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XurMP

Super Heavy AP is the best AP

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Alright... First of: Yes, I know why is so powerful and that is was way heavier than any other AP.

 

Let's get it straight: Super Heavy AP and improved pen angles are dumb. 

How is that specially things like Des Moines and Alaska can citadel almost any ship (even some BBs) at very sharp angles yet the IN THEORY Japanese AP with better pen (in most cases) is so worthless? 

 

What exemplifies this best is comparing Azuma to Alaska or Yoshino to PR. IN PAPER it seems like the IJN CBs should have better AP due to better flat pen and ballistics yet in game you can only get citadels on HMS CLs and every game with Alaska or PR is at very least 5 citadels. Yes, US Super Heavy AP has better AP pen angles but it ABSOLUTELY SHOULDN'T make that much of a difference. You can take your Moines or Salem and farm citadels left right and center while still having very solid HE yet Zao's AP is almost worthless except for the odd Dev Strike in some broadside Mino.

 

Is there some hidden stat that makes Super Heavy AP pen WAY BETTER very angled ships (over 70 degrees) like some shells have in [edited] or just some kind of working as intended? Although wouldn't be surprised if it was the second option as you can citadel a Minotaur with Z-52 at over 6km when the guns only have 88mm of penetration at that range and Mino has 101mm of citadel armor... 

 

What makes this unfair is that unlike Germans or Japanese, you don't have that B S of "you get very good AP but worthless HE" like all the Germans do or crappy AP for the Japanese CAs. US CAs (and CBs) have extremely good AP while having quite good HE, not the best but definitely not bad in any sense as they have both good fire chance and decent damage. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love playing the Salem and both CBs (yes I think Salem is just a upgraded Des Moines and PR is really not a bad ship at all, you can do insane dev strikes) and the Super Heavy AP is a complete blast to use but if Germans and Japanese have to choose then some aspects should be nerfed, IMHO the fire chance or HE damage. 

 

Also PLEASE DON'T say that the balancing factor is slow shells because it's quite easy to aim even at 18km (with both Salem using range mod and the CBs), you might struggle to hit DDs but BBs and Cruisers are easy targets at all ranges, DDs under 12km giving extra leading are also easy targets. 

 

Just as a side note: Yes, I didn't mention the ridiculous Soviet AP because Russian Bias used to be a meme but not is a sad reality... Stalingrad's AP with BOTH improved angles and the insane velocity is completely out of any balance discussion as it's just Stalin's wet dream. But is the only Cruiser AP I would rate higher than US Super Heavy Shells as I would take Salem's guns any day over Moskva's and Kron gunners shared the beer party with the German gunners so they are also drunk.

 

Is it a super important topic right now? No, of course not. But maybe by nerfing a little bit the HE specially for both Des Memes sisters we could encourage the usage of AP and help with the HE spamming issue.

 

 

What made me do this post was this game, it shouldn't be fine that a cruiser can get 26 citadels in a single game and nuke a full health Yoshino in 3 salvos with ONLY the front guns. 

 

 

 

283.615 damage Salem 26 CITADEL (Confederated + Dreadnought + Kraken + First Blood + High Caliber).png

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GG!

Mahalo,

-Hapa

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Working as intended. The improved angles make things much more likely to pen at weird angles. As for citadel penetrations at odd angles and ranges, that happens with all shells, WG AP pen mechanics are weird, strange things happen all the time, the most common one being the amazing torpedo bulges, which apparently completely mitigate damage from large caliber AP penetrations.

Des Memes is fine. You go broadside in anything at less than 10km, expect to be deleted. Outside 10km, well, the flight time is ridiculous. The shell arc more than makes up for the reload and improved AP, because you can't hit anything at long range.

Also, the USN CAs are almost the only line in the game without torpedoes. They need something to make up for the lack of close range offense. The 8" autoloaders do a fine job. So while in comparison to KMS and IJN the USN has the shell advantage, both German and IJN have torps, the IJN has better HE and stealth, and the KMS has armor (kinda). So the US beats the others in guns hands down, but the other nations have other traits. It's called balance.

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All answers to Wargaming's pen modeling system can be answered if you understand the following equation (and the implications, and lack of understanding of it on their part):

p=mv

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25 minutes ago, XurMP said:

Japanese AP with better pen (in most cases) is so worthless? 

Zao is the only Japanese cruiser has more AP pen than US heavy cruiser shells. 

Also, comparing the pen of T8 cruisers, Baltimore wins until Cheshire is released. at T9, Buffalo wins if we exclude the supercruisers. T10, however, the only cruiser AP shells with worse pen (excluding light cruisers) are Venezia and Hindenburg, but that is mostly because every other nation gets different guns than the T9, or a much heavier shell and faster shell velocity (Zao), whereas Italian, German, and US CAs get the same guns from T8. 

The improved autobounce angles and high DPM DM/Salem have offsets the lower pen compared to other T10 cruisers.

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11 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

amazing torpedo bulges, which apparently completely mitigate damage from large caliber AP penetrations.

What is more comical about that is that even the very common 32mm Torpedo Bulge somehow can completely deflect Yamato shells that should overmatch that anti underwater lewds. The amount of "Torpedo Bulge Hits" you get when shooting at at broadside Republique with Yamato is absolutely disgusting

Also... Have you noticed that ships like Colorado that have very high torpedo bulges are almost imposible to citadel? Not even a Vladivostok at under 4km or a Georgia at 7km can citadel full broadside Colorado... Working as intended

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4 minutes ago, tfcas119 said:

The improved autobounce angles and high DPM DM/Salem have offsets the lower pen compared to other T10 cruisers.

Lovely DPM, been using it and the SHAP to beat the turrets of bow on or otherwise distracted battleships to death.

Lovely watching those turn black when a BB is trying to charge.

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6 minutes ago, tfcas119 said:

Zao is the only Japanese cruiser has more AP pen than US heavy cruiser shells. 

Also, comparing the pen of T8 cruisers, Baltimore wins until Cheshire is released. at T9, Buffalo wins if we exclude the supercruisers. T10, however, the only cruiser AP shells with worse pen (excluding light cruisers) are Venezia and Hindenburg, but that is mostly because every other nation gets different guns than the T9, or a much heavier shell and faster shell velocity (Zao), whereas Italian, German, and US CAs get the same guns from T8. 

The improved autobounce angles and high DPM DM/Salem have offsets the lower pen compared to other T10 cruisers.

This would make a lot of sense if Krupp value wasn't a thing, let me give you an example:

Z-52 has both way better initial shell speed and heavier AP shells than Gearing yet WG in their infinite wisdom have the German sausage Tier 3 levels of krupp value completely ruining any change of being the AP monsters she is meant to be.

 

As for the cruisers... I'm not sure if Baltimore had an autoloader but that's meant to justify the very high ROF of the Des Moines class, having the same caliber doesn't mean is the same guns as FdG's and GK's 406mm prove. I could be wrong but they are not the same guns, just same caliber. 

Don't get me wrong, Des Moines class HE is very good and I don't blame you for using it but I would encourage you to use the AP more, it's just insane what those shells can do... I only the HE for bow in targets and DDs, if someone shows the tiniest bit of side 8k damage is going to rain on them every 5 seconds

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I see you are a man of culture.

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Just now, destawaits said:

I see you are a man of culture.

A fellow Shikikan, nice to see you around :3

Nimi deserves the oath skin NOW

Who is your PR2 grind going good sir?

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35 minutes ago, XurMP said:

A fellow Shikikan, nice to see you around :3

Nimi deserves the oath skin NOW

Who is your PR2 grind going good sir?

Yes, and also a "dok-ta" too

I'm grinding the Azuma; so far, I only have 2 PR1s. We live in a society, so Nimi doesn't get an oath skin

Anyway, I have worked with Wichita and New Orleans a lot as they are nimble open-water CAs with good AP alpha. I haven't played my Baltimore as much but the practice with open-watering and ammo selection in Wichita might come in handy.

 

Edited by destawaits

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1 hour ago, _RC1138 said:

All answers to Wargaming's pen modeling system can be answered if you understand the following equation (and the implications, and lack of understanding of it on their part):

p=mv

What? Are you suggesting a 32mm piece of steel isn't actually going to completely and harmlessly bounce a ton and a half of shell on a ballistic trajectory? Heresy!

:Smile_teethhappy:

1 hour ago, XurMP said:

What is more comical about that is that even the very common 32mm Torpedo Bulge somehow can completely deflect Yamato shells that should overmatch that anti underwater lewds. The amount of "Torpedo Bulge Hits" you get when shooting at at broadside Republique with Yamato is absolutely disgusting

Also... Have you noticed that ships like Colorado that have very high torpedo bulges are almost imposible to citadel? Not even a Vladivostok at under 4km or a Georgia at 7km can citadel full broadside Colorado... Working as intended

Yeah, it's ridiculous to see numerous pens, and get zero damage. I don't care what the internal layout of the ship is, it just ate 3 16in AP shells which armed, there is some serious damage being done. But nope, in WG logic that force was completely dissipated by a foot or so of empty space. 

The CO thing makes sense, you eat more pen damage, but avoid the citadel damage. That makes sense (kinda). What we're talking about is if you just didn't do any damage to the Colorado because lol torpedo bulges. Personally I think it just some sketchy coding on WG's part and they trotted out the torp bulge excuse because they can't be bothered to make their AP pen model work properly with their armor model. Things are starting to go wonky, interesting penetrations are becoming more common, the render issue is making a comeback, and shells are falling short of the aimpoint. I think it's time for WG to take a break from pushing out the newest OP high tier premium, and just take an update or two to fix a couple of small issues that clearly are pretty deep in the code, and need to be fixed before they become bigger. Maintenance is just as important in the long run as flashy update material. 

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Very disingenuous of you OP to use the screenshot of 1 game when 1 game does not set a trend.  Let's use server stats instead.  You, me, we're nothing.  But thousands of players averaging real results with tens, hundreds of thousands of games, those are some real, hard, proven results with great sample sizes.

TLDR: IJN CAs look fine to me.  They are strictly damage dealers as none of them have utility like the High Tier USN Cruisers do.  And they are doing just fine as that.

 

Damage AveragesNA Server, 4th Quarter stats:  2019/09/28 thru 2019/12/28.

Courtesy Maplesyrup.

Normal IJN & USN 203mm Heavy Cruisers

Spoiler

 

Tier X

Zao 74,283

Des Memes 63,793

Salem 61,746

Zao has always, ALWAYS done more damage on average than Des Moines-class.  The rapid firing USN 203mm autoloaders with base 5.5 seconds reload, USN CA AP Bounce Angles, SHS AP have done nothing in either DM-class Cruisers in catching up with Zao in damage dealing.  This was so in 2015.  It still holds true in 2020.  Supererior shell flight characteristics is why Zao does significantly more damage than the DM-class. 

 

Outside Zao, USN & IJN 203mm shells have pretty similar shell flight characteristics.

 

Tier IX

Ibuki 53,059

Buffalo 45,039

Looks like those SHS shells and USN CA AP Bounce Angles aren't helping Buffalo much.  The funny part is lots of IJN Cruiser players despise Ibuki. :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Tier VIII

Mogami 41,799 - No stat websites we players can access differentiate these values from the 155mm or 203mm gun configurations.

Atago 42,653 - Using Atago here as she is fitted only with the 203mm guns that we're concerned with.

Baltimore 37,031 - Baltimore is considered a very strong ship from the USN CA Line, some saying even OP.  Others will also say she's better than Tier IX Buffalo.  Yet the truth says otherwise.  Despite the SHS and special USN CA AP Bounce Angles, she does worse than Atago and Mogami.

 

Tier VII

Myoko 35,785 - Not counting the numerous ARP Clones and Southern / Eastern Dragon Clones, they're all identical to Myoko.

New Orleans 30,357 - People were never really fond of New Orleans, even back when she was in Tier VIII, nevermind her worse version in Tier VII. 

USN CA SHS AP shells only start appearing Tier VIII+, so NOLA doesn't have that.  But she does have the USN CA AP Bounce Angles.  But Myoko still does better.

 

Tier VI

Aoba 26,954

Pensacola 23,413

Same story as with New Orleans regarding shells characteristics among USN CAs.  Aoba still does better.

 

I skipped Tier V Furutaka because there is no USN CA this tier to directly compare her performance to.

 

IJN & USN Super Cruisers

Spoiler

 

Tier IX

Azuma 73,942 - People trash this thing, yet she clearly does more damage than the much more loved, respected Alaska.

Alaska 65,226 - Very well rounded Super Cruiser, 305mm guns with USN CA Bounce Angle benefits, etc.  Very well proven stats, 175,782 battles in the 4th quarter alone.  Puerto Rico and both IJN Super Cruisers don't have that high amount of battles played to drag the stats down some.

 

Tier X

Yoshino 79,288 - Like Azuma, people like to disparage Yoshino.  But she does better than Puerto Rico in damage dealing by a significant margin.

Puerto Rico 65,384*  - IMO this is pretty underwhelming for a Tier X Super Cruiser.  Alaska does as much Damage Average in Tier IX as Tier X Puerto Rico.  Personally, this is very disappointing stats for PR because despite the very small sample size of battles, stats like that tend to be inflated a bit.  Puerto Rico doesn't even portray that inflation and looking better than she should.

 

The IJN & USN Super Cruisers have very sharply contrasting strengths and benefits compared to each other.  In terms of raw damage dealing, the IJN ones do better, but there's a caveat.  The IJN Super Cruisers and Puerto Rico aren't played to the degree that Alaska has been.

In short, the Super Cruisers for the IJN & USN are balanced compared to each other, but I'm disappointed in Puerto Rico's statistical performance.

 

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Those values reflect the improved and hardened capping that was applied during shell manufacture. The krupp values on the USN caps and the shell casings in general were some of the hardest during the period. The IJN shells in WWII were notorious for HE shells prematurely arming and AP shells shearing off the nose caps at any sort of acute angles.

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2 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

What? Are you suggesting a 32mm piece of steel isn't actually going to completely and harmlessly bounce a ton and a half of shell on a ballistic trajectory? Heresy!

Yeah I am lol. Wargaming cannot into momentum nor inertia. Angling mechanics maybe make sense with tank calibre guns, but not with Warships whose shells can literally just *crush* their way through angled plates.

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4 hours ago, XurMP said:

What is more comical about that is that even the very common 32mm Torpedo Bulge somehow can completely deflect Yamato shells that should overmatch that anti underwater lewds. The amount of "Torpedo Bulge Hits" you get when shooting at at broadside Republique with Yamato is absolutely disgusting

Also... Have you noticed that ships like Colorado that have very high torpedo bulges are almost imposible to citadel? Not even a Vladivostok at under 4km or a Georgia at 7km can citadel full broadside Colorado... Working as intended

The Republique torpedo protection hits aren't a bug or anything, you get them because your shell penetrates the torpedo protection and then bounces off the belt.

Republique armor at the waterline is a vertical 32 mm torpedo belt, 400 mm belt angled inward at 45 degrees (effective 565 mm assuming a horizontal trajectory), 70 mm turtleback angled at 45 degrees (effective 99 mm), and then a 40 mm citadel wall. You need 700 mm + of penetration to citadel it. Penetrating the torpedo protection doesn't do damage, otherwise you'd be able to full pen a Republique by shooting at the waterline with DD AP.

You need something like 600 mm of penetration to full pen a 90 degree broadside Republique at the waterline. Yamato outside ~14 km doesn't have enough. But because you overmatch 32 mm, every single hit on the belt will penetrate the torpedo protection regardless of angle, and give you a torpedo protection hit ribbon. If you shoot Kremlin waterline at a 70 degree angle you get a ricochet for 0 damage, if you shoot Republique waterline at a 70 degree angle you get a torpedo protection hit for 0 damage.

 

There's really nothing 'black hole' about Republique armor, it has very good citadel protection but that's a tradeoff for having no HE protection at all. The only reason anyone complains about it is the 32 mm torpedo protection over the belt.

Edited by WernerHerzdog

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15 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Very disingenuous of you OP to use the screenshot of 1 game when 1 game does not set a trend.  Let's use server stats instead.  You, me, we're nothing.  But thousands of players averaging real results with tens, hundreds of thousands of games, those are some real, hard, proven results with great sample sizes.

That game was just a rare exception and probably a 1 time game where you can land so so many citadels with a cruiser. Still, the potential is there for anyone to do the same if MM RNG says yes

 

15 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

TLDR: IJN CAs look fine to me.  They are strictly damage dealers as none of them have utility like the High Tier USN Cruisers do.  And they are doing just fine as that.

Yes, they are fine. I don't ask for Zao buffs or DM class nerfs, just pointing out that having both extremely good AP, great HE, great AA and all the utility in the world while having insanely high DPM is a bit too much if the only drawback is slow shells that with proper aiming are as good as any other shells.

DM class does NOT have the infuriatingly floaty shells of their lighter sisters and even though the initial shell velocity is not great it's similar to Georgia ballistics: Quite nicely arched with a big nose dive at the end to punish citadels even harder. 

Again, I'm not asking for DM class nerfs, there are WAY WORSE issues right now in game that some slight things that don't matter too much

15 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Damage AveragesNA Server, 4th Quarter stats:  2019/09/28 thru 2019/12/28.

Courtesy Maplesyrup.

Normal IJN & USN 203mm Heavy Cruisers

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Tier X

Zao 74,283

Des Memes 63,793

Salem 61,746

Zao has always, ALWAYS done more damage on average than Des Moines-class.  The rapid firing USN 203mm autoloaders with base 5.5 seconds reload, USN CA AP Bounce Angles, SHS AP have done nothing in either DM-class Cruisers in catching up with Zao in damage dealing.  This was so in 2015.  It still holds true in 2020.  Supererior shell flight characteristics is why Zao does significantly more damage than the DM-class. 

 

Outside Zao, USN & IJN 203mm shells have pretty similar shell flight characteristics.

 

Tier IX

Ibuki 53,059

Buffalo 45,039

Looks like those SHS shells and USN CA AP Bounce Angles aren't helping Buffalo much.  The funny part is lots of IJN Cruiser players despise Ibuki. :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Tier VIII

Mogami 41,799 - No stat websites we players can access differentiate these values from the 155mm or 203mm gun configurations.

Atago 42,653 - Using Atago here as she is fitted only with the 203mm guns that we're concerned with.

Baltimore 37,031 - Baltimore is considered a very strong ship from the USN CA Line, some saying even OP.  Others will also say she's better than Tier IX Buffalo.  Yet the truth says otherwise.  Despite the SHS and special USN CA AP Bounce Angles, she does worse than Atago and Mogami.

 

Tier VII

Myoko 35,785 - Not counting the numerous ARP Clones and Southern / Eastern Dragon Clones, they're all identical to Myoko.

New Orleans 30,357 - People were never really fond of New Orleans, even back when she was in Tier VIII, nevermind her worse version in Tier VII. 

USN CA SHS AP shells only start appearing Tier VIII+, so NOLA doesn't have that.  But she does have the USN CA AP Bounce Angles.  But Myoko still does better.

 

Tier VI

Aoba 26,954

Pensacola 23,413

Same story as with New Orleans regarding shells characteristics among USN CAs.  Aoba still does better.

 

I skipped Tier V Furutaka because there is no USN CA this tier to directly compare her performance to.

 

IJN & USN Super Cruisers

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Tier IX

Azuma 73,942 - People trash this thing, yet she clearly does more damage than the much more loved, respected Alaska.

Alaska 65,226 - Very well rounded Super Cruiser, 305mm guns with USN CA Bounce Angle benefits, etc.  Very well proven stats, 175,782 battles in the 4th quarter alone.  Puerto Rico and both IJN Super Cruisers don't have that high amount of battles played to drag the stats down some.

 

Tier X

Yoshino 79,288 - Like Azuma, people like to disparage Yoshino.  But she does better than Puerto Rico in damage dealing by a significant margin.

Puerto Rico 65,384*  - IMO this is pretty underwhelming for a Tier X Super Cruiser.  Alaska does as much Damage Average in Tier IX as Tier X Puerto Rico.  Personally, this is very disappointing stats for PR because despite the very small sample size of battles, stats like that tend to be inflated a bit.  Puerto Rico doesn't even portray that inflation and looking better than she should.

 

The IJN & USN Super Cruisers have very sharply contrasting strengths and benefits compared to each other.  In terms of raw damage dealing, the IJN ones do better, but there's a caveat.  The IJN Super Cruisers and Puerto Rico aren't played to the degree that Alaska has been.

In short, the Super Cruisers for the IJN & USN are balanced compared to each other, but I'm disappointed in Puerto Rico's statistical performance.

 

 

Yes is true IJN ships tend to do more sheer damage than their US counterparts, nobody is denying that

But does a slight increase in damage (11k at it's maximum if we don't count PR) justify trading all the team utility in the world? What is better? Do 10k more to a battleship or keep spotted a enemy DD for half a minute while protecting your team with AA or hydro? That's the core issue I have with how WG treats IJN ships... They are always one trick ponies that fail miserably when you try to use them for anything else that their specific niche yet US ships can be whatever you desire. 

Alaska and PR: Can be excellent brawlers, taking the punishment very well before flanking the enemy and demolishing their citadels with SHAP or long range annoying ships that can do 8k every salvo regardless of the distance

Des Moines class: You can brawl with other Cruisers like there is no tomorrow with only Minotaur being somewhat close to their Cruiser brawl potential. You can also brawl BBs with very slow turrets like all Yamato class with impunity. The insane DPM allows you to be a excellent long range sniper and thanks to Salem's Super Heal and to Moine's Legendary module, you can also play as a open water DPM machine.

 

Zao: Long range HE spammer that can only get closer late game if she doesn't want to get yeeted by BBs. Awful torpedo arcs that make Atago BY FAR the best IJN CA brawler of the entire tech tree (maybe Furry Tako) while having very slow reload and quite bad AP that struggle to even citadel other cruisers. She is a good HE spammer but pretty much that's it's entire thing.

Azuma/Yoshino: They are BAD. Yes, there are much worse ships and they are not even close to being the worst premiums but holy cow they have weakness to gain very very little. First of all, the HE is barely any improvement over Alaska's and they also have worse fire chance than Stalingrad's because logic. The AP despite being good in paper, is absolutely worthless in game and you should only use it against the ships you can overmatch, mainly HMS CLs as we all know how reliable Smolensk gets citadeled. The accuracy is decent enough but in many salvos, the dispersion is all over the place and you are lucky to even land two of the shells, specially at further ranges. I must admit that their AA with DeFAA on is pretty nice and that is definitely a positive. But that's where good stuff ends. The armor is the most worthless piece of ship you can find at high tiers. Hell, I consider Minotaur a lot more survivable thanks to the amazing ease she has for dodging anything and the super heal. Also Azuma is WAY more survivable than Yoshino because of that fast recharging heal that keep her alive in worrying scenarios, specially when another cruiser with actual DPM tries to duel you. They deserve the IJN CA dispersion that Azuma had during testing but WG in their infinite wisdom managed to make Musashi feel more accurate... Yoshino is a joke... The Mega Zao couldn't even be a Mega Atago and is just a upsized Yahagi...

 

PR: This ship is not bad at all. Sure, the accuracy may be a bit wonky at times but the sheer damage the guns put out is insane... In the few games I have with her, it's like Hindenburg are make to feed citadels to PR no matter the range. PR is way tankier than Alaska, use that advantage to get closer so your guns sing and reward you with endless citadels even on BBs. The guns are not amazing but they work really well for their task and despite what everyone says, I think the biggest drawback of PR is having 4 heals instead of 5 as that makes you a bit less resistant to sustained damage. Other than that, she is fine. Blast everything with AP and keep the HE as a last resource for bow on ships that you cannot overmatch.

 

 

Yeah, you can see why Azuma deals more damage. It gets played only by IJN lovers or weebs like myself that still have a chance that our beloved AL Azuma can be also good in WoWs... And NO, I'm not one of those Stalingrad has such great stats because only super Unicums have it, Azuma is a underpowered ship while Stalingrad is Stalin's wet dream of how Cruisers should be. 

Also look further than the damage alone, Azuma loses in every single category except planes shoot down as her AA is actually pretty good and who does run hydro on a ship that is forced to play in the very very back of the map to not get nuked. Unlike CLs, both B65 do NOT have the agility to dodge well even beyond 15km, you can do it but is not nearly as easy as with something like a Minotaur or Smolensk.

 

It may just be me but I absolutely love playing up and close where RNG has better little effect and honestly the closer, the more fun. Many people have begged WG many many times to make a brawling IJN ship yet they have never even attempted it and have already lost the biggest and most well known chances: Yuudachi, Yukikaze and now with A-140 having the same armor as Yamato class... Is just disgusting to keep forcing IJN ships to the back of the map because they give them some of the worst armor layouts in game and nothing to offset that again and again... 

 

Statistics to back this up:

Tier 9 CBs.png

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15 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Very disingenuous of you OP to use the screenshot of 1 game when 1 game does not set a trend.  Let's use server stats instead.  You, me, we're nothing.  But thousands of players averaging real results with tens, hundreds of thousands of games, those are some real, hard, proven results with great sample sizes.

TLDR: IJN CAs look fine to me.  They are strictly damage dealers as none of them have utility like the High Tier USN Cruisers do.  And they are doing just fine as that.

 

  Hide contents

 

Tier IX

Azuma 73,942 - People trash this thing, yet she clearly does more damage than the much more loved, respected Alaska.

Alaska 65,226 - Very well rounded Super Cruiser, 305mm guns with USN CA Bounce Angle benefits, etc.  Very well proven stats, 175,782 battles in the 4th quarter alone.  Puerto Rico and both IJN Super Cruisers don't have that high amount of battles played to drag the stats down some.

 

Tier X

Yoshino 79,288 - Like Azuma, people like to disparage Yoshino.  But she does better than Puerto Rico in damage dealing by a significant margin.

Puerto Rico 65,384*  - IMO this is pretty underwhelming for a Tier X Super Cruiser.  Alaska does as much Damage Average in Tier IX as Tier X Puerto Rico.  Personally, this is very disappointing stats for PR because despite the very small sample size of battles, stats like that tend to be inflated a bit.  Puerto Rico doesn't even portray that inflation and looking better than she should.

 

The IJN & USN Super Cruisers have very sharply contrasting strengths and benefits compared to each other.  In terms of raw damage dealing, the IJN ones do better, but there's a caveat.  The IJN Super Cruisers and Puerto Rico aren't played to the degree that Alaska has been.

In short, the Super Cruisers for the IJN & USN are balanced compared to each other, but I'm disappointed in Puerto Rico's statistical performance.

 

 

Yoshino damage difference comes from torpedoes and fires set not its guns/AP per say. Yoshino does have a very odd performance in its AP....its simply unreliable given its a 12 inch caliber. Why? It will bounce off ships at angles that an 8 inch shell should not have trouble penetrating...like the flat broadside of a worc at 10km...which Yoshino guns hitting it results in a lot of shells bouncing off. Yoshino better ballistics and its HE and fires allow it to end up dealing a bit more damage...and they can do so consistently better than PR simply because Yoshino has no chance whatsoever in medium or close range so it stays far back sniping and setting fires while PR goes up front to fight and tends to die earlier. 

In a duel between yoshino and PR the PR is almost guaranteed to win simply because yoshino guns cant hurt a PR faster than PR can hurt yoshino...at any angle. 

 

The AP problem of IJN is chronic and obviously soviet-bias dev IJN-hate code based. As others have noted, Yamato shells gets stopped by torpedo bulges, Yamato shells bounce off destroyers, Yamato shells overpen citadels, etc,etc. 

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