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War182

Can't believe i'm agreeing . Khabarovsk need's it's range back...

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So i played my [edited] Khab before the last Nerf and it was a Beast . I loved it , It was easy to see why it had DD top DAM . After my disappointment with the Kleber I decided to finish my Grind and get my Khab .. I fell in love with the Tashkent ( i feel it's more what the Kleber should have been) . Than i got my Khab ..... Asked my friend's wth happened , last time i used this boat it was a beast ? And than they told me last nerf did this ..? I responded ,I read the patch notes didn't seem that bad .... Well i was wrong . The range is now 13.5k with AFT . This is a gun boat with 13.5 range it's not right .. Look i don't like being rained on by Khab's but 13.5 range make dodgeing anything with a 8.9 rudder time impossible . Khab can take a hit but 13.5 range cripples it. My Adv dodge range is 12k to 15 k in my gun boats . Less than 14k is really painfull to play  . So pls at least give it Tashkent's range . I know i didn't agree with buffing any Russ boat or the Khab untell i played it . Now i feel the Tashkent is better . O they took range mod away from mod's so you can't run it , or this F up would be fixed quick fast and in a hurry .Check that stats posting them

 

shot-20.02.10_03.15.16-0856.jpg

shot-20.02.10_03.15.34-0101.jpg

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Yes, I agree.

Khaba is quite unreliable now. You have to dance to close, and can't wiggle very well. They need to give it a bit of range and rudder back (not much, just a touch).

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6 hours ago, War182 said:

So i played my [edited] Khab

mate i dont think you should really say that out loud cause account sharing is technically in breach of the EULA and can result in a perma ban and you don't know if a powertripping mod may see this post and ban your account.

 

Source: joked about buying the account once ages ago and immediately got perma banned and took a while to get it back.

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Khab was cancer. They fixed it. Kleber was/is cancer x10. They are fixing it. The good old days you speak of were actually pretty horrible.

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Ha ha ha! Yes! Come to the dark side. 

 

Seriously, though. Is there anyone who really has a hard time popping Khabs and Klebers? I mean, sure, if you're driving a des moines or NC I could understand that the floaty shells get hard to land at 12km, but monty, GK, Yammy, REPUBLIQUE lazer beams, zao, hindenburg, moskva, any Itialian CA?  Are you really having a hard time landing those shots?

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Khab was terrible to fight against, it's true. It needed a nerf. That said, I agree with OP, it needs a mild buff now. Even another KM of range would be nice.

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According to the data, the Khaba never needed a nerf. It was performing well within the balance range. In fact, there were multiple Cruisers and even most BBs were out performing it before it was even nerfed the first time.

The following is what I believe should happen to the Khaba rather than revert all of the nerfs, that way it can be very unique from the Kleber style:

1.) Rudder shift needs major buff. Make it very quick on turns, I mean very quick (think RN speed retention). This will make up for the low range.

2.) Make it take 10% damage from BB AP (100% of DDs should get this mechanic including Khaba and Hara)

3.) Change the repair party to be that of the Neustrashimy (Zombie heals)


This will give Khaba a unique playstyle and make it competitively viable.

Edited by Varknyn12
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6 hours ago, War182 said:

So i played my [edited] Khab before the last Nerf and it was a Beast . I loved it , It was easy to see why it had DD top DAM . After my disappointment with the Kleber I decided to finish my Grind and get my Khab .. I fell in love with the Tashkent ( i feel it's more what the Kleber should have been) . Than i got my Khab ..... Asked my friend's wth happened , last time i used this boat it was a beast ? And than they told me last nerf did this ..? I responded ,I read the patch notes didn't seem that bad .... Well i was wrong . The range is now 13.5k with AFT . This is a gun boat with 13.5 range it's not right .. Look i don't like being rained on by Khab's but 13.5 range make dodgeing anything with a 8.9 rudder time impossible . Khab can take a hit but 13.5 range cripples it. My Adv dodge range is 12k to 15 k in my gun boats . Less than 14k is really painfull to play  . So pls at least give it Tashkent's range . I know i didn't agree with buffing any Russ boat or the Khab untell i played it . Now i feel the Tashkent is better . O they took range mod away from mod's so you can't run it , or this F up would be fixed quick fast and in a hurry .Check that stats posting them

 

shot-20.02.10_03.15.16-0856.jpg

shot-20.02.10_03.15.34-0101.jpg

 

I think a change will come in the future. I have a hard time thinking WG will let a french DD (Kleber) outplay a Russian one. Khaba will soon get its Beastmode back (just like WG put Hindenburg back to its former self after nerfing that one over and over), and then I will go back to playing my favourite Russian gunboat again.

It will be glorious!!

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, War182 said:

So i played my [edited] Khab before the last Nerf and it was a Beast . I loved it , It was easy to see why it had DD top DAM . After my disappointment with the Kleber I decided to finish my Grind and get my Khab .. I fell in love with the Tashkent ( i feel it's more what the Kleber should have been) . Than i got my Khab ..... Asked my friend's wth happened , last time i used this boat it was a beast ? And than they told me last nerf did this ..? I responded ,I read the patch notes didn't seem that bad .... Well i was wrong . The range is now 13.5k with AFT . This is a gun boat with 13.5 range it's not right .. Look i don't like being rained on by Khab's but 13.5 range make dodgeing anything with a 8.9 rudder time impossible . Khab can take a hit but 13.5 range cripples it. My Adv dodge range is 12k to 15 k in my gun boats . Less than 14k is really painfull to play  . So pls at least give it Tashkent's range . I know i didn't agree with buffing any Russ boat or the Khab untell i played it . Now i feel the Tashkent is better . O they took range mod away from mod's so you can't run it , or this F up would be fixed quick fast and in a hurry .Check that stats posting them

 

Hey you can use the Grozovoi  to do a lot of long range gun boating. Just build it purely for the guns with aft / bft build i even dropped the stealth skill on the commander. Its one of my best ships with the PR close to 1900 over 250 battles. Check the build here: 

 https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PRSD210&modules=11211&upgrades=143224&commander=PCW001&skills=275824643&ar=100&consumables=22222

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

According to the data, the Khaba never needed a nerf. It was performing well within the balance range. In fact, there were multiple Cruisers and even most BBs were out performing it before it was even nerfed the first time.

 

This kind of thinking is why we have ships like the Smolensk in the game now. Making decisions based purely on what the spreadsheet says. Yes, Khab was never OP in WR. But it was absolutely no fun to play against. Impossible to hit, when you did hit it unless it was BB AP it had a good chance of shattering or bouncing, and all the time you were getting spammed constantly. Yes it was useless at taking caps, and the damage was just farming. But there was no real counter to spamming BBs and even cruisers, it was completely one sided. The range nerf forced it in closer, making it easier to hit. Now I agree Khab isn't in a great place now, but if you give her back the range, something else needs to go (maybe the 50mm plating). WG actually rebalanced the thing based on player feedback. The numbers said it was fine. Anyone who ever played against it said otherwise. The game needs to be balanced, but you could do that by only having one ship in the game. But that wouldn't be much fun. So how fun a ship is to play and play against needs to be taken into account. It's much harder to do than balancing by the numbers, and WG has pretty much abandoned it lately. The new CVs, Smolensk, Kremlin, etc might all be "balanced" according to the numbers. But that in no way necessarily means they're fun to play or play against in game. In short, just because a ship is fine when you look at the numbers doesn't mean it doesn't need changes.

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1 hour ago, AJTP89 said:

This kind of thinking is why we have ships like the Smolensk in the game now. Making decisions based purely on what the spreadsheet says. Yes, Khab was never OP in WR. But it was absolutely no fun to play against. Impossible to hit, when you did hit it unless it was BB AP it had a good chance of shattering or bouncing, and all the time you were getting spammed constantly. Yes it was useless at taking caps, and the damage was just farming. But there was no real counter to spamming BBs and even cruisers, it was completely one sided. The range nerf forced it in closer, making it easier to hit. Now I agree Khab isn't in a great place now, but if you give her back the range, something else needs to go (maybe the 50mm plating). WG actually rebalanced the thing based on player feedback. The numbers said it was fine. Anyone who ever played against it said otherwise. The game needs to be balanced, but you could do that by only having one ship in the game. But that wouldn't be much fun. So how fun a ship is to play and play against needs to be taken into account. It's much harder to do than balancing by the numbers, and WG has pretty much abandoned it lately. The new CVs, Smolensk, Kremlin, etc might all be "balanced" according to the numbers. But that in no way necessarily means they're fun to play or play against in game. In short, just because a ship is fine when you look at the numbers doesn't mean it doesn't need changes.

1.) The Smolensk is balanced, so you have no evidence to support what you are implying

2.) "What the spreadsheet says".  That is how games are properly balanced. Based on objective evidence, the data, and proper analysis of that data with contextual evidence to support it.. The problem is WG either doesn't understand data analytics, doesn't understand even the fundamentals of statistics, doesn't understand what a balance model is... OR.... they are purposefully ignoring it.

3.) WR is not a performance metric. Balance conclusions can not be drawn from it as it is not indicative of the subject ship/type performance. It has inherent bias and multiple unquantifiable dependencies. 

4.) "no fun to play against" = a subjective complaint, and one without evidence to back it up. Simply put. If a ship is actually creating actual enjoyment issues for more than a small sample of players or players of a single ship type, it would show both in the performance of the ship being claimed as the perpetrator (e.g. Smolensk) and the ships it is supposedly countering, the players of which are making the complaints. Neither are true for the Smolensk nor were they true for the Khaba. Once people learned how to counter them, they became a non-issue regardless, even before they (Khaba) were nerfed.

5.) Balancing the game does not require homogenization of the archetypes nor does it require "1 class". That is why part of that whole "proper data analytics" includes calculating a balance range and ensuring the performance of archetypes is within that range for the average trends. Balancing the game based on the subjective whines of the vocal minority is why this game has the worst balance seen in gaming history (other than WoT which is still a WG title). 

The primary reasons why balance is non-existent in WoWs:
A.) The Ruleset is YOLO (No respawns) but Risk vs Reward is not adhered to. You have Low risk: High reward BBs and CVs, antithesis to balance in this format.

B.) Balance changes are being made on the subjective complaints of the few even though the data is contradicting the complaints

C.) Balance changes are being made by performance comparisons between ships of the same type ONLY and not against all ships of same tier. Since ALL ships from ALL types interact in the primary game mode, they should ALL be compared based on performance limited only by tier so you don't inject bias.

D.) Balance changes are being made based on the performance/popularity of ships in game modes that are NOT primary. E.g. Clan Battles. Clan Battles is NOT a primary game mode. If it was, it would be the WAY more populated, it wouldn't have gaps in between seasons, etc, etc.  Other Games, including ALL of those more successful than any WG title, are balanced based on the primary game mode ONLY for a very good reason. Currently in WoWs, we have ships getting nerfed/buffed because WG claims the ship was doing too well/poorly in Random battles... on the same hand we have ships getting nerfed/buffed because WG claims the ship was too popular in Clan battles. It is almost like a 5 year old at the wheel at this point.

Edited by Varknyn12
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1 hour ago, AJTP89 said:

The numbers said it was fine. Anyone who ever played against it said otherwise.

sounds like an entire line if the forums are anything to go by.  And yet WG do nothing

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2 hours ago, Varknyn12 said:

1.) Rudder shift needs major buff. Make it very quick on turns, I mean very quick (think RN speed retention). This will make up for the low range.

2.) Make it take 10% damage from BB AP (100% of DDs should get this mechanic including Khaba and Hara)

3.) Change the repair party to be that of the Neustrashimy (Zombie heals)


This will give Khaba a unique playstyle and make it competitively viable.

This sounds like a fun boat, but there is just no way WG will do this for existing tech tree ship.  They would sooner make an RB premium version of Khaba and call it Semipalatinsk.

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18 minutes ago, Squib_Surefire said:

sounds like an entire line if the forums are anything to go by.  And yet WG do nothing

Entire class also.

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I think the Khaba has been power crept....but at the same time I'm hesitant to see the Khaba buffed.  At least it can still take BB  regular pens.

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7 hours ago, Squib_Surefire said:

same treatement as the YY..... queue Tashkent nerf in 3 months.   Shall we set the clock?

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9 hours ago, MeglaGnome said:

Yes, I agree.

Khaba is quite unreliable now. You have to dance to close, and can't wiggle very well. They need to give it a bit of range and rudder back (not much, just a touch).

Well said ...

 

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3 hours ago, yashma said:

I think the Khaba has been power crept....but at the same time I'm hesitant to see the Khaba buffed.  At least it can still take BB  regular pens.

If i had not played it for my self and felt the pain of a 8.9 rudder with a 13.5k( with AFT) range i would agree ... But my friend's were right the nerf was to big the range is painfull ...

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I often wonder how many of these "Khaba is still good" people actually play the ship. It was my favorite ship for a long time (got in post nerf) but there is very little counterplay to competent BB/cruiser marksmen aside from sailing to the other side of the map and taking yourself out of the fight. Sure, I get big games where I can farm potatos, but I know that's what's happening and its not very rewarding. You can be outplayed almost every time by a reasonably skilled marksman and that makes it frustrating. 

 

I note that Kleber has a much more generous rudder shift. I think this is fair, so that a skilled driver has the opportunity to acutally dodge effective fire. There are plenty of kleber potatoes that I can bullseye with my zao, but I shouldn't be able to consistently bullseye a player who is better at driving than I can shoot. There is counterplay, and that is fair. Right now, I feel that Khab lacks that. 

I also want to say that I'm pretty sure there were far fewer high velocity round cruisers in the game back before the khab nerf. Now there are many and even some high velocity bbs that have no problem tagging khab at range. 

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I'm an American who I have no Russian bias here.  There is a truth to the Khabarovsk's performance was greatly reduced by three nerfs to her torp range, rudder shift, and max main gun range.  My main issue with her is the maxed gun range. She was a dream to play on the TS back in 2017.  Now that I finally got her on my main account she struggles.  So I mainly play her in CO-OP only. 

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Kleber also should have never happened in this way. the boosters and DPM are ridiculous, even if the ambush and high AP damage are fun. And the speed, 53 knots? wdf. 

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I wouldn't be surprised if the rumored changes to Unique Upgrades change the Khab upgrade. Maybe move it from slot 5 to 6. That would help. Still, a base rudder shift of 11 sec on a dd is really way too heavy. I think kleber is 4.5 or something like that, with the capability of reaching 16km range. And its faster. And doesn't eat BB ap. And the food in the chow hall is better.   

I digress...

 

(I know, I know, go play kleber. I'm going to do that when I get around to it.)

 

Edited by mrieder79

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On 2/10/2020 at 7:57 AM, thebigblue said:

Khab was cancer. They fixed it. Kleber was/is cancer x10. They are fixing it. The good old days you speak of were actually pretty horrible.

Without looking at stats (I really didn’t look) I call this player at least 50% BB. 

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