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Caine

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Does anyone else feel that in a given match how the DDs play the game weighs too much on the outcome of the match?

I don't mean poor play necessarily, I mean all things, bots, yolo idiots, bad play, good play and intervention by RNJESUS

 

 

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It balances out.  A DD that is alive late in the game can be very influential.

However, many DD's get nuked within 5 minutes, and most within 10.

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The way I see it, most DDs with few exceptions have a relatively high skill floor but also a high skill ceiling to compensate.

Edited by warheart1992

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That is just a psychological effect on one team of players which creates the above misconception.

According to the data and supported by the contextual evidence of not only their paper attributes but the win conditions as well, DDs have the least weight on the outcome of the match.

Let's say that your teams DDs die first and all of the enemy teams DDs except for one die first. Since this misconception like so many misconceptions (e.g. WR is a performance metric) are regurgitated over and over and over again... people believe it. The issue is, just as it happens when ANY ship type on your team dies, you have to adapt to the loss and compensate for the loss or lose. Well, take your average BB player. Being this overpowered Sniper+Tank combination they are fine sitting all the way in the back of the map farming damage even though they have the BEST capability at being aggressive and tanking damage. When the DDs on one team perish, and the BBs and Cruisers continue with their normal routine... they lose. Lastly, losing all of ANY ship type on your team is going to greatly increase the probability of your loss, especially if the opposing team did not experience the same loss. Obviously this is because you are outnumbered. The difference is DDs are so weak and their effective range so limited they are FORCED to be in the effective range of more enemy players at any given time than ANY OTHER ship type. That is why they are more commonly seen as being the first to die. What is the constant in this equation? Is that there will ALWAYS be a match outcome. Due to actual performance capability, impact on the match based on the win conditions... a team that loses its BBs and CVs first would actually have the absolute highest probability at losing the match but this is just so uncommon because those ship types are the absolute LOWEST RISK ship types in the game, despite being also high reward... contradictory to gameplay balance.

Edited by Varknyn12
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26 minutes ago, Caine said:

 

Does anyone else feel that in a given match how the DDs play the game weighs too much on the outcome of the match?

I don't mean poor play necessarily, I mean all things, bots, yolo idiots, bad play, good play and intervention by RNJESUS

 

 

It is a game where people try to sink ships (played by other people or by 'bots).

Some ships are gonna get sunk.

How well someone plays influences the survival of their pixel-bote.  How lucky they are seems to influence it even more, though.  :-D

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All of the above is correct.....  Remember, this game is a cooperative FPS.  One ship of the twelve may or may not make a difference because it's almost a virtual process.....  A huge "give and take" of skills or lack of skills that combine into what team has the most "possibilities" and beyond that, luck determines where the "cascading effect" starts and how it continues.   Averages develop and some assumptions can be made from endless tracking of all game BUT, even that is biased data because the base set of ships changes all of the time....

Remember, "roles" by ship class affect the potential of loss because those roles produce expectations of that ship class and there is some dependence on that assumption.  i.e. spotting the enemy very early game without getting massacred in the first three minutes....  But, as traditional roles fade away, so do the expectations those roles create; and, that infers that this isn't an "ordered process" anymore and that, is the start of "variations on a theme" where what ever happens only resides there and now.......   Too much variation and there is no order.  Which, is where we are today as a game......  As said above is correct and the reason why I very rarely even try Random matches anymore:.......they've become an arcade FFA cooperative FPS, with no established roles or exceptions from those roles and that is not why I came to this game.....

Good luck out there !

Edited by Asym_KS
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I guess it's just confirmation bias on my part

 

I was asking because I seem to be inundated by the following types of scenarios (I only play BB)

2 DDs, 2 Caps   Both DDs go together to the same cap, then DD1 leaves, DD2 dies 30 seconds later leaving my team with the other team firmly entrenched in both caps......or some version of this

 

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My thinking is that, every ship type can be very influential, if one team has it and the other doesn't.

It's mainly that because of their fragile nature, speed, and higher skill floor, (not to mention the greatest ability to YOLO cap, which incentivises people to try it) DDs are the most likely to reach that situation soonest. I mean, how many times do you see a match where one team runs out of BBs, CAs, or CVs early?

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4 minutes ago, Caine said:

I guess it's just confirmation bias on my part

 

I was asking because I seem to be inundated by the following types of scenarios (I only play BB)

2 DDs, 2 Caps   Both DDs go together to the same cap, then DD1 leaves, DD2 dies 30 seconds later leaving my team with the other team firmly entrenched in both caps......or some version of this

 

I think we've all seen those scenarios.     As an interesting experiment, why not get some seat time in a DD?   I mean, you're halfway there to figuring it out, as you constantly see the errors your DDs are making.

Not saying this to be snarky.  I neglected DD play for several years.  And I was seeing the same thing - DDs sinking early, and trying to continue the fight against the reds, while their DDs remained hidden and serving up ample amounts of torp soup.     After a few years of armchair quarterbacking, I figured I could do better than what I was seeing.

So, mid-2019 I hopped back into DDs, and focused on not making the same mistakes that I observed others doing.   They had the Ranked Sprints going on at the time, with T6, T7, and T8 botes, and I decided to get my seat time in there.   I just played DD exclusively.     By focusing on not making the mistakes that DDs are accused of, it tremendously helped situational awareness, and easily exposed the red DDs to make those common mistakes.   

Not only did it make a difference in the outcome of the matches, it boosted my confidence in my DD play, and was actually a fun change of pace.

Give it a try.

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Games played with competent team mates are the biggest factors.  A competent DD can really help take and hold a flank, screen torps for you and such. 

But without a competent cruiser assisting them, even a Solid DD player will struggle to have significant impact against a coordinated enemy,

same goes for BB support - IF the BB stays back too far, he will struggle to support the DD by being a real threat to the enemy cruisers, but if the BB pushes too far up, he gets focused and quickly sunk ... 

and the required skill ceiling to be decent in this game is higher than many realize, along with the random nature of the game and skill match making - amplified of course with the arrival of the 'weekend warriors' or even more challenging 'long weekend warriors' who require many games to shake the rust off, make the Lemming train - yolo rush - 21km sniper play pretty frustrating at times ... 

The only real way you can count on to counter all of this is finding a good clan you can regularly Div with and you form your own DD-Cruiser- BB squad and have the most influence possible on a given flank ... playing regularly with clan mates also improves skill far quicker learning from each other 

As to complexity, I think most would be surprised about how few players actually could describe even each type of detection icon they see on the screen... so complex this "simple" game is

I have begun creating basic "how to's"  on youtube, with content like this handy chart for that reason(there is no single source for this info anywhere)  - I think it important to do what  we can to assist players in learning, and to raise the average skill level we see ... 

If you are new to DD's - I have recently added  basic and intermediate skills "how to "  video's for DD play on my channel

Detection_Chart.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMkS6bmrMYGNt__1Y06UY6w

Edited by Karandar

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6 minutes ago, DiddleDum said:

I think we've all seen those scenarios.     As an interesting experiment, why not get some seat time in a DD?   I mean, you're halfway there to figuring it out, as you constantly see the errors your DDs are making.

Not saying this to be snarky.  I neglected DD play for several years.  And I was seeing the same thing - DDs sinking early, and trying to continue the fight against the reds, while their DDs remained hidden and serving up ample amounts of torp soup.     After a few years of armchair quarterbacking, I figured I could do better than what I was seeing.

So, mid-2019 I hopped back into DDs, and focused on not making the same mistakes that I observed others doing.   They had the Ranked Sprints going on at the time, with T6, T7, and T8 botes, and I decided to get my seat time in there.   I just played DD exclusively.     By focusing on not making the mistakes that DDs are accused of, it tremendously helped situational awareness, and easily exposed the red DDs to make those common mistakes.   

Not only did it make a difference in the outcome of the matches, it boosted my confidence in my DD play, and was actually a fun change of pace.

Give it a try.

I  have played every class and the only one I am good at is BB, I understand how to play the others but don't have the skill or the interest in their play style

Guess I have just been having a larger share of 3 minute and its over matches lately

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You could have Notser, The Kuro guy, a(an) - I say oh7) 07 clan dd specialist and any other unicum in their favorite dd's all on the same team. If all the cruisers are defending the Z line its not much help. There has to be a perfect balance of push/run between all the classes. Since running into 8 ships broadside with, lets say - a Molotov - it's always the lousy team's fault, MM is out to get you, DD's fault, BB's fault, CA and CL fault, CV Rework's fault, internet issues, computer issues, the pr grind, and anything else you can possibly imagine. Welcome to Grief Central.

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Sometimes i go with another DD because can spot while the other smokes up and also for AA.

To often the only thing i can rely on is another DD with me cause he will also die if we don't work together and kill what is trying to kill us.

 

More and more i'm finding CA and BB support is of no use when the crap hits the fan because they are too far back or hiding but a DD is going to be right up there with me.

Go separate caps good for the farmers at the back  but very unsafe for the DDs.

 

Get used to the Meta change CAs and BBs.

 

Edited by Final8ty

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2 hours ago, Caine said:

 

Does anyone else feel that in a given match how the DDs play the game weighs too much on the outcome of the match?

I don't mean poor play necessarily, I mean all things, bots, yolo idiots, bad play, good play and intervention by RNJESUS

 

 

Nope not at all... In fact, of all the other classes fail to produce... The DD by his lonesome, cant carry the fleet...

IMO, the must influence goal you or anyone should try to conserve is the BB adv. against the reds...

If you have the BB adv. for must or all of the match... You'll win %80 of your match... In turn, less then %20 if you lose the BB adv.

DD match play is pennies compared to the workload of the other classes.

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3 hours ago, Caine said:

 

Does anyone else feel that in a given match how the DDs play the game weighs too much on the outcome of the match?

I don't mean poor play necessarily, I mean all things, bots, yolo idiots, bad play, good play and intervention by RNJESUS

 

 

Their impact is as a group. If you have three DD's and if two or heaven forbid all three are lost early in the match without similar losses on the red team your team is at a huge disadvantage.

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35 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Nope not at all... In fact, of all the other classes fail to produce... The DD by his lonesome, cant carry the fleet...

IMO, the must influence goal you or anyone should try to conserve is the BB adv. against the reds...

If you have the BB adv. for must or all of the match... You'll win %80 of your match... In turn, less then %20 if you lose the BB adv.

DD match play is pennies compared to the workload of the other classes.

I disagree its more of a rock paper scissors they of thing , you give me three DDs against three BB , Ill take that all day. They complement each other with the different skill sets in my opinion.

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Yes, there is the same kind of skill gap with DDs as there is... still... the rework didn't fix it... with CVs. Were the team with the better player/s will have a clear advantage. With these ship types the roles they have to play in the game is what makes the skill gap so important. But then that's why Random games are such (fun???)... the unpredictability  of team lineups

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1 minute ago, vikingno2 said:

its more of a rock paper scissors they of thing

WG abandon this format/game governance back in 2017...

That is why I put the odds, especially mid tier to high tiers matches that maintain the BB adv. Its about an %80 win give or take...

Not everyone in a DD will carry the fleet if every other class fail...

Further more, one DD sinking 3 BBs late in the game, its do-able but unlikely, under the conditions I stated in my OP.

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DDs while potentially very powerful are balanced out by low HP, little to no armor, Vulnerability to all types of CV aircraft, fragile modules, DDs can take each other out, CLs are specialized in killing DDs, CAs are good too, Radar, hydro, BB secondary guns can be effective, and even main guns of BBs can be effective particularly when loaded with HE can dev strike a DD.

DDs are fast so they can travel to where ever there are needed faster than most combatants other than CV aircraft, their torpedoes can hit very hard, but are also often highly avoidable with most torpedoes either missing the target or being dodged by the target. Another part of the effectiveness of is the ability to stealthily scout / spot for their teams which can provide invaluable intelligence data on enemy ship movements, and allow BBs and CA line of sight for their guns. And some times the latter ability is the most deadly as I have been a tremendous help to my teams at times not because I was highly successful in torpedo attacks necessarily while using DDs, but from the spotting that allowed my team to wear down the enemy ships in battle.

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3 hours ago, Caine said:

 

Does anyone else feel that in a given match how the DDs play the game weighs too much on the outcome of the match?

I don't mean poor play necessarily, I mean all things, bots, yolo idiots, bad play, good play and intervention by RNJESUS

 

 

image.png.0f7b2209a1421f62818d0d876a5fa219.png

 

Don't worry. Take whatever balance issue you have... and insert image. #Balance #FunAndEngaging

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34 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

WG abandon this format/game governance back in 2017...

That is why I put the odds, especially mid tier to high tiers matches that maintain the BB adv. Its about an %80 win give or take...

Not everyone in a DD will carry the fleet if every other class fail...

Further more, one DD sinking 3 BBs late in the game, its do-able but unlikely, under the conditions I stated in my OP.

Didn't say one said 3, what I was saying is no class other than CV can carry if others fail

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31 minutes ago, vikingno2 said:

Didn't say one said 3, what I was saying is no class other than CV can carry if others fail

That is only partially true.

1.) 3 DD vs 3 BB scenario. Given equal skill. I would still put my money on most BBs only depending on which DD exactly. Now, if Flooding was un-nerfed, there wasn't RPF as a captain skill, and situational awareness went away.... then I would bet on the DDs for sure.

2.) CVs have the "most" carry. Correct. But they are not the only ship type (not class) that can carry when other ship types are failing respectively.

The issue is rooted in the win conditions and ruleset of the game itself.

What are the win conditions of the primary game mode?
 

Quote

image.thumb.png.5880d03e5869b7b9d1ac77ed3898a32b.png


What is the ruleset?
 

Quote

1.) 12 v 12

2.) no SBMM or SWAPMM  (e.g. claimed to be random)

3.) Mirrored by type not class

4.) YOLO (NO RESPAWN MECHANIC)

#2 is certainly a very big one here, but #4 really dictates the foundation of HOW ships must be designed in regards to balanced gameplay. Without a respawn system ALL ships of ALL types must adhere to Risk vs Reward (for the game to even be remotely balanced).

Which ships types do NOT adhere to risk vs reward (at high tier)?

A.) CVs  (Low Risk : High Reward)

B.) BBs  (Low Risk : High Reward)

C.) DDs  (High Risk : Low Reward)

The only way those ratios would even be remotely balanced would if the game had a Respawn system. It does not.

Whilst CVs and BBs are designed by WG to fulfill the absolute HIGHEST impact on match result dictated by the above win conditions, DDs are designed to be the lowest impact. The reason why this creates such broken balance is due to the inherent risk of those ship types. For example, since CVs at any given point in a match, exhibit little to NO risk to their ship type... they should have the LEAST impact on match result dictated by the win conditions. This would mean for the game to be balanced, without increasing the inherent risk for CVs and BBs, either their ability to do damage and get kills needs to be reduced heavily OR a proper counter to those ships needs to be buffed greatly (e.g. AA and ship born torpedoes, Flooding)

Edited by Varknyn12
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Gotcha but most BB don't use RPF;  I wouldn't care if there was no flooding the DDs would win more than the BBs in my opinion and experience

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4 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

All of the above is correct.....  Remember, this game is a cooperative FPS.  One ship of the twelve may or may not make a difference because it's almost a virtual process.....  A huge "give and take" of skills or lack of skills that combine into what team has the most "possibilities" and beyond that, luck determines where the "cascading effect" starts and how it continues.   Averages develop and some assumptions can be made from endless tracking of all game BUT, even that is biased data because the base set of ships changes all of the time....

Remember, "roles" by ship class affect the potential of loss because those roles produce expectations of that ship class and there is some dependence on that assumption.  i.e. spotting the enemy very early game without getting massacred in the first three minutes....  But, as traditional roles fade away, so do the expectations those roles create; and, that infers that this isn't an "ordered process" anymore and that, is the start of "variations on a theme" where what ever happens only resides there and now.......   Too much variation and there is no order.  Which, is where we are today as a game......  As said above is correct and the reason why I very rarely even try Random matches anymore:.......they've become an arcade FFA cooperative FPS, with no established roles or exceptions from those roles and that is not why I came to this game.....

Good luck out there !

Asym, I think that BBs and cruisers generally have their roles.  Some cruisers' roles might vary a little due to ship differences, but they're generally pretty similar.

However, I think that roles become more diverse when you're talking about DDs, on a number of levels.

1. Some DDs are spotters and some just plain are not.  This is nearly entirely a factor of concealment.  More on this later.

2. In this category, I see 4 groupings.  Pure torp boats, torp heavy hybrids, gun heavy hybrids, and pure gun boats.  Torp heavy hybrids tend to have weaker guns and often prefer to not engage in gun fights if they can avoid doing so, but they often have good torps.  And Gun heavy hybrids are the opposite.  Good guns, weak or at least slow loading torps.

But it can get even more differentiated.  Some gunboats are better suited to anti-DD work and aren't great at anti-heavy ship work, while for other gunboats, it's the reverse.  The good anti-DD gunboats (think Daring) tend to have pretty floaty shells and fast turning turrets.  They're quite good at knife fighting.  OTOH, good anti-large ship gunboats (think Khab) seem to have flatter shell arcs, lots of speed, and sluggish turrets.

 

Back to concealment.  I'm a believer in the idea that ALL destroyers should have decently competitive concealment, because non-DD players will always want their DDs to contest caps and spot.  But if you're in a gunboat DD with a putrid concealment, cap contesting is almost always a no-go, because you'll get spotted a mile away, unless you have a super favorable terrain set up that allows you to approach unspotted.  Also, Russian gunboats often have terribly slow turning turrets which make them terrible knife fighters.  I don't think that ALL destroyers have to be carbon copies of one another, but it would be nice if they were all reasonably capable of being cap contesters, etc., if only so that you didn't take a load of crap talk from team mates for refusing to contest caps.  Let's face it.  If your team has only 1-2 DDs and one of them's a Khab, you feel like you're short an actual DD, since the Khab really does feel like it's just a very fast, smallish light cruiser.

Anyways, that's all I have for now.

 

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

Asym, I think that BBs and cruisers generally have their roles.  Some cruisers' roles might vary a little due to ship differences, but they're generally pretty similar.

However, I think that roles become more diverse when you're talking about DDs, on a number of levels.

1. Some DDs are spotters and some just plain are not.  This is nearly entirely a factor of concealment.  More on this later.

2. In this category, I see 4 groupings.  Pure torp boats, torp heavy hybrids, gun heavy hybrids, and pure gun boats.  Torp heavy hybrids tend to have weaker guns and often prefer to not engage in gun fights if they can avoid doing so, but they often have good torps.  And Gun heavy hybrids are the opposite.  Good guns, weak or at least slow loading torps.

But it can get even more differentiated.  Some gunboats are better suited to anti-DD work and aren't great at anti-heavy ship work, while for other gunboats, it's the reverse.  The good anti-DD gunboats (think Daring) tend to have pretty floaty shells and fast turning turrets.  They're quite good at knife fighting.  OTOH, good anti-large ship gunboats (think Khab) seem to have flatter shell arcs, lots of speed, and sluggish turrets.

Back to concealment.  I'm a believer in the idea that ALL destroyers should have decently competitive concealment, because non-DD players will always want their DDs to contest caps and spot.  But if you're in a gunboat DD with a putrid concealment, cap contesting is almost always a no-go, because you'll get spotted a mile away, unless you have a super favorable terrain set up that allows you to approach unspotted.  Also, Russian gunboats often have terribly slow turning turrets which make them terrible knife fighters.  I don't think that ALL destroyers have to be carbon copies of one another, but it would be nice if they were all reasonably capable of being cap contesters, etc., if only so that you didn't take a load of crap talk from team mates for refusing to contest caps.  Let's face it.  If your team has only 1-2 DDs and one of them's a Khab, you feel like you're short an actual DD, since the Khab really does feel like it's just a very fast, smallish light cruiser.

Anyways, that's all I have for now.

True !  Thanks for the reply.

So let's talk about this game and DD's....  Your four types is well said and valid.  But, the game's value proposition is WW2 surface naval warfare....  OK, with that, comes the roles and expectations of those roles history used to arm and create those DD's.  As players, I came to this game because it was built "around" WW2 surface warfare where the DD's roles and the expectations from those roles sat within the value proposition itself: WW surface warfare via the ship classes of that era.....  And, for the first year in game, that is what seemed to "mostly" exist with some wonky physics adding or detracting from the effect.....   Then, the cruiser line split and DD's primary strength, stealth was eliminated with Radar from 1969.....  Then, Carriers were added to the small, time compressed maps and DD's entire roles were eliminated to the point a great many players left the game or stopped playing Randoms or even stopped playing DD's.   That un balanced the base of the games "Value Proposition" by now eliminating/curtailing an entire class of historic ship roles and responsibilities.....

You are correct and DD's are part of the "gimmick sales" this corporation uses to make money.   But, for a great many of us, we no longer accept what our host has done and aren't shy to say so.  This was a great game !  Now, it's just like all other cooperative FPS's out there:  gimmick to gimmick to gimmick.........till all of the mature players who came here for WW2 historic naval warfare leave.....or, retire to play every once and a while....

I deal with asymmetry all of the time and retired from fixing complex "systems" in all sorts of corporations and service organizations.... Trust me, the game is like a ceiling fan with a nicked wooded blade........it wobbles, makes noise and will circulate air till the wobble gets so bad, the machinery breaks down....  That is my point:  DD's were one of the fan blades and Radar/Planes nicked them and the game, is wobbling and getting a lot worse of late....   Real risk is the only remedy to this trip to Abilene and that is all that can fix this game.....  It's a question if our host even realizes where and what Abilene is..........  Want to bet they don't?  Anyone want to take a guess>?  Some hints: action anxiety, fear of separation, reversal of risk and certainty, et al......

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