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SidTheBlade

Most Extreme Examples of Power Creep

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This thread is not a complaint, or invitation to complain. It is about weak ships for their tier, that are exposed very badly when they come up against ships two tiers higher. For example, the Massachusetts and Asashio are perfectly OK against tier X, even though they are tier VIII. They are strong enough to cope with two tier higher, even is they don't shine as they might against their own or lower tiers. However, some ships are weak against their own tier, and when matched against higher tiers, they begin to become absurd.

An example, in my view, is the Schors. I recently played it, a tier 7 ship with no armour and 4km torps, against a mostly tier 9 fleet. It was horribly out of place. With 27k HP, 4km torps and meh guns, it was well out of its league against JBs, Georgias, Alaskas, Ibukis, and even the tier 9 DDs, like Fletcher.

What ships have you all played that are weak in their own tier, and slightly absurd when matched two tiers higher?

I am curious to know if the ships tend to come from the same tiers, especially tiers 7 and 8.  There seems to be significant power creep in tiers 9 and 10, leaving many ships in 7 and 8 too far behind to make any useful competition.

If that is true, do we need to think about 12 tiers?

Finer graduations would add variety, and increase choice. 

Also, do all tier 9 and 10 cruisers need radar as a consumable?

Is it, in practical reality, a mandatory feature of high tier cruisers play?

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There is a jump in capabilities between T7 and T8. There's a very marked increase in capabilities between T8 and T10.  the saving grace in T7 ships is you are far more often to be the top tier rather than the bottom dweller. T8 ships tend to be lower in the pecking order about 80 % of the time until they made changes to the MM. 

No, you only want T12's if you want anti ship missles, jet planes and lasers.

 

Just remember you get more XP farming when hitting a higher tier ship. 

 

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Some of the issues are the players themselves.  For example, you complain about Schors having to deal with Tier IX games as a Tier VII Cruiser.  The reality is of the Tier VII Cruisers, she is the most capable of dealing with the actual meta of Tier VIII-IX combat... Long Range Combat.  You complain about the very short ranged torpedoes on Schors.  The truth is if you are using those torps on Schors, you are too far forward and gave enemies the opportunity to delete you where Schors is at her worst:  Close ranged fighting.  Keep her at range, use WASD keys, and spam away.  That's the simple truth with Russian Cruisers.

 

I will say, Tier V ships in general are the worst in dealing with being bottom tier in a Tier VII game.  The Battleships and Cruisers there, minus OP Premiums like Caesar, fare badly.  There's Cruisers there that get Overmatched by 152mm AP and Citadeled.  The Battleships in Tier V don't hold up to Tier VII and they also get Overmatched to hell and back by 380mm+ armed BBs.  By Tier VII, there's tons of 380mm - 410mm armed BBs.  After all, people liked to play Tier VII specifically to beat up on Tier V.

 

The other group of ships that struggle when bottom tier:

 

Mid tier DDs that deal with Tier VIII-IX DDs that have access to Full Stealth Builds / CSM1 upgrade.  It's not a contest.  Akizuki vs bad concealment mid tier DDs is a massacre.  Kidd, same thing, made worse by the fact she is one of the few DDs in the game with Repair Party access.  Lo Yang prowling with her Hydro and Stealth against bad concealment mid tier DDs? :cap_haloween:

 

Tier VIII Cruisers that don't have Repair Party dealing with Tier IX-X games where everything that isn't a DD/CV has Repair Party is at a heavy disadvantage.  Even the Tier IX-X Cruisers have standard access to that consumable, and they will easily win by attrition against Tier VIII Cruisers that don't have this consumable.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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I would not like to see tier 11 or 12.  However, it would be awesome to see tier 0 or -1.   

As far as actual ships that I found difficult to play when uptiered, I would have to say the T8 Monarch has a hard go of it facing any T8 BB or above.  Sure, she has a nice British heal ability, but man you can get hurt from just about any angle.  Couple that with meh guns and range, with a low health pool and you have a slog to get up to the T9 Lion.   

I also had a really rough time with the Jutland when I first got her.  It wasn't until I grabbed IFHE that my guns could do any real damage, and her top speed is low when being chased by some of the other comparabale DDs.  With IFHE and concealment now, it has been a lot better.

Lastly, I am sure everyone feels sorry for CVs when they are uptiered.  :cap_book:

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Bismarck is woefully inept at high-tier play. Her main guns are:

  • Inaccurate
  • Slow-turning
  • Low-caliber and
  • offer a low volume per salvo.

This combined with her lack of armor (she can prevent cits but eats full pens) makes her impossible to use from a competitive standpoint. I grinded to her for historical reasons, and I am by no means a noob, but even with a 14-point captain I find her performance high-tier fairly inconsistent. She'll club low-tiers, but she's missing something at Tier 8...

Edited by FullMetal_Inferno
lol can't spell

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There are definitely some ships that are power-crept.

Schors isn't one of them. Stand off HE spamming, she does really well. And the guns are definitely not meh, IFHE and you're downright scary.

Example A IMO is Colorado. She was adequate (barely) when it was her and the Nagato. Scharnhorst made the speed worse, but the CO still had a gun advantage over even the Gneis. KGV again was OK, as CO still won on guns. But the speed was becoming a bigger and bigger issue as all other ships were significantly faster. Lyon wasn't a big deal either. Then came Sinop. Sinop is just flat out better than the CO. Faster, better armor, better guns, the CO has no advantage. Now Sinop is OP IMO, but it's the final nail for the CO, she's just not competitive at T7 any more. 8 16" guns with a mediocre armor scheme going 22knts against 30knt ships with solid armor and 9 or more 16" guns. Yeah that's called power creep. Actually the RU BBs powercrept everyone, (USN has maybe speed over them now, but otherwise is at best equal).

There are other examples, but that's the most egregious right now. How people can say Sinop isn't OP when compared to the likes of CO is beyond me.

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2 hours ago, SidTheBlade said:

This thread is not a complaint, or invitation to complain. It is about weak ships for their tier, that are exposed very badly when they come up against ships two tiers higher.

You should complain... IMO your examples dont measure up to your complaint.

Now if you would've use high tier BBs vs cruisers... Then yes power creep is noticeable, you can tell by the difference in game experience of 2017 in the same high tiers. 

That high tier experience, will eventually spill over to mid tiers..  Something to look forward too in 2020.

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23 minutes ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

Bismarck is woefully inept at high-tier play. Her main guns are:

  • Inaccurate
  • Slow-turning
  • Low-caliber and
  • offer a low volume per salvo.

This combined with her lack of armor (she can prevent cits but eats full pens) makes her impossible to use from a competitive standpoint. I grinded to her for historical reasons, and I am by no means a noob, but even with a 14-point captain I find her performance high-tier fairly inconsistent. She'll club low-tiers, but she's missing something at Tier 8...

Lack of armor on a German BB?

So not only is it difficult to gun a German BB for Citadels, now you don't want to be Pen'ed also? :Smile_smile:

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I'm just saying that 406mm + can pen from any angle. Considering you'll be in T9 and T10 battles, it's not adequate against other BBs.

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15 minutes ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

I'm just saying that 406mm + can pen from any angle. Considering you'll be in T9 and T10 battles, it's not adequate against other BBs.

406mm won't pen at any angle.  The only one that has a glimmer of hope of doing that is 460mm against 32mm or less armor, solely due to Overmatch mechanics.  Now, 406mm does have Overmatch advantages that the 380mm / 381mm armed ships don't have, that I will never deny.

 

Regardless, it hasn't stopped Bismarck from doing better than North Carolina and her 16"/45 guns with 2.0 Sigma.  4th Quarter 2019 server Dmg Avg (2019-09-28 thru 2019-12-28):

Bismarck 51,548

North Carolina 48,161

The fun part was those Bismarck damage numbers for 4th Quarter 2019, most of that is before the German BB Dispersion -> USN BB Dispersion model update in December.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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How well a ship up-tiers isn't an element of power creep.  There have always been ships that up-tier better than others.  For example, tier VII destroyers up-tier very poorly because they lose out on the concealment game to tier VIII destroyers grace of their access to Concealment Modification 1 in the 5th upgrade slot.  Tier V battleships lose out to tier VI+ battleships as the former's deck and extremities are only 19mm, capable of being overmatched by all of the tier VI+ battleship guns no matter how they angle.  This is largely repeated with tier VI and VII battleships versus those that are tier VIII+ once 32mm extremities come into play.  Contrarily, any cruiser with decent, 152mm HE shells remains a credible threat so long as they have unlocked Inertial Fuse for HE Shells and sufficient range (or smoke) from which to use them.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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WG is taking steps to limit the pain of being uptiered by insuring that you are top tier as much as bottom tier. I still think that the Random battles would be a lot better if it was just a 2 tier MM but then who am I, just another player.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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3 hours ago, SidTheBlade said:

An example, in my view, is the Schors. I recently played it, a tier 7 ship with no armour and 4km torps, against a mostly tier 9 fleet. It was horribly out of place. With 27k HP, 4km torps and meh guns, it was well out of its league against JBs, Georgias, Alaskas, Ibukis, and even the tier 9 DDs, like Fletcher.

You can't go around comparing T7 ships to T9 ships and expect them to look good.

You can only compare ships within their own tier. And on that metric,  Schors is an ok ship. Not terribly good, but not bad either.

The best example of a power-creep in my mind is the Khabarovsk. Quite soundly outclassed by the Kleber in most hands.

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3 hours ago, Bill_Halsey said:

There is a jump in capabilities between T7 and T8. There's a very marked increase in capabilities between T8 and T10.  the saving grace in T7 ships is you are far more often to be the top tier rather than the bottom dweller. T8 ships tend to be lower in the pecking order about 80 % of the time until they made changes to the MM. 

No, you only want T12's if you want anti ship missles, jet planes and lasers.

 

Just remember you get more XP farming when hitting a higher tier ship. 

 

The bolded section is no longer true.  The changes to the MM to protect Tier VIII mean that Tier VII usually faces tier VIIIs and, to be blunt, from a Tier VII perspective there is little difference between a Tier VIII and Tier IX.

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3 hours ago, SidTheBlade said:

An example, in my view, is the Schors. I recently played it, a tier 7 ship with no armour and 4km torps, against a mostly tier 9 fleet. It was horribly out of place. With 27k HP, 4km torps and meh guns

Shchors may have some issues, but I don't think guns are one of them. They're quite good at dealing damage with IFHE, and are still decent firestarters.

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