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WG: The issue with Yashima and Steel Ships. Suggested Solutions inside

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WG,

 

Yashima is a poor addition to IJN line if it is implemented as merely an upgunned Yamato with better secondaries/AA and health pool. It being priced in steel is a huge issue and slap in the face to the playerbase as well. 

 

Issues with the ship:

- 20 inch guns will simply overpen more than Yamato's 18 inch guns will. Yamato already overpens everything and that in itself is a huge problem for Yamato.

- Yashima is, effectively, worse than Yamato because Yashima will be overpenning at higher rates plus doing so with less barrels.

- The increased gun damage of the 20 inch when it overpens is not going to be higher than Yamato overpenning with 3 more barrels per salvo. 

- Yashima 20 inch guns will not pen 50mm bow plates of a certain... curiously and indecently blessed and pampered to ... ships of another country. So Yashima main guns are not even good for that.  

- Yashima's improved secondaries are of no practical use for a ship that has inherited Yamato's historically incorrect massive side and cheek citadels. Showing secondaries is giving enemies your citadels..at any range. 

- Yashima's improved secondaries do increase her AA firepower. This is perhaps the only benefit the ship has over Yamato...but it is still poor AA performance compared to other lines. If anything, that AA is not better than a T8 USN for all purposes. 

 

What would make the ship be worth owning/using other than for the 'collectible' factor?

I think the answer is quite simple: Increase its accuracy at IJN's thematic accuracy at long range. 

 

Give it the same accuracy bonus that Kremlin receives... but it should apply from 22km and above with increased accuracy benefits as range increases. So, up until 22km Yashima has the same sigma and dispersion that Yamato gets. At 22km its sigma or accuracy or both (however it is Kremlin's accuracy bonus works I dont know) increases gradually until gun's max possible range (extended gun range module+spotter plane up). 

This change alone makes Yashima be worthy of owning and using. Its benefit is highly situational and unlike Kremlin, it actually requires SKILL to land shots that far away. 

 

Steel Cost issue:

- Steel is a resource only clan members can acquire in large quantities quickly. Those who do not play in clans be it because they dont like it or because they don't have the time to play/dedicate to playing at a set schedule are being left out of acquiring this ship (and any steel ship for that matter).

- It is not possible for low play time users to acquire steel to purchase this ship or any other steel ship before the ship is taken off the market or made obsolete by a new ship. 

 

Solution:

Add a new means for players to acquire steel. This should be something that would be available at any time, at player's own schedule. Coal is a good example of this since you can get a minimum of 400 coal a day just by selecting the resource crate as reward. 

However, I do not want to make steel a 'resource crate' item. I would rather it be acquired in a way that helps the game solve another of its problems: Low tiers hardly have people playing them. I know WG has been putting energy and effort into solving this problem (no, the Research B. was not a solution to it). 

 

So... why not solve both problems at once?

Add a new resource: IRON. 

IRON is acquired by completing daily missions/challenges that apply to lower tier ships only (T1 to T6). 

IRON can be used to purchase items useful to low tier players... like removing the retrain penalty when captain is being assigned to a low tier ship. Like... paying for ship tech tree upgrades in IRON rather than free xp. 

So, now that the game has IRON and COAL all you need to do is add a conversion of COAL+IRON -> Steel . Like, 10Coal+10Iron= 1 steel. 

 

This system will encourage players to use low tier ships to farm iron and to use up their coal to acquire steel. This enables players to gain steel at their own pace...albeit slower than clan battles and special events...but you still can earn a little steel every day at your own pace and without being left out of the ability to earn steel if your work/life schedule doesn't align with the steel events/clan battles/etc. 

 

For Yashima and any other Steel ships to come out with it however, please give it a high COAL price tag instead until the IRON system is implemented. 

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Let's PLEASE not add EVEN MORE resources to an already flooded system. As it stands there is not enough available as an option for those with steel laying around. The idea that everyone should be able to get all ships regardless off what their cost is seems flawed. Those who don't play competitive because it's not worth it to them for the ships it gets you access to accept that they won't get all the steel ships. That's fine. Further devaluing steel will just do more and more to kill competitive play which is already getting worse. Even for me, I have 26k steel with nothing to spend it on, my only motivation to play competitive modes as a result is for my team, but most players once they have the steel they need through other means, they just won't play competitive and the queue will get EVEN longer with even smaller variety.

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Steel seems like an odd choice.

The ships looks like it will mostly appeal to the lower half of the player base, those that are less likely to have lots of steel. 

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Tl:dr

OP says yashima is trash but is upset that he won't be able to obtain it as steel is an exclusive resource. 

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11 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Tl:dr

OP says yashima is trash but is upset that he won't be able to obtain it as steel is an exclusive resource. 

I collect IJN ships. Sure I want it. That does not change the fact I can see Yashima is a defective Yamato. It'd be nice to be able to play it and have at least something that makes its worth riding. 

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11 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Tl:dr

OP says yashima is trash but is upset that he won't be able to obtain it as steel is an exclusive resource. 

My thoughts exactly. 

 

Steel is fine. If you dont want to join a clan, there is still plenty of steel to earn in ranked battles. Even some small amounts in missions and stuff.

 

Yashima isnt even in testing yet. I will wait until then to complain about her

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I sincerely hope Yashima is trash, so that only super unicums are able to get (adequate but not stellar) results with her. Unique rewards for competitive gameplay should offer a challenge, not a titanium seal club. Do i think the regular introduction of powercreeping Steel reward ships a good thing? Most definitely not. I am pessimistic, going by the WG track record, this new reward ship will be obscenely OP too. Yamato, until recently, has had one unique advantage, its guns, and one big disadvantage, secondary and AA armament. Yashima improves the guns, and gives it solid secondary/AA, which, if this goes through, will be another example of this : 

11619876-3x2-700x467.jpg

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39 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

Let's PLEASE not add EVEN MORE resources to an already flooded system. As it stands there is not enough available as an option for those with steel laying around. The idea that everyone should be able to get all ships regardless off what their cost is seems flawed. Those who don't play competitive because it's not worth it to them for the ships it gets you access to accept that they won't get all the steel ships. That's fine. Further devaluing steel will just do more and more to kill competitive play which is already getting worse. Even for me, I have 26k steel with nothing to spend it on, my only motivation to play competitive modes as a result is for my team, but most players once they have the steel they need through other means, they just won't play competitive and the queue will get EVEN longer with even smaller variety.

Not 'regardless of what their cost is'. The IRON system requires far more time spent and 'grinding' than clan battle participants or those with the time to play and dedicate to the scarce events in which non-clan players can gain steel from. Its a schedule thing. IRON converted to Steel is more 'expensive' in long term play time cost... but it has no schedule limitations. 

Funny thing that you call steel ships as being the special snowflake for 'competitive' play. Here, how about we ask WG to make 'competitive' ships have a price that requires both steel AND doubloons to acquire. That increases the 'competitiveness' of it doesn't it? Does that make you feel super special? 

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2 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

I sincerely hope Yashima is trash, so that only super unicums are able to get (adequate but not stellar) results with her. Unique rewards for competitive gameplay should offer a challenge, not a titanium seal club. Do i think the regular introduction of powercreeping Steel reward ships a good thing? Most definitely not. I am pessimistic, going by the WG track record, this new reawrd ship will be obscenely OP too. Yamato, until recently, has had one unique advantage, its guns, and one big disadvantage, secondary and AA armament. Yashima improves the guns, and gives it solid secondary/AA, which, if this goes through, will be another example of this : 

11619876-3x2-700x467.jpg

Except Yashima's secondaries have now been nerfed.

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I present the devil's advocate as an alternative:  Why tie ship exclusivity to competitive where you could have given fancy exclusive cosmetics + piles of doubloons instead?

Either way, changing status quo of the Steel ship issue for regular players will not change.  Without serious uproar, nothing will change.  

Companies only change long-standing policies within their games if it gains enough attention to threaten their bottom line, or face legal issues.  Whether or not I think this idea is a good idea doesn't matter:  WG has demonstrated that they think little on our feedback in general.

Plus as @Kebobstuzov has mentioned, considering player retention in competitive is an issue.  Steel ships being a primary motivator would indeed hurt this, although I would have to argue that Steel ships to motivate players is a band aid on a hemorrhaging wound that needs a better solution.  

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3 minutes ago, TheKrimzonD3mon said:

Except Yashima's secondaries have now been nerfed.

not enuff'

Bring them down to or below Yamato levels, and we can consider the negotiations in preparation of the prologue of a civilized discussion.

2 minutes ago, CaliburxZero said:

I present the devil's advocate as an alternative:  Why tie ship exclusivity to competitive where you could have given fancy exclusive cosmetics + piles of doubloons instead?

 

 

this ^

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I'm missing how the steel access is a real problem, but I'm of the opinion that not EVERY boat needs to be easily available to EVERY player.

 

YMMV

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27 minutes ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

Steel seems like an odd choice.

The ships looks like it will mostly appeal to the lower half of the player base, those that are less likely to have lots of steel. 

Actually based on how the Yashima is shaping up steel seems like the logical choice and here is the reason why. Steel ships will be more OP in certain ways, but have a lot of severe drawbacks to balance them out. Coal, FXP, tech tree ships and a fair number of premiums are more rounded in nature with steadier all around performers.

Take Somers as an example, gets a couple extra torpedoes over Gearing which gives it a heavier torpedo attack in single attack quality of torpedoes. But then Somers falls short on every  category compared except for how many torpedoes Gearing carries on it’s deck.

Stalingrad will Pershing from side of AP hits just as quickly if not more so than Moskava especially since Stalingrad has that nice hype reputation on it.

Compare Black to tech tree and you can see Black’s strength, but also her drawbacks she pays with.

Flint has brutally thin armor, but the same is true for it’s closest sister ship Atlanta. So it’s actually one of the better steel ships in terms of quality as her Sister is so much like her.

 

You likely can see sort of a recurring pattern here right? And Yashima carrying even 1 gun of 20” caliber would bring a lot of hyper upon it, but it is carrying dual 20” gun turrets. And sheer shell size is not everything in WOWs, or in the real world for that matter. But how many can be fired in a salvo, the accuracy, range, and how fast the guns can be reloaded. Assuming the pen of the smaller caliber guns or rival ships has sufficient pen and damage to even just somewhat deal with enemy armor.

Even between Yoshino and a Yamato my Yoshino can sometimes pull more damage from a battle than Yamato if over pens are a risk factor in the targets as was facing thanks to the 12” shells still having good pen, but less chance of overpen than 18.1” shells with the larger shells mainly being useful against the heavier targets. So you can imagine what 20” shells are going to be like and having to switch ammo types far more often as targets will be even more demanding of specific ammo types with Yashima.

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2 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

not enuff'

Bring them down to or below Yamato levels, and we can consider the negotiations in preparation of the prologue of a civilized discussion.

They have a base range of 6km, now. With a full build, they should be around 9.1, including flag. Yamato has a 10.6km full build range.

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11 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

Not 'regardless of what their cost is'. The IRON system requires far more time spent and 'grinding' than clan battle participants or those with the time to play and dedicate to the scarce events in which non-clan players can gain steel from. Its a schedule thing. IRON converted to Steel is more 'expensive' in long term play time cost... but it has no schedule limitations. 

Funny thing that you call steel ships as being the special snowflake for 'competitive' play. Here, how about we ask WG to make 'competitive' ships have a price that requires both steel AND doubloons to acquire. That increases the 'competitiveness' of it doesn't it? Does that make you feel super special? 

You do realize steel is literally the descendant of Stalingrad flags and was meant to be purely from competitive before they started giving it away for Christmas and a purchaseable campaign.? And you didn't address the point at all besides whining, again. In order for competitive modes to remain viable there needs to be a real reason to play. And again, adding "IRON" in all caps idk why, as yet another resource is ridiculous. We have coal for everyone all the time and steel geared more towards competitive. Iron just sounds like coal rebranded and seperate.

 

giphy (1).gif

Edited by Kebobstuzov
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1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

Add a new resource

Are you out of your [edited]mind?

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17 minutes ago, TheKrimzonD3mon said:

They have a base range of 6km, now. With a full build, they should be around 9.1, including flag. Yamato has a 10.6km full build range.

contact my assistant-deputy-under secretary for the preliminary arrangements.

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add a new resource . lol 

how about they just let you convert coal to steel . maybe something like 200:1 

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1.) The entire Steel for unique ships system is already bad for the health of the game. I can name at least a handful of other games, all of which are  far more successful than any WG title ONLY offer cosmetic rewards for their competitive modes yet have way more players and ZERO issues getting people to participate in their competitive modes. If you need some kind of golden carrot to get people to participate in your competitive mode, that just speaks on how horrible you have designed that mode and how horribly balanced your game is. If the competitive mode was designed properly, and your game had some sense of balanced gameplay, people would flock to your competitive mode even absent any serious reward simply for enjoyment gained and natural "bragging rights".

2.) Unique ships for steel do not need to be and should not (ever) be superior to any tech-tree ship. We already have Bourgogne tied with Kremlin as the highest performing ships in the game, and also according to the data, VERY overpowered.

Edited by Varknyn12
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21 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

In order for competitive modes to remain viable there needs to be a real reason to play.

you mean to tell me after all these years, that.... you don't play (just) for FUN?

shocking/

(I'm sure what you really need is something to show how much you have humiliated the opposition, now that Clan Battle reward ships have lost their initial exclusivity due to Steel inflation, how about a special and unique flag instead? I mean, nobody really cares who wins CB any more, because there is nothing unique to CB victory about Stalingrad or the other steel ships)

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1 minute ago, Varknyn12 said:

1.) The entire Steel for unique ships system is already bad for the health of the game. I can name at least a handful of other games, all of which are  far more successful than any WG title ONLY offer cosmetic rewards for their competitive modes yet have way more players and ZERO issues getting people to participate in their competitive modes. If you need some kind of golden carrot to get people to participate in your competitive mode, that just speaks on how horrible you have designed that mode and how horribly balanced your game is. If the competitive mode was designed properly, and your game had some sense of balanced gameplay, people would flock to your competitive mode even absent any serious reward simply for enjoyment gained. 

2.) Unique ships for steel do not need to be and should not (ever) be superior to any tech-tree ship. We already have Bourgogne tied with Kremlin as the highest performing ships in the game, and also according to the data, VERY overpowered.

Having ships for steel obviously didn't push you away from the game and it certainly didn't keep you from spending money. 

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I won't be happy until I can spend real money to purchase a resource, I can use to purchase other resources which I can then convert into a separate resource, which I can exchange for ship, which I will then sell for yet another resource.  

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1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

- 20 inch guns will simply overpen more than Yamato's 18 inch guns will. Yamato already overpens everything and that in itself is a huge problem for Yamato.

For some very odd reason though that instead of the usual 1/6 of the caliber to calculate the armor needed to arm the AP, WG went with a insane 1/3 making the armor needed to arm Yashima's AP an absloutely nuts 170mm... If you fire at anything lighter than a Large Cruiser you will do nothing but overmatch... For some reason...

 

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

Yashima 20 inch guns will not pen 50mm bow plates of a certain... curiously and indecently blessed and pampered to ... ships of another country. So Yashima main guns are not even good for that.  

It won't even overtamatch the 38mm of the US BBs, 510mm is basically completely useless in game as 35mm overtmach only matters for Fuso's deck armor...

 

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

Yashima's improved secondaries are of no practical use for a ship that has inherited Yamato's historically incorrect massive side and cheek citadels. Showing secondaries is giving enemies your citadels..at any range. 

- Yashima's improved secondaries do increase her AA firepower. This is perhaps the only benefit the ship has over Yamato...but it is still poor AA performance compared to other lines. If anything, that AA is not better than a T8 USN for all purposes. 

Except for some balans reason WG just removed her "improved" range on the secondaries... It has even less range than Yamato now... 

 

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

Give it the same accuracy bonus that Kremlin receives... but it should apply from 22km and above with increased accuracy benefits as range increases. So, up until 22km Yashima has the same sigma and dispersion that Yamato gets. At 22km its sigma or accuracy or both (however it is Kremlin's accuracy bonus works I dont know) increases gradually until gun's max possible range (extended gun range module+spotter plane up). 

This change alone makes Yashima be worthy of owning and using. Its benefit is highly situational and unlike Kremlin, it actually requires SKILL to land shots that far away. 

Please no... Instead of making her a sniper, how about making her a brawler by adding armor to the cheek in the form of the torpedo bulge all across the ship and increased belt armor that the A-140 improvement was meant to have? Yes, this is A-140, 510mm does NOT equal A-150.

We do not need yet another long range IJN ship as those tend to be extremely boring to play, give us what many IJN fans have been wanting for years: a proper IJN Brawler. 

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

So... why not solve both problems at once?

Add a new resource: IRON. 

IRON is acquired by completing daily missions/challenges that apply to lower tier ships only (T1 to T6). 

IRON can be used to purchase items useful to low tier players... like removing the retrain penalty when captain is being assigned to a low tier ship. Like... paying for ship tech tree upgrades in IRON rather than free xp. 

So, now that the game has IRON and COAL all you need to do is add a conversion of COAL+IRON -> Steel . Like, 10Coal+10Iron= 1 steel. 

 

This system will encourage players to use low tier ships to farm iron and to use up their coal to acquire steel. This enables players to gain steel at their own pace...albeit slower than clan battles and special events...but you still can earn a little steel every day at your own pace and without being left out of the ability to earn steel if your work/life schedule doesn't align with the steel events/clan battles/etc. 

 

For Yashima and any other Steel ships to come out with it however, please give it a high COAL price tag instead until the IRON system is implemented. 

I honestly agree with you, Steel is extremely hard to get. Have been getting to Rank 5 (sanity is more important than a in game resource) since... Rank season 6 or 7 and I'm still at 14k steel... Well technically 19k because I used 5k to buy Smolensk before I though that WG was going to remove her MUCH sooner.... How playing for around years only get you half a single T10 Steel ship...? It just blows my mind...

Also I cannot play RB because I live in Europe and only can play at night during holidays, so yeah me and many others are basically fcked in the Steel department.

 

Personally I don't think that you should be forced to play lower Tiers as that would create a lot of new sealcrubbers sailing around in GC, Kamikaze or Hosho wrecking all the new players... But if it's free for all Tiers that could be much better. I understand why you would want to encourage people to play low Tiers but IMHO this is not the way. 

Other than that, WG may change the conversion rates but it's a very good idea, I absolutely love it. 

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2 minutes ago, yashma said:

I won't be happy until I can spend real money to purchase a resource, I can use to purchase other resources which I can then convert into a separate resource, which I can exchange for ship, which I will then sell for yet another resource.  

well quite, what is wrong with our old fashioned credits? I have billions of credits, with nothing to spend them on.

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