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DolphinPrincess

The better the player, the worse CV vs DD interaction becomes

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Take for example, a potato DD player that yolos into the enemy team. This is your typical DD thats dead in 5 minutes, for him, CV vs DD interaction is nearly irrelevant. Because even had a CV go after him with rockets, he would have died maybe 4:30 instead of 5:00 into the game, the 3k rocket damage is not nearly significant compared to the shells fired by enemy ships for his remaining 10-20k hp. To him, everything is a threat, and the biggest threat is from whatever can deal the most damage to him, which would be light cruisers. CVs have the lowest DPM and is of the least concern.

For the average potato, CV vs DD interaction seems to be fine, CVs deal a moderate but consistent damage while other sources deal high but situational damage, seems balanced. But as you move onto the better players, the perspective changes. CVs still deal a very consistent amount of damage regardless of the skill of the DD player, but as the DD player gets better, he takes less and less damage from other sources. 

When you get to the good DD players, who hardly take any damage from other sources, CV becomes the living grim reaper. Imagine yourself being able to outplay anything, taking on fleets of multiple ships and coming up on top, only to take the same amount of damage from something that comes out of nowhere, from complete safety, at no cost, with no counterplay.

I was playing the Farragut the last week because people were wondering why the USN was as overpowered as I describe them to be, and here I can give you some examples of a no CV game and a double CV game.

Here we have a game without CVs, there were 7 ships on the South flank, a DD can literally be 6km away from them and take minimal damage with proper play, this game ends with me wiping out the entire flank while taking 3k damage in return. 

Now we compare this to a game with another with pretty much the same result, with 5 kills and 200k damage, but with 2 CVs

You can see from the very beginning of the game that I was moving very far away from the cap, it is something I had to do just to give me some stealth to avoid the initial onslaught. I was then shot at by the Anshan for free as I had to try to minimize the damage from rockets, nevertheless, a CV of the same tier was able to do quite a number on me.

Take a look at the end game screens of these games, in the no CV game I had:

15k spotting damage, 400k potential damage, and taken 3.3k from ships.

Compare that to the double CV game where I had:

4k spotting damage, 400k potential damage, and taken 4k from ships and 4k from rockets

I am not going to count the torpedo damage, as that is my fault and I deserved to take that damage as a result of a mistake.

But what I want to conclude here is that, both games I was shot at the same by surface ships, and taken pretty much the same amount of shell damage while killing an entire flank in return. But in the CV game, a player with just left clicks was able to do the same amount of damage as an entire flank of ships, and there is nothing I can do about it. A whole flank of ships put themselves in danger and paid their lives to deal 4k damage, a CV sits in the back and left clicks to do the same, how is this remotely fair?

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Only WG thinks it's fair. 

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Well put. 

But be careful - few more self-descreditory posts like this and forum will be voting to nerf dolphins instead of CV//

... on side note... there should be some term which describes ability of ship to counter specific threats. Something like countering skill floor. Because certain types of ships and certain specific ships have different countering skill floor  and probably this causes most frustration.

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OP is 100% correct.

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10 minutes ago, DolphinPrincess said:

Take for example, a potato DD player that yolos into the enemy team. This is your typical DD thats dead in 5 minutes, for him, CV vs DD interaction is nearly irrelevant. Because even had a CV go after him with rockets, he would have died maybe 4:30 instead of 5:00 into the game, the 3k rocket damage is not nearly significant compared to the shells fired by enemy ships for his remaining 10-20k hp. To him, everything is a threat, and the biggest threat is from whatever can deal the most damage to him, which would be light cruisers. CVs have the lowest DPM and is of the least concern.

For the average potato, CV vs DD interaction seems to be fine, CVs deal a moderate but consistent damage while other sources deal high but situational damage, seems balanced. But as you move onto the better players, the perspective changes. CVs still deal a very consistent amount of damage regardless of the skill of the DD player, but as the DD player gets better, he takes less and less damage from other sources. 

When you get to the good DD players, who hardly take any damage from other sources, CV becomes the living grim reaper. Imagine yourself being able to outplay anything, taking on fleets of multiple ships and coming up on top, only to take the same amount of damage from something that comes out of nowhere, from complete safety, at no cost, with no counterplay.

I was playing the Farragut the last week because people were wondering why the USN was as overpowered as I describe them to be, and here I can give you some examples of a no CV game and a double CV game.

Here we have a game without CVs, there were 7 ships on the South flank, a DD can literally be 6km away from them and take minimal damage with proper play, this game ends with me wiping out the entire flank while taking 3k damage in return. 

Now we compare this to a game with another with pretty much the same result, with 5 kills and 200k damage, but with 2 CVs

You can see from the very beginning of the game that I was moving very far away from the cap, it is something I had to do just to give me some stealth to avoid the initial onslaught. I was then shot at by the Anshan for free as I had to try to minimize the damage from rockets, nevertheless, a CV of the same tier was able to do quite a number on me.

Take a look at the end game screens of these games, in the no CV game I had:

15k spotting damage, 400k potential damage, and taken 3.3k from ships.

Compare that to the double CV game where I had:

4k spotting damage, 400k potential damage, and taken 4k from ships and 4k from rockets

I am not going to count the torpedo damage, as that is my fault and I deserved to take that damage as a result of a mistake.

But what I want to conclude here is that, both games I was shot at the same by surface ships, and taken pretty much the same amount of shell damage while killing an entire flank in return. But in the CV game, a player with just left clicks was able to do the same amount of damage as an entire flank of ships, and there is nothing I can do about it. A whole flank of ships put themselves in danger and paid their lives to deal 4k damage, a CV sits in the back and left clicks to do the same, how is this remotely fair?

I get what you're saying but I disagree.  I am pretty much a potato dd, but if i yolo rush a cap and die, my bad i messed up i deserve that death.  If i get blapped by some rockets before i can even get to the cap, thats just bad game design.  Even if I was about to yolo die it doesnt make up for me not even getting the chance to do it... and learn from that mistake vs getting dead through no fault of my own and with no recourse.

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Well this just showed how  pressing "P" doesn't help the cause....

Not to mention the DDs used are not "low AA" ships

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Wow!  This has been posted for almost 20 min and the CV mafia have not come in to tell you that you need to "get gud" or "If you don't like it leave".

CV's just don't fit the game, but we have no say in the matter. 

WG has to have a way for lower skilled players to do as much damage as the higher skilled players, WG has to make the game so that even a blind retarded monkey can run a class of ship that wont take any hits in till it has done fun loads of damage.

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WG's answer to unicums...     

215K damage, 5 kills  and survived in a dbl CV game.     Proof positive that CVS are broken.  

FTR what kind of potato CVs let you go on that rampage and not finish you off?    I'd like to think I had more game awareness than that while playing one.    

 

GIT GUD!

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I too find CV frustrating when I'm casually murdering an entire flank!

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32 minutes ago, pikohan said:

Only WG thinks it's fair. 

Not true.

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As a super unicum cv main and one of the best cv players in the world i concur that cv ruin games.

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37 minutes ago, The_Abysss said:

I get what you're saying but I disagree.  I am pretty much a potato dd, but if i yolo rush a cap and die, my bad i messed up i deserve that death.  If i get blapped by some rockets before i can even get to the cap, thats just bad game design.  Even if I was about to yolo die it doesnt make up for me not even getting the chance to do it... and learn from that mistake vs getting dead through no fault of my own and with no recourse.

You managed to prove his point. Not understanding the difference between damage that can be avoided through skilled play vs damage that can not be avoided through skilled play.   Good job. 

 

EDIT:    I reacted to  Sentence 1.     On further inspection of your text. Sentence 1 stands in opposition to the rest of your text.  As 1 disagrees with OP yet the rest agree with him. 

Edited by eviltane
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If CV's were removed, what would be the check on DD ninja's at lower and mid tiers?

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3 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

If CV's were removed, what would be the check on DD ninja's at lower and mid tiers?

Other DDs. The proper antidote to a DD is another DD.

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4 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

If CV's were removed, what would be the check on DD ninja's at lower and mid tiers?

Themselves. You’ll still have a healthy population of DD muppets who yolo into a cap and die.

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Interesting answers. In Dolphins case as with other unicums. The average and less "enter ship class here" won't have a chance one on one against them. Which is a nod to their skill and work they have put in. However what are the chances of getting a equal skilled DD player on your side as a counter. You would have better odds of getting a average CV player on your side than another DD Jedi. 

I appreciate the responses, and Dolphin for posting his replays. Always appreciate helpful instructions from excellent players.

out of thumbs up or I'd be giving some out.

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8 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Interesting answers. In Dolphins case as with other unicums. The average and less "enter ship class here" won't have a chance one on one against them. Which is a nod to their skill and work they have put in. However what are the chances of getting a equal skilled DD player on your side as a counter. You would have better odds of getting a average CV player on your side than another DD Jedi. 

I appreciate the responses, and Dolphin for posting his replays. Always appreciate helpful instructions from excellent players.

out of thumbs up or I'd be giving some out.

 I think what chances are won't matter so much.  What matters to people like dolphin and even to someone like me. Is that what we are facing is a game of skill . Not a game in which someone that we could outplay in any other scenario is given an easy out to deal with us.   Yes there are some elements of luck but on the whole skill has a huge bearing on the problem.

Just for one further note. I and others have outplayed Dolphin or similar players in the past.  Not just in DDs but cruisers and BBs can do it too.  As a DD main  contesting against unicum DDs can be quite challenging  but also ultimately very rewarding when victorious. Those are the games where I  learn the most   by watching how they counteract my moves. 

 

Edited by eviltane
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17 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Other DDs. The proper antidote to a DD is another DD.

So the team with the best DDs will win? 

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Just now, DemonGod3 said:

So the team with the best DDs will win? 

So the team with the most skilled players will win.  People keep saying DDs  but Cruisers are massive DD counter. 

Edited by eviltane
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3 minutes ago, DemonGod3 said:

So the team with the best DDs will win? 

This is the way

 

tenor.gif?itemid=15639793

2 minutes ago, eviltane said:

People keep saying DDs  but Cruisers are massive DD counter.

Ehh, at low tiers cruisers "are" a counter but not a reliable counter.  

Edited by Warped_1

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1 minute ago, eviltane said:

So the team with the most skilled players will win. 

Which is already happening...

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14 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Interesting answers. In Dolphins case as with other unicums. The average and less "enter ship class here" won't have a chance one on one against them. Which is a nod to their skill and work they have put in. However what are the chances of getting a equal skilled DD player on your side as a counter. You would have better odds of getting a average CV player on your side than another DD Jedi. 

I appreciate the responses, and Dolphin for posting his replays. Always appreciate helpful instructions from excellent players.

out of thumbs up or I'd be giving some out.

 Bravo

 So many good things to learn from these guys

There's only a handful of unicoms that actually come in here and discuss game play, sad so few but i appreciate them doing it.

yet 90% of this forms reaction is to call them every name in the book and tell them that they don't know how to play this game lol

 

 

 

Edited by NoLoveForPhatShips
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@DolphinPrincess

Indeed it's nearly always the CV doing the most damage to me when there is a CV in the battle.

My record is about 2.8mill potencial in my shima and i lived because i can dodge gunfire and that was about 2.5 mins worth of constant gunfire from 7 ships. 

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1 hour ago, DolphinPrincess said:

But what I want to conclude here is that, both games I was shot at the same by surface ships, and taken pretty much the same amount of shell damage while killing an entire flank in return. But in the CV game, a player with just left clicks was able to do the same amount of damage as an entire flank of ships, and there is nothing I can do about it. A whole flank of ships put themselves in danger and paid their lives to deal 4k damage, a CV sits in the back and left clicks to do the same, how is this remotely fair?

In all fairness, is this an elaborate trolling attempt?

I've watched both videos and both are excellent games with 4-6 achievements each.  High Caliber and up, even in a double CV game.

If there is an argument to be made, it's that DDs are remarkably strong given their toolset.

I'm obviously a CV player, so I realize many won't care what I say.  That being said, you were rarely fired upon in either of your two example games.  Use of positioning and smoke made it so the 4k rocket damage mattered, because you were shot at about 4 times in the first game, and I don't actively recall you being fired upon in the second (though I'm sure it was there.  I was waiting for when the CVs did something noteworthy).  As for the rocket planes, you elected not to smoke.  You lost 4k health in trade for the ability to smoke in a better position and farm out a kill.  That's a fine trade.

I realize DDs aren't able to play the same in a CV game as they are in a non-CV game, but that's just a dynamic that keeps the game fluid.  Cruisers play different when there are BBs.  BBs play different when there are DDs.  DDs play different when there is a radar or CVs.  Variables make the game non-linear, and ultimately extend its life, even if those variables are frustrating.

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1 hour ago, DolphinPrincess said:

When you get to the good DD players, who hardly take any damage from other sources, CV becomes the living grim reaper. Imagine yourself being able to outplay anything, taking on fleets of multiple ships and coming up on top, only to take the same amount of damage from something that comes out of nowhere, from complete safety, at no cost, with no counterplay.

No that's not true. A good player in a DD that is in a CV game will stay close to BBs and CAs for AA protection. Then when they want to cap they will hit "P" to stop their AA, pop their smoke and the aircraft won't see them.

If you are going off on your own in a DD trying to play John Wayne in a CV game then if you get blown up you get what you deserved. The good players wouldn't be doing that.

Edited by GoldDust2015
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