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FrodoFraggin

Take em back out

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<vent>

Programming fair AI is clearly beyond your capabilities, WG. In this specific case, its the bot CVs that beeline to a DD.  While other bot classes also tend to be DD obsessive, they have visibility rules to follow - bot CVs break those rules. 

No wonder plane heavy Scenarios aren't in the rotation.  They're some of the best Scenarios, but my opinion of them would probably change if they were allowed back in with the St Petersburg's finest plane AI.

Too preoccupied with other stuff to work on PVE, I've heard it.  If PVE isn't worth the time of day, why not drop the modes from the game?  You wouldn't dare because your spreadsheets tell you a lot of people play these modes.  If the modes are worth keeping in the game, they are worth supporting - so do a half-a$$ job, at least.

Frankly, everything coming up, be it Subs, the next April Fools/Halloween, the next tech line of papers ships - you know the things you think are really important and deserving of all your resources, for me personally, I couldn't give a rats a$$ about a single one while your *existing* issues persist.

</vent>

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I love it when the bot CVs go after my DDs.  They can't harm me and I get a bunch of plane kills to help pad the stats some.  Even Shimakaze with that awful IJN AA capability can swat a bunch of planes.  When I use my DDs for Co-op and get a CV game, I pray the planes come my way from start to finish.

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1 minute ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I love it when the bot CVs go after my DDs.  They can't harm me and I get a bunch of plane kills to help pad the stats some.  Even Shimakaze with that awful IJN AA capability can swat a bunch of planes.  When I use my DDs for Co-op and get a CV game, I pray the planes come my way from start to finish.

All but 1 DD...Shinonome only a 1 AA.. They should give it a small BUFF.

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I love it when the bot CVs go after my DDs.  They can't harm me and I get a bunch of plane kills to help pad the stats some.  Even Shimakaze with that awful IJN AA capability can swat a bunch of planes.  When I use my DDs for Co-op and get a CV game, I pray the planes come my way from start to finish.

I had looked forward to co op CVs coming back after the rework so one didn’t have to head into Random for “shoot down X planes” type directives.  A simple “head to center of map and start circular search pattern”, or even a round robin change of targets would be a vast improvement over “head to nearest DD and obsess over it until it’s dead”

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6 minutes ago, cecill611 said:

All but 1 DD...Shinonome only a 1 AA.. They should give it a small BUFF.

Yes, they should double its AA!

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Me; Buys Kidd and plays it for the first time today 

Bot CV focus me the whole game

Me after the match

 

dced3f56bb1fd1f42f72c877b699ce5eafa9036c_hq.jpg

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1 hour ago, FrodoFraggin said:

<vent>

Programming fair AI is clearly beyond your capabilities, WG. In this specific case, its the bot CVs that beeline to a DD.  While other bot classes also tend to be DD obsessive, they have visibility rules to follow - bot CVs break those rules. 

No wonder plane heavy Scenarios aren't in the rotation.  They're some of the best Scenarios, but my opinion of them would probably change if they were allowed back in with the St Petersburg's finest plane AI.

Too preoccupied with other stuff to work on PVE, I've heard it.  If PVE isn't worth the time of day, why not drop the modes from the game?  You wouldn't dare because your spreadsheets tell you a lot of people play these modes.  If the modes are worth keeping in the game, they are worth supporting - so do a half-a$$ job, at least.

Frankly, everything coming up, be it Subs, the next April Fools/Halloween, the next tech line of papers ships - you know the things you think are really important and deserving of all your resources, for me personally, I couldn't give a rats a$$ about a single one while your *existing* issues persist.

</vent>

And, that's a good thing !  First-In and First-shot is a logical rule.........  The entire game AI reacts to the DD's in the game.   Play a map with DD's and then play the same map with NO DD's....  Ah, they play differently. 

I want the rest of the scenarios back because we only play COOP and Scenarios.  The rest is trashed out and not worth doing in my opinion.

Should our host take the time for those of us whom are only in this game for PVE?  Yes, but they won't......  PVE is where the real money is and their efforts are only aimed at revenue sources.

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50 minutes ago, Triela50 said:

Me; Buys Kidd and plays it for the first time today 

Bot CV focus me the whole game

Me after the match

 

dced3f56bb1fd1f42f72c877b699ce5eafa9036c_hq.jpg

Try Friesland.

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13 minutes ago, Lert said:

Try Friesland.

I would but the price tag is twice that of the Kidd for being one tier higher seems to me is a bit much 

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8 minutes ago, Triela50 said:

I would but the price tag is twice that of the Kidd for being one tier higher seems to me is a bit much 

It's also arguably the single CV-proof destroyer in the game.

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

It's also arguably the single CV-proof destroyer in the game.

That is most likely true. But for the price the Kidd gets the job done well enough 

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13 minutes ago, Triela50 said:

I would but the price tag is twice that of the Kidd for being one tier higher seems to me is a bit much 

1 million free xp won’t cost you a cent.

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1 minute ago, Nevermore135 said:

1 million free xp won’t cost you a cent.

to unlock the 1 million free xp it will cost you 40000 gold or $140 dollars or if you want it for free just play 2000 battles and hope you average 500 free xp per battle or spend 38 bucks get a Kidd which is almost as good and has torps 

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4 hours ago, Triela50 said:

to unlock the 1 million free xp it will cost you 40000 gold or $140 dollars or if you want it for free just play 2000 battles and hope you average 500 free xp per battle or spend 38 bucks get a Kidd which is almost as good and has torps 

Kidd also has Repair Party, which is in the DD World, an extremely rare benefit.

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The bots all have RPF, even the planes. They know where the closest enemy ship is and they tend to head toward that closest ship. Probably the easiest programming gimmick to keep them from wandering off to the far corners of the map. I do wonder if they also know what type of ship they are locating. The bot planes especially seem to always head toward a DD even when there was a cruiser that was a tad closer to the planes originally.

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Does it matter if the CV can find you in your DD?

If you do anything to evade, the bot planes can't hit you.  

I've slowly shot down most of a squadron of bot rocket planes by just setting a Cossack (of all ships) to max rudder, and letting it go in circles while I drank my coffee and watched the planes fly around and around trying to line up a shot that they were never going to get.   I'd have shot them all down but the BB coming up behind me finished them off.  

On the far end of the scale, I've literally mulched an entire squadron in a couple seconds by popping DFAA and Priority at the same time with Friesland, many times. 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

 

On the far end of the scale, I've literally mulched an entire squadron in a couple seconds by popping DFAA and Priority at the same time with Friesland, many times. 

 

 

 

Done that in a Dallas.  DD ran behind me.  Got the fighter up.  Between that, DFAA, and priority sector,  the squadron just disappeared. 

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3 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Done that in a Dallas.  DD ran behind me.  Got the fighter up.  Between that, DFAA, and priority sector,  the squadron just disappeared. 

It's possible with the AA on quite a few ships, such as just about any USN cruiser with DFAA.  Just used Friesland as my DD example since it seems to be the most potent AA platform of any DD I've played. 

 

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17 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Does it matter if the CV can find you in your DD?

If you do anything to evade, the bot planes can't hit you.  

I've slowly shot down most of a squadron of bot rocket planes by just setting a Cossack (of all ships) to max rudder, and letting it go in circles while I drank my coffee and watched the planes fly around and around trying to line up a shot that they were never going to get.   I'd have shot them all down but the BB coming up behind me finished them off.  

On the far end of the scale, I've literally mulched an entire squadron in a couple seconds by popping DFAA and Priority at the same time with Friesland, many times. 

WG even implemented a clearly visible cheat for Bot CV aircraft.  Their squadrons can do very abrupt, 180 degree turns.  Aircraft agility that anyone that's played CVs can tell is impossible to do as a player.  Player aircraft will have to do significantly wider turns.  Even with Bot planes having maneuverability cheats, they can't accurately drop ordnance.

 

The same CV Rework mechanics where players have a much more hands-on process to use ordnance, makes it difficult for the bots to do attacks.  The mechanics that players have to "steady out" their flight to narrow the aiming reticle doesn't work for bots.  The bots are constantly shifting their course accounting for player movement, and all that ensures is the AI squads never drop good, tight torpedo / bomb / rocket spreads.  You can see this as rocket, bomb, torpedo spreads are very wide in their dispersion.  It's most abundantly clear when they're torpedo drops, as you can see the torp wakes spread in a very wide "V" pattern, a sign that the squadron never had time to steady itself out like a CV player would have.

 

A CV Player would have to aim ahead and predict where the target will be and steady the squadron out in a straight course of flying, and when the reticle is narrow enough, drop ordnance when ready.  Bot AI can't do that.

 

It's pretty funny to watch.  The AI can't even handle that if the target ship is sailing towards the attacking squadron, that torpedoes need to be dropped much earlier.  The torps end up being dropped too short to the target and bouncing off the hull as the torps didn't have time to arm :Smile_teethhappy: 

 

I'd say the Bot CV AI was slightly more dangerous in the RTS CV days because auto-drops worked, but it did not work as well for the Bot CVs as it should because the AI did not do mass bomber attacks like a player could, i.e. attack you with 2 TB + 2 DB squads at the same time.  But today, the Rework CV AI is harmless.

 

Now, BBs will be hit more by the Rebork CVs, but it's not like 1 air dropped torpedo or 1 bomb actually hurts a Battleship much at all :Smile_veryhappy:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Does it matter if the CV can find you in your DD?

If you do anything to evade, the bot planes can't hit you.  

I've slowly shot down most of a squadron of bot rocket planes by just setting a Cossack (of all ships) to max rudder, and letting it go in circles while I drank my coffee and watched the planes fly around and around trying to line up a shot that they were never going to get.   I'd have shot them all down but the BB coming up behind me finished them off.  

On the far end of the scale, I've literally mulched an entire squadron in a couple seconds by popping DFAA and Priority at the same time with Friesland, many times. 

Yes, yes, yes you keep making this point and you're not wrong.

But also yes, it does matter if the CV can just auto-find you via RPF (and it's not really RPF because it also knows what you are not just your bearing). It's not that the cv's attacks are lethal or even dangerous. They're usually laughably inept.

It's the SPOTTING. Always the spotting. Once spotted, every enemy bot in range fires at you, forcing you to stop whatever you were planning to do and dive for cover or execute a max turn to avoid being clobbered by perfectly aimed shots. There is no hide and seek intrigue at play here, only cheap Just Dodge™ mechanics. Your only efficient counter as a dd is to drag those incoming planes to a friendly high AA source to whither them as fast as possible and shorten your time being spotted.

So yeah, it's nice to get a few plane kills (more than a few if I'm in Friesland) but for me it doesn't offset being a guaranteed duck in a shooting gallery at the beginning of every cv match. If the bot cv actually had to search for me knowing only what other human players would know, I'd have no argument at all.

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1 minute ago, aardvark7734 said:

Yes, yes, yes you keep making this point and you're not wrong.

But also yes, it does matter if the CV can just auto-find you via RPF (and it's not really RPF because it also knows what you are not just your bearing). It's not that the cv's attacks are lethal or even dangerous. They're usually laughably inept.

It's the SPOTTING. Always the spotting. Once spotted, every enemy bot in range fires at you, forcing you to stop whatever you were planning to do and dive for cover or execute a max turn to avoid being clobbered by perfectly aimed shots. There is no hide and seek intrigue at play here, only cheap Just Dodge™ mechanics. Your only efficient counter as a dd is to drag those incoming planes to a friendly high AA source to whither them as fast as possible and shorten your time being spotted.

So yeah, it's nice to get a few plane kills (more than a few if I'm in Friesland) but for me it doesn't offset being a guaranteed duck in a shooting gallery at the beginning of every cv match. If the bot cv actually had to search for me knowing only what other human players would know, I'd have no argument at all.

If there's an enemy carrier in Co-op, assume you're going to be spotted, and plan for that until it's clear the bot is sending planes elsewhere or its aircraft have been culled a time or two.  

I've even used being spotted to bait the bots into firing in my general direction for a moment, while I concentrated on evading, and popping smoke and/or getting behind the nearby island... thus farming aircraft kills, spotting ribbons on the bots that revealed themselves, and potential damage, all at once in a DD.  

There's nothing wrong with circling back under the AA bubble of a friendly for 30 seconds and tag-teaming the aircraft, either.

For those DDs that just have to get out in front, stay out in front, and farm all the damage and kills as fast as possible now now now, and never concern themselves with anything else, I can see where the CVs would be a hindrance to that approach. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

If there's an enemy carrier in Co-op, assume you're going to be spotted, and plan for that until it's clear the bot is sending planes elsewhere or its aircraft have been culled a time or two.  

I've even used being spotted to bait the bots into firing in my general direction for a moment, while I concentrated on evading, and popping smoke and/or getting behind the nearby island... thus farming aircraft kills, spotting ribbons on the bots that revealed themselves, and potential damage, all at once in a DD.  

There's nothing wrong with circling back under the AA bubble of a friendly for 30 seconds and tag-teaming the aircraft, either.

For those DDs that just have to get out in front, stay out in front, and farm all the damage and kills as fast as possible now now now, and never concern themselves with anything else, I can see where the CVs would be a hindrance to that approach. 

Of course people, being the clever little primates we are, can come up with all kinds of mitigating strategies for the reasonable and unreasonable situations they find themselves in. Some of these even have side benefits.

But being able to make the best of an unjust situation, while admirable, does not make the situation any less unjust. And while I may applaud your ingenuity, I do not agree that the problem is that players just won't play better. The base problem is that WG does not care if players and AIs are not playing by the same set of rules. They may never care, but if no one complains it is a certainty that they never will.

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4 hours ago, aardvark7734 said:

Yes, yes, yes you keep making this point and you're not wrong.

But also yes, it does matter if the CV can just auto-find you via RPF (and it's not really RPF because it also knows what you are not just your bearing). It's not that the cv's attacks are lethal or even dangerous. They're usually laughably inept.

It's the SPOTTING. Always the spotting. Once spotted, every enemy bot in range fires at you, forcing you to stop whatever you were planning to do and dive for cover or execute a max turn to avoid being clobbered by perfectly aimed shots. There is no hide and seek intrigue at play here, only cheap Just Dodge™ mechanics. Your only efficient counter as a dd is to drag those incoming planes to a friendly high AA source to whither them as fast as possible and shorten your time being spotted.

So yeah, it's nice to get a few plane kills (more than a few if I'm in Friesland) but for me it doesn't offset being a guaranteed duck in a shooting gallery at the beginning of every cv match. If the bot cv actually had to search for me knowing only what other human players would know, I'd have no argument at all.

WASD keys.

Or Smoke.  The big risk from getting spotted by air and then shot at is typically only at the start of the match, when the teams are still full and you can have 3 or so ships shooting at you.  But usually with my DD I am already close to the cap after the first planes, so smoking up near the cap and I'm already where I wanted to be with my DD to begin with.  Outside that early phase of the game, those planes are zero risk to me.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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20 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

WASD keys.

Or Smoke.  The big risk from getting spotted by air and then shot at is typically only at the start of the match, when the teams are still full and you can have 3 or so ships shooting at you.  But usually with my DD I am already close to the cap after the first planes, so smoking up near the cap and I'm already where I wanted to be with my DD to begin with.  Outside that early phase of the game, those planes are zero risk to me.

Just thinking out loud here, so as the kids say, "don't at me" (I have no idea if I'm using that correctly, I don't twitter.) 

One thing they could do to make bot aircraft a LITTLE more threatening is making the AI better at cycling aircraft types, and putting the aircraft type into its target choice algorithm somewhere.

This would also have the benefit of the AI not fixating on one player repeatedly so often, by pushing the AI to look at other target ships depending on which bomber type it had in flight. 

So the threat would be a bit bigger, but it would also be a bit more spread out. 

 

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