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Skyspartan

Destroyers Rely too much on concealment

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Destroyers are fragile and they depend on concealment to survive. that why any Class/Consumable that breaks that concealment is taken with a grain of a salt. if we added a better option for DDs to depend on when they have no concealment maybe the DD interaction with everything might lighten up.

i am ok with DD not being able to choose all their engagements

CV always break DD concealment so even if the DD smokes radar/hydro is a counter.

For example the French DDs are the fastest ships so when they run out of concealment they got speed as another survival option in this meta better then smoke

alot of the destroyers are fast but not fast enough to escape danger. its like not having a back up plan when your cover is blow.

i don't have a solution without removing radar/hydro/CV

however my only idea comes to mind is increasing MAX speed for all DDs by +5-10kts but french ships would be a BLUR 

Increasing Dispersion on all DDs can be a suggestion but overpowering a DDs survival might be in question 

i feel as DDs skill Ceiling is to high to preform correctly (kinda rely on luck too much)

i just want to show a real issue for DDs as they don't really have the option to escape or disengage for many fights they know they would lose.

so any idea's to Rework DDs since they have too much risk a little less risk on DDs could help 

 

 

Edited by Skyspartan
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The torpedoes, tds, and flooding chance need to be reworked.

Removing radar, hydro, and CVs would turn the DD class into the new "cancer" class, as evidenced by T9 ranked and low tiers, where everyone runs dd.

 

Edited by Cpt_Cupcake
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You forget one thing. The DD put himself in the situation. 

 

I try to play a DD in the stealth zone. I play at near the 10k range so if I get radared I can step out of range fast. At 10k your out of hydro range. Always hit P unless you are detected by planes.

 

If you play with cruisers on their terms... you die.

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Radar and hydro despite how annoying it can be for a DD is fair and balanced, and some DDs even get to make use of it. And since I use BBs, DDs, and CAs I do look at things from a broader perspective being on both sides of the matter.

The biggest problem has been the CVs to be honest thanks to the reworked CVs and if a player has upgraded their CVs enough and is competent they can often locate your DD and at minimum keep you perms spotted if not blown out of the water by air attacks. And if you shoot down the planes more quickly take their place unless you are with strong allied AA escorts in which case a CVs may choose to ignore your DD for a while.

You can try purchasing the Speed Boost modules in Armory which can be rather expensive as they cost a fair amount of coal. With the added +50% to speed boost duration, using premium speed boost consumables, and Sierra Mike signal flags you can get your speed up and keep it up for most of the battle. You also likely will want the Superintendent captain skill for the extra consumables charges.

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i am just saying maybe DDs need a better escape plan they should be able to disengage from most fights

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19 minutes ago, Skyspartan said:

Destroyers are fragile and they depend on concealment to survive.

i don't have a solution without removing radar/hydro/CV

i feel as DDs skill Ceiling is to high to preform correctly (kinda rely on luck too much)

For almost all destroyers, concealment is life.

Since hydro, radar and carriers are a long-term part of this game, this argument is pretty much moot.

Is it wrong to have a high skill class of ship?  If all classes were basic or brain dead, what challenge would there be for any player to try and improve his/her skill?

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DDs have been given unrealistic abilities and roles in this game for their implementation into this game in relation to their IRL fragile, almost disposable builds..  Prior to rework a stealth environment existed in most games due to lack of players bothering with the silly mechanics of the RTS CVs.  Player base had gotten addicted to the DD game play in that CV-less environment....  Rework has introduced CVs in consistent numbers and that stealth environment no longer exists.. that cat is out of the bag.  The DDs we have now were balanced for the CV free atmosphere they previously had  and now it is a problem.   DDs should never have been the Ninja Death machine they have been developed to be.   Most every class in this game plays to its real life role relatively accurately except the DD...  Hence the problems.   

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I see the balance problems with DDs largely stemming from two issues.  The first is the obvious, WG's ever increasing encroachment on concealment.  The second is the ships are always getting more lethal.  Take of look at the average damage for average damage when the game released and compare it to now and you'll see ships do way more damage now.  Of course the ships with the lowest survivability will be the hardest hit.  Add to that all of the anti-concealment mechanics, and the fact that all ships counter DDs extremely well and its no wonder there are balance issues. 

I've been mentioning that the DD population has dropped over the few months, from 25-26% down to 20-21%.  If there were balance problems that dropped BB populations like that WG would act fast, when its DDs WG is indifferent.  Like the OP, I'm not sure what the answer is.  The biggest problem right now if the fact that WG is indifferent.  That's the first problem to solve before we even address the actual issues. 

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You need pay more attention to the minimap... see where the enemy is before compromised yourself...

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1 minute ago, Slimeball91 said:

I see the balance problems with DDs largely stemming from two issues.  The first is the obvious, WG's ever increasing encroachment on concealment.  The second is the ships are always getting more lethal.  Take of look at the average damage for average damage when the game released and compare it to now and you'll see ships do way more damage now.  Of course the ships with the lowest survivability will be the hardest hit.  Add to that all of the anti-concealment mechanics, and the fact that all ships counter DDs extremely well and its no wonder there are balance issues. 

I've been mentioning that the DD population has dropped over the few months, from 25-26% down to 20-21%.  If there were balance problems that dropped BB populations like that WG would act fast, when its DDs WG is indifferent.  Like the OP, I'm not sure what the answer is.  The biggest problem right now if the fact that WG is indifferent.  That's the first problem to solve before we even address the actual issues. 

As CV population rises it is inevitable DDs will fall... CVs taking up more space in matches must lower another's participation... pretty inevitable considering the counter-play, it would be DDs?   There is no way to have more of one class being played without it infringing on other populations unless they raise the amount of ships in matches? ..  WG didn't do the rework for nothing....something was always going to be affected?  I expect they knew good and well this would happen.. Just wondering why it is coming as such a surprise to the forums?  

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26 minutes ago, Skyspartan said:

so any idea's to Rework DDs since they have too much risk a little less risk on DDs could help 

remove or Rework CVs 3.0...

Revert every Torp nerf in order to have rework CVs exist in the game.

Revert the flood nerf of 0.8.1

 

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the problem dds have in WOWS is the basic game design philosophy, that each class must be able to attack and sink every other class in the game.

Which is a nice idea, except that forces WOWS to bend reality, time and space, to quite epic proportions, to allow a 3000 tonne dd to engage and sink a 50 000 tonne behemoth. 

So for example :  concealment/spotting mechanics bear no relation to reality (the idea that dds might sneak up on bbs, undetected... is straight out of some fantasy rpg rogues handbook). At sea, enviromental conditions being equal, observers at 2 different view points, no matter how big or small their viewpoints, can, in theory, see one another almost simultaneously. In practice the varying factors being the quality of mark 1 eyeballs, telescopes, light and weather conditions (at night, a bb lit up like a christmas tree would be more visible than a dd running dark, obviously). But WOWS ignores this, because boring. Another example, peashooter 120 mm dd cannons burning a CV to the waterline..

The truth is, and it hurts to hear it said I know, dds in WOWS have a grossly exaggerated power potential to satisfy our need for a fun game. CVs in their current state are a  farcical parody too, with a grossly underpowered potential to ensure the playability for every other class. It is this forced egalitarian principle, that every warship class must be able to counter every other warship class, that creates the absurd situations we find ourselves in.

Which is why I believe old fashioned RTS CVs were much better for the game, there was no confusion, everybody understood, CVs were god, everything else was food. RTS CVs reflected reality much more intelligently, were coherent, effective and much less irritating.

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What I’m seeing here is that Smoke and Speed Boost need to share a consumable slot. :Smile_trollface:

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3 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

remove or Rework CVs 3.0...

Revert every Torp nerf in order to have rework CVs exist in the game.

Revert the flood nerf of 0.8.1

 

I dare you to make a new topic with "Remove Rework CVs" as your title.. :Smile-_tongue:

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4 minutes ago, iRA6E said:

As CV population rises it is inevitable DDs will fall... CVs taking up more space in matches must lower another's participation... pretty inevitable considering the counter-play, it would be DDs?   There is no way to have more of one class being played without it infringing on other populations unless they raise the amount of ships in matches? ..  WG didn't do the rework for nothing....something was always going to be affected?  I expect they knew good and well this would happen.. Just wondering why it is coming as such a surprise to the forums?  

You know the rework didn't have to disproportionately impact any one ship type, or it could have been used to lower the population of the ship type that was/is overpopulated, BBs.  BTW, I wasn't surprised.  I predicted this even before the rework went live.

10 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

Which is a nice idea, except that forces WOWS to bend reality, time and space, to quite epic proportions, to allow a 3000 tonne dd to engage and sink a 50 000 tonne behemoth. 

It's funny, I have no problem excepting this is a game and reality, time and space don't actually exist in a game.  Making an interesting game is all that matters.  And let's remember this is a PvP shooter where, in theory at least, all players have an equal chance of success.  As we all know WG won't let something as silly as the idea of all players being equal get in the way of profits.  The problem is you can only rob Peter to pay Paul some much before you have a real mess on your hands.  That is what created the absurd situation we find ourselves in.

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Play the Khab.

 

 

Or the Kleber. 

 

 

ez

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48 minutes ago, iRA6E said:

DDs have been given unrealistic abilities and roles in this game

Every ship in this game has been buffed significantly from reality. Do not try to frame it like destroyers are the only ships that benefit from this design philosophy.

40 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

Which is a nice idea, except that forces WOWS to bend reality, time and space, to quite epic proportions, to allow a 3000 tonne dd to engage and sink a 50 000 tonne behemoth. 

Several tons of high explosives don't really care how much water you displace.

Edited by KiyoSenkan
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There are two ideas that could solve a lot of the major issues DD face without directly nerfing any one ship or mechanic.

1.) Add radio range mechanic and attribute similar to WoT.  With this, it could be easily tweaked so that (for example) when a DM radars that DD through a mountain... if the rest of his team wants to get the spotting "data" from the DM, they are going to have to be within 10km of that DM... if not... they only show on minimap..  If that BB wants to have spotting "data" from his team to be able to snipe targets and put damage down range.... sorry partner... gotta be within 10km of an ally or 15km of the ally doing the spotting to have any targets to lock on to. etc etc  This would even balance CVs greatly.

2.) Since the game is absolutely fantasy and might as well be Star Trek when it comes to maneuverability like BBs essentially turning like a Corvette...Why do shell velocities need to even remotely mirror historical values?  Reducing shell velocities across the board by the same flat amount at high tiers will make the gameplay more balanced.  (e.g. -25m/s for DDs Tier 7-10, -50m/s for Cruisers Tier 7-10, and -100m/s for BBs Tier 7-10). This will make "Dodge Tanking" a more useful ability, especially for ships that sacrifice attributes like EHP for being faster and quicker on a turn... things that don't really matter atm when most of the game has non-historical values/scale , and some shells are essentially laser beams.

With these two changes, you no longer need silly and unintuitive band-aid fixes like the 6s delay on Radar, or 10% BB AP limitation on DDs.

Edited by Varknyn12

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53 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

Which is why I believe old fashioned RTS CVs were much better for the game, there was no confusion, everybody understood, CVs were god, everything else was food. RTS CVs reflected reality much more intelligently, were coherent, effective and much less irritating.

For good or ill, and whether WG liked it or not; RTS carriers were settled mechanics and a known devil.

Guess they decided the unknown devil was the better choice.

Wonder how they feel about that now.

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2 hours ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Every ship in this game has been buffed significantly from reality. Do not try to frame it like destroyers are the only ships that benefit from this design philosophy.

Several tons of high explosives don't really care how much water you displace.

You are significantly missing the point.. Ships in this game are accurately modeled in fire power, scaled speed,  & armor.    Destroyers were never designed to be in proximity gun fights with cruisers & BBs.. they were escort & screening ships..   Cruisers and BBs were designed for this role IRL and are modeled as such in game.   Destroyers were balanced into this by giving them unrealistic stealth to protect them and unreasonable torpedo load-outs...   CVs and their vision break that fantasy.   Stealth is the only thing that can keep a DD alive in a fight it shouldn't even be in...     read these forums every day and see all the constant griping about the fragile world DDs operate in and how hard it is to deal with for average players.  Yet its the most exploitable class for high mechanics skill & understanding  in the game.   If you have any question why the outrage is so high from the uni set,  you better believe its right there.      Having DDs and CVs in the same game is a fundamental conflict to the balancing mechanisms for DDs as WG implemented them into the game .       

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1 hour ago, KHyena said:

You need pay more attention to the minimap... see where the enemy is before compromised yourself...

This implies PEBCAK which can't be true since other classes of ships exist in-game.  The other ships are obviously over powered as DDs STILL can't win a gun duel with Yammies.

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5 minutes ago, StoptheViolins said:

This implies PEBCAK which can't be true since other classes of ships exist in-game.  The other ships are obviously over powered as DDs STILL can't win a gun duel with Yammies.

why u hell expect win a GUN duel with an bb? You should delet the bb with torps (in a dd) not with guns =p

Unless you playing a heavy gun/HE farm boat and burn the bb (haru as example)

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I'd rather be a Destroyer attacking and potentially sinking a Battleship than a M3 Sturat fighting a King Tiger.

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1 minute ago, StoptheViolins said:

This implies PEBCAK which can't be true since other classes of ships exist in-game.  The other ships are obviously over powered as DDs STILL can't win a gun duel with Yammies.

No destroyer player has ever expected to win a gun duel with a Yamato. That's what torpedoes are for. Or would be for, if BaBBies didn't whine them into obsolescence.

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The speed consumable needs to bump the speed by 10 knots for most destroyers IMHO to make them want get into and out of harms way.

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