posted above...

You said that the 18" guns are way too much overmatch against T7 ships.

That's incorrect, because even if the T8&9 ships only had 15" guns, the overmatch issue would be the same.

Had you not incorrectly mentioned overmatch as a factor, I'd not have said that.

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3 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Ty sir. 

 

Wasn't meaning to sound like I was arguing with Lert. Him and LWM are two of my favorite references.

Didn't really sound like you were arguing, I was just trying to clarify. :Smile_Default:

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4 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

You said that the 18" guns are way too much overmatch against T7 ships.

That's incorrect, because even if the T8&9 ships only had 15" guns, the overmatch issue would be the same.

Had you not incorrectly mentioned overmatch as a factor, I'd not have said that.

One word...Nope 2

Georgia..

Musashi

The O P is worried about the power creep, heading down the tiers. Frankly its a problematic situations IMO.

Edited by Navalpride33

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16 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

IMO, the fixation on guns >16" in the WOWS playerbase is very similar to the over-hype those guns get from fanboys of the real-life Yam-class ships, etc. 

They're just not the big deal that they're made out to be. 

 

To be fair though, Yamato/Musashi's guns do have that overmatch on T8+ bows, and as the number of bowtankers increases, so does the importance of those guns.

But yeah, short of that 18.1" mark, it doesn't really matter.

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14 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

One word...Nope 2

Georgia..

Musashi

The O P is worried about the power creep, heading down the tiers. Frankly its a problematic situations IMO.

Georgia has 457mm, not enough to overmatch anything T7 that 16" guns won't.

Other than that, you get a little bit more damage, but that's typically balanced by smaller salvoes. (except in the case of Musashi, which I agree shouldn't be in T9) The penetration values of the shells themselves are the only thing that really matters, and nobody has shown them for discussion yet.

It certainly has the potential to be a problematic situation, but without more numbers, we're only speculating at this point.

 

Edited by Skpstr

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4 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

The significant advantage most 457mm-armed ships have is better accuracy

More importantly they overmatch the upper belt and main deck armor of 30mm cruisers (Zao, Hinden, Henri, Venezia, Goliath) so they effectively cant tank anything.

Edited by ksix

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As a West Virginia captain, 16 inchers at T6 is nirvana.  Those things are a beast.

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