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Bill_Halsey

How big of a game changer is 510mm vs 460mm?

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Eh, you don't want to be hit with it, definitely.

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The 510 overpens even more than the 460. This would be a question for Miss Mouse, I would think it matters about the ballistics of each.

Edited by Sovereigndawg
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11 minutes ago, _Caliph_ said:

Eh, you don't want to be hit with it, definitely.

Being smacked by a 406mm in the cit ain't fun either.

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24 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

Can someone show a distance vs armor pen curve for this?

1063023009_tenor(3).gif.ae37674117aa4123a6ee262f99d3cfb1.gif

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Loaded up a quick chart on my phone. No extra overmatch that matters, and about 100mm extra penetration at pretty much all ranges. Yashima shells will be SLIGHTLY lower at pretty much all ranges, but the difference is basically negligible.

Screenshot_20200206-231538_Chrome.thumb.jpg.6c83e65ac4fd6486f44c2f1ccb920faf.jpg

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How big of a game changer is it? Close to none.  510mm will overpen more often, and anything the 510 overmatchs so does the 457mm.  Basically treat 510mm like you would a 457mm.

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Not known yet but it could be pretty substantial. Everyone harps on the 32mm but ignores the massive amount of penetration it gains as well as shell damage. If the accuracy is great it could be pretty devastating. Look at Pobeda/Slava-that was all accuracy and pen.

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34 minutes ago, JToney3449 said:

How big of a game changer is it? Close to none.  510mm will overpen more often, and anything the 510 overmatchs so does the 457mm.  Basically treat 510mm like you would a 457mm.

Not true.  457mm cannot overmatch 32mm plating.  Now 460mm, that is different.  510mm offers nothing over 460mm.

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510 gains very little in this game over 460 since it doesn’t break any substantial or even worthwhile overmatch thresholds (I think there’s maybe one piece of inner armor on one of the Russian cruisers that will now be overmatchable but that’s it), and at the same time has a longer reload and is more likely to overpen because of the extra 100mm of pen (so lower effective DPM). If it gets the same dispersion curve of Yamato as well as the sigma and improved accuracy that LM Yamato has, the slightly slower shells will have a greater tendency to group toward the middle of the vertical dispersion instead of overshooting or undershooting, but even then Yamato would be the better choice unless Yashima gets significant buffs before release.

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It will work well against BB's but because of less guns the gain could be wiped out and it will overpen everything else even more than 18" does.

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4 hours ago, JToney3449 said:

How big of a game changer is it? Close to none.  510mm will overpen more often, and anything the 510 overmatchs so does the 457mm.  Basically treat 510mm like you would a 457mm.

This is 100% wrong.

457mm cannot Overmatch 32mm, which 460mm (Yamato-class) can.  510mm is larger, so it will Overmatch what 457mm can't.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds#AP_overmatch

457mm is 1mm short for game purposes in being able to Overmatch 32mm armor, i.e. High Tier Battleship Bows.

 

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Considering you get 3 less barrels and 35 seconds reload it's a pretty huge game changer, in a negative way.

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9 hours ago, _Caliph_ said:

Eh, you don't want to be hit with it, definitely.

fair assessment.

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I'd argue nine 460mm guns are scarier than six 510mm guns

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Armchair game-admirals are still only focused on the guns and their diameter.... there's a lot more to balance than *just* gun diameter and pen characteristics. If it was, then the very lowly armed Smolensk with 130mm guns, or the unimpressive 152mm Belfast, or the unassuming 4 gun 130mm gunned Gremy would not all be some of the most powerful ships in their tiers. Soft stats matter and now that she is confirmed to be a Steel ship, one can reasonably expect some tom-foolery with her soft stats. Are any of the other Steel ships just off-brand, gun shifted versions of their tree counterparts? They all have soft stat changes, non reflective on cursory glances of their hard stats. By all accounts Bourg should be patently worse than Alsace; she's at a higher tier, thus missing out at bullying T7's, and facing a near majority of ships she is incapable of overmatching. And yet thanks to her wacky gun stats *beyond* Diameter and pen-curves, she is one of the most dangerous ships in the game thanks to her soft stats.

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2 hours ago, _RC1138 said:

Armchair game-admirals are still only focused on the guns and their diameter.... there's a lot more to balance than *just* gun diameter and pen characteristics. If it was, then the very lowly armed Smolensk with 130mm guns, or the unimpressive 152mm Belfast, or the unassuming 4 gun 130mm gunned Gremy would not all be some of the most powerful ships in their tiers. Soft stats matter and now that she is confirmed to be a Steel ship, one can reasonably expect some tom-foolery with her soft stats. Are any of the other Steel ships just off-brand, gun shifted versions of their tree counterparts? They all have soft stat changes, non reflective on cursory glances of their hard stats. By all accounts Bourg should be patently worse than Alsace; she's at a higher tier, thus missing out at bullying T7's, and facing a near majority of ships she is incapable of overmatching. And yet thanks to her wacky gun stats *beyond* Diameter and pen-curves, she is one of the most dangerous ships in the game thanks to her soft stats.

You forgot Kutuzov. The original HE long range rail gun spammer. 

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1 minute ago, Bill_Halsey said:

You forgot Kutuzov. The original HE long range rail gun spammer. 

I didn't forget it, I just didn't include it. The same way I didn't include the Kami Sisters who, on paper, are nearly identical to the in-tree Minekaze, but certain slight changes push one into meh and the others in straight overpowered.

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All you need to know is Yashima 20 inch guns will overpen everything for slightly more damage than Yamato overpens its targets. 

The loss of barrels vs Yamato makes that slight increase in overpen damage still not add up Yamato overpenning with more shells. 

 

Yashima 20 inch gun will NOT have any better accuracy or any practical benefit in terms of penetration over Yamato. Remember, Yamato already overpens anything except soviet bias 50mm bow plates. 

Yashima 20 inch gun will NOT pen soviet bias idiocy 50mm nose plates. 

 

Slower reload. Same range. Less gun barrels. Same moronic and completely a-historical IJN hate citadel layout with no better protection than Yamato has. 

Only thing Yashima brings thats better than Yamato is its secondaries. 

...and go use your secondaries and get blarped in those gigantic citadels. /shrug

 

Ship isn't worth the steel. It'd hardly be worth coal. Definitely not worth doubloons. 

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5 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

Slower reload. Same range. Less gun barrels. Same moronic and completely a-historical IJN hate citadel layout with no better protection than Yamato has. 

Ship isn't worth the steel. It'd hardly be worth coal. Definitely not worth doubloons. 

I'm thinking this ^^^^.

Excellent post @Skyfaller.

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Not much the max damage per shell will be interesting to see. Particularly the HE will be interesting. No big deal on any overmatch or mechanics improvements.

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31 minutes ago, paradat said:

Not much the max damage per shell will be interesting to see. Particularly the HE will be interesting. No big deal on any overmatch or mechanics improvements.

Yashima || Yamato differences bolded. 

Hit points – 97200. || Hit points – 97200.

Plating - 32 mm. with some 50mm in very small areas on deck side armor. Practical effect is negligible.  || Plating - 32 mm 

Main battery - 3x2 510 mm. || Main battery - 3x3 460 mm
Firing range - 26.6 km. Dispersion at this range - 272 m. || Firing range - 26.6 km. Dispersion at this range - 272 m.
Sigma – 2.10. || Sigma – 2.10.
Maximum HE shell damage – 8100. Chance to cause fire – 40%. HE initial velocity - 720 m/s. ||  Maximum HE shell damage – 7300. Chance to cause fire – 35%. HE initial velocity - 805 m/s
Maximum AP shell damage - 19400. AP initial velocity - 720 m/s. || Maximum AP shell damage - 14800. AP initial velocity - 780 m/s.
Reload time - 35.0 s. || Reload time - 30.0 s.
180 degree turn time - 60.0 s. || 180 degree turn time - 60.0 s.

 

The increase in HE damage is pretty much negligible really. HE pen would be 85mm, with IFHE it'd be 110mm. You wont be doing citadel damage to cruisers with it. As for HE damage itself, its really not that big of a difference to Yamato's HE..1k more damage before reduction is not noticeable at all. 

AP does have a noticeable increase in damage... but the also noticeable increase in pen capability (read: more overpens) and the loss of 3 barrels simply puts all damage far below Yamato's output in practical application. 

 

To be honest, a Yashima Hull with Yoshino main guns would've been a far more effective ship IN THIS GAME. I'd call it Project 420. Peace on!

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