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TriHard_DodgeDealership

italian cruisers are already meh and forgotten about

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They were already too vulnerable and underpowered but they've already been eclipsed by the already kind of meh British heavy cruisers, which despite being meh themselves are much better ships, they offer much more utility to the team and consistent damage through HE and fires. Brit cruisers have super heal, def AA, hydro. ITA cruisers have a gimmick smoke on a 5 business day cooldown, and a gimmick ammo type that isn't even good in low tiers due to weird BB armor schemes, with ridiculously long reloads on top. I can buy Brindisi right now, but I realized, I think I will just save the credits. It's not worth it tbh. To this day the only good ITA ship is the GC. Roma could have been good but its dispersion is stormtrooper tier. 

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I honestly dont see anything they do that the IJN do better. Destroying dds? Sure SAP is good but so is IJN HE. Pure pens on bbs for nice damage sometimes? Well you can do that with hindenburg with IFHE or henri.  Its just a mediocre line and them running out of gimmicks

 

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Under T8, I'll agree they need some help.  T8 and above, they are very strong.  Massive damage to anyone at pretty much any angle and fairly hard to hit (from my experience) citadels.  Fairly long range guns with good accuracy.  I enjoy the high tier ITA's.

Edited by Old_Baldy_One
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I think that the Italian (RM) CAs could use a second look because they do seem so lacking.  However, I wouldn't expect any action in this regard until perhaps mid-year, because WG usually says that they need time to collect data.

I don't think that the RM CAs are horrible.  They're just lacking and not really enjoyable to play, in large part due to their long gun reloads and the very often underwhelming SAP ammo.  The ships themselves seem enjoyable to sail around the maps.  Their torps would be nicer if they hit somewhat harder.  I can deal with the torps being slow because they're so difficult to detect.  But their damage is so low, it often doesn't seem like it's worth trying to create situations to use them, even from stealth.

 

One potential upside that's worth considering regarding the RM and RN CAs is that while people think that they're kinda meh, one certainly can't complain that they're OP and power creeping anyone.  So there is that.

 

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1 minute ago, TriHard_DodgeDealership said:

spreadsheets mean nothing tbh. a spreadsheet cant measure fun and it cant measure game impact

Fair enough.  I enjoy playing mine but will admit, my WR in her was good at the start and now its terrible (over 46 games).  That's about par for me though.  I have a few ships that it seemingly doesn't matter what I do, the team doesn't win.

That said, top 3 in all statistical categories can't really be dismissed completely.  SAP is brutal.

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4 minutes ago, Suzutsuki_Kai said:

I honestly dont see anything they do that the IJN do better. Destroying dds? Sure SAP is good but so is IJN HE. Pure pens on bbs for nice damage sometimes? Well you can do that with hindenburg with IFHE or henri.  Its just a mediocre line and them running out of gimmicks

 

Suzu, I don't think that it's a case of running out of gimmicks.  The gimmicks (consumables) that the RM CAs have are decent enough, unless you call their SAP a gimmick.  But the thing is with SAP, it's not a problem of running out of gimmicks so much as it is that the gimmick they did create (i.e. SAP) is rather weak against anything with some armor.  You can fire it at BBs, but it's terribly hit or miss as to whether the hits you do get will do anything worthwhile.  And that's frustrating.

Also, SAP in this form wouldn't be as frustrating (perhaps) if all ships were using SAP.  But they're not.  So, you have a line of CAs that lack an ammo that can damage any enemy ship from nearly any angle, plus you don't get any chance of fire, i.e. DOT damage.

Personally, I think that it would be entirely possible for the devs to make RM CAs more enjoyable to play, though what form that adjustment would take is up for grabs.

1. They could replace SAP with HE on the CAs.

2. They could completely change RM SAP to work in a different way.  RN CL "AP" being one example.

3. They could give SAP a chance to start fires.

4. They could change some of the details about the existing SAP to increase the chances of damaging hits on angled targets.

5. They should (IMO) decrease the reload times on RM CAs.  To me, there's no justification for their long reloads, because it's not like their alpha damage is all that great and needed to be balanced by long reloads.

6. Increase the alpha damage on their torps, so that they feel a little more worthwhile to use.

 

I think that changes along these lines would really help the RM CAs become more enjoyable to play.

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Suzu, I don't think that it's a case of running out of gimmicks.  The gimmicks (consumables) that the RM CAs have are decent enough, unless you call their SAP a gimmick.  But the thing is with SAP, it's not a problem of running out of gimmicks so much as it is that the gimmick they did create (i.e. SAP) is rather weak against anything with some armor.  You can fire it at BBs, but it's terribly hit or miss as to whether the hits you do get will do anything worthwhile.  And that's frustrating.

Also, SAP in this form wouldn't be as frustrating (perhaps) if all ships were using SAP.  But they're not.  So, you have a line of CAs that lack an ammo that can damage any enemy ship from nearly any angle, plus you don't get any chance of fire, i.e. DOT damage.

Personally, I think that it would be entirely possible for the devs to make RM CAs more enjoyable to play, though what form that adjustment would take is up for grabs.

1. They could replace SAP with HE on the CAs.

2. They could completely change RM SAP to work in a different way.  RN CL "AP" being one example.

3. They could give SAP a chance to start fires.

4. They could change some of the details about the existing SAP to increase the chances of damaging hits on angled targets.

5. They should (IMO) decrease the reload times on RM CAs.  To me, there's no justification for their long reloads, because it's not like their alpha damage is all that great and needed to be balanced by long reloads.

6. Increase the alpha damage on their torps, so that they feel a little more worthwhile to use.

 

I think that changes along these lines would really help the RM CAs become more enjoyable to play.

Fair enough. TBH i find sap works nice and is stronger in lower tier games. I find often i do a lot of damage in the lower tier italians with sap cause of the reload is better. But upper tier its just okie at best.

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T10 is a handful when played well but I don’t like the line and I don’t think I have played vinny in a random

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Actually, the Italians proved to be very good at something not intended. 

In fact, the last 3 lines (French DDs, Italian Cruisers, British CAs) and to some extent the Russian BBs, have given me an opportunity to spend more time on the lines I never fully developed.  I may be the exception, but I can't play all the influx of new ships we've seen the past year.  I think I heard one CC say 32 Premiums alone were introduced in 2019! I just decided to take the fire hose out of my mouth for a while.

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Funny story, you say brindisi isn't worth it but it was my most successful t9 tech tree cruiser and very strong. The Venezia is incredible and can have massive impact especially when played well. It's one of the best ships in the game. 

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I'm generally predisposed to liking Italian ships - I've been a fan of the Zaras since long before WoWs even existed. I say with confidence, as someone who might otherwise be accused of bias: outside the tier 10, the tree is useless garbage based on two bad gimmicks. It's a joke. 

Most people don't play garbage willingly in a competitive setting. Is there really any surprise that the tree is dead and buried?

Edited by Battlecruiser_Repulse
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7 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

Funny story, you say brindisi isn't worth it but it was my most successful t9 tech tree cruiser and very strong. The Venezia is incredible and can have massive impact especially when played well. It's one of the best ships in the game. 

Pretty much this. More, once you figure out how to play them, they can in fact control a match. SAP sends DD's right back to port, shreds cruisers, and knocks 10k+ chunks out of BB's. They're fast, they can hide when they need to, and they still have AP to just make it nice and rounded out.

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2 hours ago, TriHard_DodgeDealership said:

They were already too vulnerable and underpowered but they've already been eclipsed by the already kind of meh British heavy cruisers, which despite being meh themselves are much better ships, they offer much more utility to the team and consistent damage through HE and fires. Brit cruisers have super heal, def AA, hydro. ITA cruisers have a gimmick smoke on a 5 business day cooldown, and a gimmick ammo type that isn't even good in low tiers due to weird BB armor schemes, with ridiculously long reloads on top. I can buy Brindisi right now, but I realized, I think I will just save the credits. It's not worth it tbh. To this day the only good ITA ship is the GC. Roma could have been good but its dispersion is stormtrooper tier. 

You're wrong .  Case closed ! 

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I play my RM in coop.  I would agree that under t8 they are meh.  Amalfi seems to be ok, but not sure how much I will play her in the future.  Brindisi I need to buy back since I sold some ships to get other T10s.  I would play her at least once a day.  As for Venezia, I am having a blast playing her.  She gets at least 1-2 battles every day.

 

Edit:  I can't say anything about the upper RN CA line as the only one I got so far is the Hawkins, and those single guns turrets are driving me crazy.

Edited by kyesac

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34 minutes ago, TheKrimzonD3mon said:

Pretty much this. More, once you figure out how to play them, they can in fact control a match. SAP sends DD's right back to port, shreds cruisers, and knocks 10k+ chunks out of BB's. They're fast, they can hide when they need to, and they still have AP to just make it nice and rounded out.

Don’t necessarily dislike them, but as of yet haven’t been motivated to advance past Montewhatsit.

Likely just going to use Duca Acosta and Gorizia in Naval Battles.

Gorizia is unique to an extent in that it’s one of the few ships I have a Kraken in.

That, and the 6k hydro have kind of endeared it to me.

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2 hours ago, TriHard_DodgeDealership said:

They were already too vulnerable and underpowered but they've already been eclipsed by the already kind of meh British heavy cruisers, which despite being meh themselves are much better ships, they offer much more utility to the team and consistent damage through HE and fires. Brit cruisers have super heal, def AA, hydro. ITA cruisers have a gimmick smoke on a 5 business day cooldown, and a gimmick ammo type that isn't even good in low tiers due to weird BB armor schemes, with ridiculously long reloads on top. I can buy Brindisi right now, but I realized, I think I will just save the credits. It's not worth it tbh. To this day the only good ITA ship is the GC. Roma could have been good but its dispersion is stormtrooper tier. 

Interesting, because Amalfi, Brindisi, and Venezia are probably among the best cruisers of their tier, despite the long reloads, weird smoke, no hydro, and any angling bascically negates their guns (save Venezia because her autobounce angles are quite insane.

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their smoke is very good you just use it in different situations, there is value in instantly disappearing

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3 hours ago, Old_Baldy_One said:

377013970_Screenshot(7).thumb.png.249fbd96342318f2f79f701e8b92399c.png

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Under T8, I'll agree they need some help.  T8 and above, they are very strong.  Massive damage to anyone at pretty much any angle and fairly hard to hit (from my experience) citadels.  Fairly long range guns with good accuracy.  I enjoy the high tier ITA's.

Higher tier lacks high devastating alphs.

Only chance of dev striking a ship, is if it's a dd....

Complete support ships, sitting back at max range being completely unable to influence a match.

They need a lower cooldown on spotter and a reload of around 13 seconds. 

I free exp'd the last 85k of brandisi hoping venza would be better, so far 2 games and her AP is trash.

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A thing can be technically effective but still a chore to use.

How much damage a ship is averaging doesn't tell you if players are finding doing that damage fun.

But.. I think the case against the Italian cruisers might be overstated in some cases. 

 

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Clan battles are normally a position battle, WG made a ship, the Stalingrad. That is super tanky has long range radar, great AP and 20 to 30 thousand more HP than many of the other tier ten cruisers. So of courser you are going to get that ship allot. Clan battle is not a good example due to the Stalingrad skewing the play style.The Italian cruiser isn't bad good flanker and I have seen it more than let say the Worcester, Colbert, Mino but why bring it at all when you have a tournament that perfectly fits a certain ships strengths.

I stand by post I made last year, it should be a battleship not a cruiser, now teams bring two maybe three Stalin's and they effectively have an additional ships worth of HP. In a slow paced position battle of course you bring it . Steel is a revenue generating process so WG has e made a good business choice. Clan battle is not really a good indicator of a ship, it does point out very well which ships are either OP or can be exploited for the situation.

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