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Slayer_Jesse

Away from game 1 year, lost with cv rework.

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Hey guys. I wasn't able to play for the past year but I'm back now. I'm a bit lost on the state of AA now, and what skills are good.  I've got Montana, des memes, war Chester, and gearing. Also got lion and nep trying to get conqueror and mino. I've also got Atlanta.

I missed the free skill resets, so I'm going to have to do this over time with elite captain  xp.

My questions are:

1: in general,  how does defensive fire work now?

2: are main caliber flak boats (worc, mino) worth buffing their main caliber aa?

3: is taking defensive fire on dd's that Get it worthwhile, or is it more to survive drops?

4: for bbs, are you better off aa building,  or just trying to buff survival?

5: what carrier skills are considered good? I was never a CV player before, but I'm willing to give them a shot now.

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You're going to love how this thread goes.....    

I'd suggest youtube and scouring the forums.... there is a ton of info here you need, more than can be covered in a post. .. This has all changed more than a lot.    

There is going to be more than a few opinions about this all as well, as you will soon see.    

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Put it this way. If the CV wants you dead. You will die. Its a matter of how much time the CV wants to dedicate to ruining your game experience.  On the other end of things, if the CV is spending a large amount of time trying to kill you, he is leaving your team alone. etc

AA skills are borderline worthless and AA really only does something if you are grouped up with other ships.  There are a few outliers like Friesland that murder planes.

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15 minutes ago, Slayer_Jesse said:

1: in general,  how does defensive fire work now?

There are two changes to DFAA you'll need to know.  First, it no longer has the panic feature that was a debuff to aircraft aiming.  The second is that it is fixed +50% increase to AA DPS, and it buffs flak damage by 300% now.  The extra flak damage seems to be of minimal effect since hitting flak was already deadly.  For DDs with DFAA like Gearing, Groz this was a massive nerf with their DFAA now being cut to +50% from +200%.

22 minutes ago, Slayer_Jesse said:

2: are main caliber flak boats (worc, mino) worth buffing their main caliber aa?

Opinions on this are split.  It all comes down to wanting an AA build or not.

25 minutes ago, Slayer_Jesse said:

4: for bbs, are you better off aa building,  or just trying to buff survival?

General consensus still seems to be survival builds are better overall.

Your Montana, DM and Wooster are "good" AA ships, but the Gearing and Atlanta are nothing like they used to be.  I strongly suggest you do your homework before going all in on your builds.  Good luck.

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31 minutes ago, Slayer_Jesse said:

1: in general,  how does defensive fire work now?

2: are main caliber flak boats (worc, mino) worth buffing their main caliber aa?

3: is taking defensive fire on dd's that Get it worthwhile, or is it more to survive drops?

4: for bbs, are you better off aa building,  or just trying to buff survival?

5: what carrier skills are considered good? I was never a CV player before, but I'm willing to give them a shot now.

1) In short... to doesn't work. It just increases the DPS by 50% (also boost flak but nobody cares cause they just dodge it.)

2) Not really.

3)It's not worth taking ever. In anything.

4) Survival, all AA skills have been nerfed into the ground.  No such thing as AA builds anymore.

5) Don't be a part of cancer that is ruining this game. (Seriously, that's part of a larger conversation, CVs play very differently than before, not as much fun but maybe simpler. So even if you used to be bad doesn't mean you will be on the new CVs. Most of the CV specific captain skill are good for CVs)

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1 hour ago, Slayer_Jesse said:

Hey guys. I wasn't able to play for the past year but I'm back now. I'm a bit lost on the state of AA now, and what skills are good.  I've got Montana, des memes, war Chester, and gearing. Also got lion and nep trying to get conqueror and mino. I've also got Atlanta.

I missed the free skill resets, so I'm going to have to do this over time with elite captain  xp.

My questions are:

1: in general,  how does defensive fire work now?

2: are main caliber flak boats (worc, mino) worth buffing their main caliber aa?

3: is taking defensive fire on dd's that Get it worthwhile, or is it more to survive drops?

4: for bbs, are you better off aa building,  or just trying to buff survival?

5: what carrier skills are considered good? I was never a CV player before, but I'm willing to give them a shot now.

Jesse, beyond what others have told you, there's a new AA Sectors mechanic that's very effective if used properly.  You use the 'O' (the "Oh" key, not the "zero" key) for it.  What you do is look in the direction you want your ship's AA strengthened, then press the 'O' key.  Then for a certain amount of time, your AA is stronger on that side of the ship, which is then followed by a sector cooldown.  There is no limit on the number of times you can use your AA sectors.

It's worth noting that some ships have concealment (by air) ranges that are less than their max AA range, while some are equal, and others have AA ranges that are less than their concealment ranges.  The first of these situations is the one that's worth knowing, because if you're in a DD with AA that's greater than your concealment (by air) range, you definitely want to be turning off your AA so that you don't get spotted by your AA firing, if you're all by your lonesome.  OTOH, if you're in a BB, you don't give a flip about this because you're going to be detected by planes far beyond your max AA range, so you'll probably just leave your AA on all the time.  As for cruisers, it depends on the specific ship.

 

I thought that I'd mention these two things to you because they're a little more subtle than the other stuff that you'd learn pretty quickly.  But these two things are definitely worth learning and understanding.

 

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You'll find that CVs are both not fun to play or play against. Nobody really wins. They should just be removed, but WG is very stubborn, and they're ok with losing a large swathe of players who would've paid money to them if the game didn't have CVs.

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Watch Zoup' videos on YouTube. He has a breakdown on what you need and how to play. He keeps it technical for the most part.

As for going in, I suggest honing the drop skills in co-op.

At least you get reasonable income with that practice.

Torpedo Accel is your friend.

Use any skills or flags that enhance heal of TBs, and planes in general. The signal for reload of consumables helps with plane replenish.

Speed is important. So is turning into a ship after 1st pass to avoid the outer bubble flak , and slowing down quickly to do a second drop.

I use an S-turn. That is after you made the first torp drop. You slow down by banking left and right to line up a new drop. This slows the bombers without the use of breaking much.

I also do a quick strafe across several ships by dropping 1 ship, then seeing the next target about 7-8 km near, and hitting that one. If you do it as close to linear as possible, you Accel, drop, Accel drop.

AP is well all about timing and alignment.

I usually line up behind, and drop.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Slayer_Jesse said:

1: in general,  how does defensive fire work now?

2: are main caliber flak boats (worc, mino) worth buffing their main caliber aa?

3: is taking defensive fire on dd's that Get it worthwhile, or is it more to survive drops?

4: for bbs, are you better off aa building,  or just trying to buff survival?

5: what carrier skills are considered good? I was never a CV player before, but I'm willing to give them a shot now.

1. Same as before, you active the skill and give an small buff to your AA + a big buff to long range aa (i think is between 3 and 6km aa)

2. If you really really really hate cvs yes, but in general is waste of points and not going make you unvunerable as before rework.

3. Normaly no, its... depends. Friedland AA is good, gearing can be ok, grozovoi... well, its depends from the build in general.

4. Buff survival+Dont sail alone is ok to bbs.

5. its depends, i'm using this ones:

IJN:

image.thumb.png.ed37821dfbf4a34eea7f443a9c19cc19.png

USN:

image.thumb.png.70699d553a08f0fc151fe07c4fc626ee.png

UK:

image.thumb.png.ee0795b7c806270998505852b43294c4.png

 

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2 hours ago, Crucis said:

Jesse, beyond what others have told you, there's a new AA Sectors mechanic that's very effective if used properly. 

No it isn't.

2 hours ago, Crucis said:

You use the 'O' (the "Oh" key, not the "zero" key) for it.  What you do is look in the direction you want your ship's AA strengthened, then press the 'O' key. 

Then you say "OH WOW, THAT DIDN'T WORK AT ALL!" Then you die!

2 hours ago, Crucis said:

Then for a certain amount of time, your AA is stronger on that side of the ship, which is then followed by a sector cooldown.  There is no limit on the number of times you can use your AA sectors.

NOTE: STRONGER AA does NOT equal EFFECTIVE AA! (You'll figure that out VERY quickly!)

2 hours ago, Crucis said:

It's worth noting that some ships have concealment (by air) ranges that are less than their max AA range, while some are equal, and others have AA ranges that are less than their concealment ranges.  The first of these situations is the one that's worth knowing, because if you're in a DD with AA that's greater than your concealment (by air) range, you definitely want to be turning off your AA so that you don't get spotted by your AA firing, if you're all by your lonesome.

Because the AA is completely useless for anything other than to let the CV player know where you are so he can kill you.

2 hours ago, Crucis said:

OTOH, if you're in a BB, you don't give a flip about this because you're going to be detected by planes far beyond your max AA range, so you'll probably just leave your AA on all the time.  As for cruisers, it depends on the specific ship.

Their AA is just as ineffective but you'll survive longer because they have more HP.

2 hours ago, Crucis said:

I thought that I'd mention these two things to you because they're a little more subtle than the other stuff that you'd learn pretty quickly.

Like if the CV wants you dead you're dead.

2 hours ago, Crucis said:

But these two things are definitely worth learning and understanding.

Not really but, ya know, whatever.

4 hours ago, Slayer_Jesse said:

I'm a bit lost on the state of AA now

Read the above, it won't help but it will educate.

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Bear in mind most every player knows how to turn to disrupt your TB and DB, so learn to anticipate.

I also advise ignoring the vocal anti-CV minority begging you not be the sniper upsetting their matches--their chief complaint, far as their threads go, is simply that they dislike being poked by someone they can't shoot back. They also blast anti-CV strategies as completely useless without actually playing CV to find out their weak spots, so their opinions are--to be charitable--textbook examples of bias and willful ignorance.

T4 works for practice, from what I've heard. T6 is where AA becomes a genuine threat. T8 brings out bigger guns (on US line) and T10 is where it comes together.

Insofar as AA mitigation, let that question rest until comfortable with the plane types. T4 is ideal for practice.

Finally, be wary of getting detected in T8/10 CVs--most everyone considers shooting CVs triple their annual pay.

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3 hours ago, Reymu said:

Bear in mind most every player knows how to turn to disrupt your TB and DB, so learn to anticipate.

 

just dodge.jpg

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8 hours ago, Slayer_Jesse said:

1: in general,  how does defensive fire work now?

2: are main caliber flak boats (worc, mino) worth buffing their main caliber aa?

3: is taking defensive fire on dd's that Get it worthwhile, or is it more to survive drops?

4: for bbs, are you better off aa building,  or just trying to buff survival?

1. It doesn't really. AA was broken into dps (which is constant) and flak (which can be dodged). DFAA gives an inconsequential buff to dps and a large buff to flak. The flak buff is irrelevant against good CVs which don't get hit by flak, and against bad CVs it's only situationally relevant (if they eat enough flak to die with the DFAA buff, and wouldn't have eaten enough flak to die without the buff).

2. No.

3. No, DFAA is the worst consumable in the game. It's only worth it if you have no other option for the slot.

4. Survival, not only is it better against ships it's better than AA build against CVs.

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5 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

 

As for going in, I suggest honing the drop skills in co-op.

At least you get reasonable income with that practice.

 

 

Games don't last long enough in Co-op, because anymore a huge chunk of the games played end in about four minutes with a couple of enemies still left alive.

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On 1/30/2020 at 4:53 PM, Reymu said:

anti-CV minority

Source?  Even most CV players will admit they aren't well liked, especially in certain tiers.

On 1/30/2020 at 4:53 PM, Reymu said:

they dislike being poked by someone they can't shoot back

This with the other statement combined is pretty funny.  Weird how people dislike ships with no counterplay.

On 1/30/2020 at 4:53 PM, Reymu said:

anti-CV strategies

Super sekret cv survival strategies that apparently NO ONE complaining about them has EVER tried!

1. JUST DODGE!!! - this is entirely dependent on the cv skill, not the player.  A good CV will hit you because their planes are faster than your rudder and they can anticipate where youll be while dodging flak.  A potato CV can be thrown off by this sometimes, but their ability to harass will always vastly exceed your own ability to shut them down despite full AA builds with all but the most heavy AA ships, and depends more on tier than ship type.  Your best hope if being focused (especially by more than 1 cv) is that you flounder around uselessly in the water ignoring the entire surface game to MAYBE avoid half the damage.  If you can manage that, be a low priority target, and/or cost them a lot of planes compared to the damage they're doing to you.... then they might decide to bother someone else for a while until one of those 3 things changes. 

2.  JUST HUDDLE AA!!! - Many ships added to an AA huddle will be effectively useless for adding AA.  When you try to do anything in randoms its about impossible.  Even well coordinated teams or divisions cant all stay 5k apart and eventually ships start dying.  The counter for one ship should never be "Get half the enemy team into a 5k size ball to resist me".  It would be entirely possible to field a half a team of poor aa unable to resist CVs, and this goes double or triple where you're most likely to encounter them (4-6) because of the sheer number of poor AA ships.  Unicum cvs drop in the middle of huddles, especially if they have a reason to  like a low HP ship.

On 1/30/2020 at 4:53 PM, Reymu said:

so their opinions are--to be charitable--textbook examples of bias and willful ignorance

I like the blatant dismissal of everyone who thinks differently.  People who can do this are -- to be charitable -- textbook examples of bias and willful ignorance.

Youre saying you have to try being a [edited] to know what its like being molested.  Nope, I know what being molested feels like and it sucks.  Maybe being a [edited] has drawbacks too, i dont plan trying it.  Also, mitigation of damage is the effective equivalent of finding my happy place, it isnt stopping the attacks like being able to fire my 16" guns is.  Its worse too because this molester you cant get away from and he spots you so all his friends can shoot you too.

 

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On 1/30/2020 at 9:10 PM, Slayer_Jesse said:

1: in general,  how does defensive fire work now?

2: are main caliber flak boats (worc, mino) worth buffing their main caliber aa?

3: is taking defensive fire on dd's that Get it worthwhile, or is it more to survive drops?

4: for bbs, are you better off aa building,  or just trying to buff survival?

5: what carrier skills are considered good? I was never a CV player before, but I'm willing to give them a shot now.

A bit late to the party I suppose, but

1. Defensive Fire provides a 50% boost do DPS and a 400% damage boost to flak. The boost to DPS is either completely or somewhat negligible depending on your base DPS, the flak damage boost basically makes any flak cloud instakill planes however that requires the CV to be dumb enough to fly into them in the first place.

2. There is no direct buff to "main caliber AA". AA is purely divided in DPS and flak, the former ticks down plane health constantly while flak is completely avoidable no matter the concentration or amount. I'm gonna guess you mean flak?
Though the answer is no regardless of what you meant. The differences a full AA DPS builds makes compared to having no AA DPS skills/upgrades at all are marginal. I did a write up on it on the EU forum here:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/129081-why-aa-skills-are-worthless/

(Yes, I'm from EU.)

3. DD AA, like basically all AA, has been murdered as of 0.8.7. The Kidd is the 2nd best DD in terms of AA, however her DPS is roughly equivalent to a T6 ship. The best AA DD is Friesland, a T9 freemium DD being roughly comparable to T7-8 ships in AA DPS. DFAA obviously won't save them from a strike as a result unless the enemy CV is stupid. You're therefore better off focusing on survival rather than actually shooting down planes.

4. Again, AA builds are generally useless. However BBs are now the best AA ships in the game as they have common access to the catapult fighter, which is now the best AA consumable in the game, while cruisers often have to make severe sacrifices to get it. The catapult fighter however does not deny the initial strike, it just prevents any subsequent strikes from happening assuming you timed the activation correctly. Quite a few BBs rival or outdo even so called "AA cruisers" in DPS as well, with the Montana currently possessing the best AA DPS in the game.

Still not worth taking AA builds tho, just focus on survivability which helps against CVs too.

5. Well,

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PASA110&modules=111111&upgrades=122013&commander=PCW001&skills=663560&flags=284&consumables=11

this is currently the core build of any CV (ignore that the Midway is displayed). 4th upgrade slot as well as the distribution of the rest of the captain points is CV specific.

If you have any further questions feel free to ask.

Edited by El2aZeR

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On 1/30/2020 at 3:10 PM, Slayer_Jesse said:

1: in general,  how does defensive fire work now?

2: are main caliber flak boats (worc, mino) worth buffing their main caliber aa?

3: is taking defensive fire on dd's that Get it worthwhile, or is it more to survive drops?

4: for bbs, are you better off aa building,  or just trying to buff survival?

5: what carrier skills are considered good? I was never a CV player before, but I'm willing to give them a shot now.

Answers from someone who has spent way too much time analyzing all of this stuff:

  1. Defensive AA Fire increases the damage done by your sustained AA DPS (the constant damage afflicted to any aircraft squadrons in range) by 50%.  It GREATLY increases the damage done by flak explosions, pretty much nuking anything that flies into them.  The catch is, it's stupidly easy to dodge flak explosions.  So "how does defensive fire work now?"  Except in rare cases where a ship already has very good AA power, it doesn't.
  2. There are no really good AA boats anymore.  Well, there are, but they're never good enough.  It's not worth specializing any ship for AA firepower, ever.
  3. There are a handful of destroyers with good AA firepower, namely ships like Friesland and Kidd.  See above, though
  4. Battleships should buff for survivability.  Some of the high tier American battleships can get pretty good AA, but damage from HE shells and the way AA works now means that you're never going to do enough damage to wipe out squadrons -- they'll still hit you.  So build for survivability instead.
  5. A typical carrier build looks like this:

RX8cC5o.png

There's a bit of flexibility here.  Japanese tech tree carriers won't usually take Demoliition Expert for example, and will drop one of the 1pt skills to get Concealment Expert instead. 

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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Japanese aerial torpedoes are fast enough to not need "Torpedo Acceleration" Captain's skill, in my opinion.  So the points can be spent elsewhere.

US and British CV's do benefit from "T.A.", but it is optional.

Aircraft Armor and Survivability Expert contribute to airplane survival, so they're necessary.

 

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On 1/30/2020 at 3:10 PM, Slayer_Jesse said:

5: what carrier skills are considered good? I was never a CV player before, but I'm willing to give them a shot now.

A 9 point commander is to CV what 10 point commander is to a DD. If you don't have armor and health buffs on your planes, you will struggle by T8. Sure, you can perform without them, but you also need the skill to do so. Ignore 4 point skills till after that and double up on those two 3 pointers.

That said, it depends on the CV after that. US with tims won't need fire chance, as both their bombs and rockets are few. Likewise, IJN have no HE bombs, so there's still less reason to take it. But RN CVs gobble that skill like there's no tomorrow. It's practically required to consistently start fires due to how huge it is for them.

Then there's torp speed. Love it or hate it, I call it useful on slow (US/RN/KM) drops and overkill on fast (IJN) drops.

Everything else is fairly to taste. Some might enjoy concealment builds, like in the IJN tree. Those things have reduced torp detection range and tend to have smaller CV detection ranges, too. While I'd not normally give up my +2 planes come T8, if you are in Kaga or Ryuujou it is wonderful. Some might also enjoy secondary builds (though I only call it some level of viable on Zeppy(and even then as a last resort)). So long as one has the important skills, it's up to you what you want to do extra well.

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8 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

A 9 point commander is to CV what 10 point commander is to a DD. If you don't have armor and health buffs on your planes, you will struggle by T8. Sure, you can perform without them, but you also need the skill to do so. Ignore 4 point skills till after that and double up on those two 3 pointers.

That said, it depends on the CV after that. US with tims won't need fire chance, as both their bombs and rockets are few. Likewise, IJN have no HE bombs, so there's still less reason to take it. But RN CVs gobble that skill like there's no tomorrow. It's practically required to consistently start fires due to how huge it is for them.

Then there's torp speed. Love it or hate it, I call it useful on slow (US/RN/KM) drops and overkill on fast (IJN) drops.

Everything else is fairly to taste. Some might enjoy concealment builds, like in the IJN tree. Those things have reduced torp detection range and tend to have smaller CV detection ranges, too. While I'd not normally give up my +2 planes come T8, if you are in Kaga or Ryuujou it is wonderful. Some might also enjoy secondary builds (though I only call it some level of viable on Zeppy(and even then as a last resort)). So long as one has the important skills, it's up to you what you want to do extra well.

Secondary build in a Graf Zeppelin is entertaining.  :-)

The specifications of other CV's tend to make a secondary build not worth the effort, in my estimation.
Spend the skill points on aircraft & ship survival, instead.

Interesting that the Concealment Expert skill reduced detection of aerial torpedoes.  Or am I reading that wrong?
I know the skill reduces the detection radius of the CV and her Planes.  But, torps, too?

Yeah, Japanese AP bombs are great for citadel hits.  Not good for starting fires or sinking DD's.
British HE bombs are useful on DD's and anything else you want to "carpet bomb".  :-)

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On 1/30/2020 at 11:40 PM, Lordnaarghul said:

Games don't last long enough in Co-op, because anymore a huge chunk of the games played end in about four minutes with a couple of enemies still left alive.

So now you're posting that whine in every thread you can fit it in?  Lovely.  :Smile_child:

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10 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

There are no really good AA boats anymore.  Well, there are, but they're never good enough.  It's not worth specializing any ship for AA firepower, ever.

This right here really annoys me.  Ships like the Minatour, Des Moines, Worcester, etc should benefit from a full AA build. Not saying that they should be immune to CVs but a CV should barely be able to get off one run on them. Of course the downside of that is if ships are grouped together. I think more work needs to be done and this is coming from someone that plays every class including CVs.

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8 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Secondary build in a Graf Zeppelin is entertaining.  :-)

The specifications of other CV's tend to make a secondary build not worth the effort, in my estimation.
Spend the skill points on aircraft & ship survival, instead.

1 Interesting that the Concealment Expert skill reduced detection of aerial torpedoes.  Or am I reading that wrong?
I know the skill reduces the detection radius of the CV and her Planes.  But, torps, too?


Yeah, Japanese AP bombs are great for citadel hits.  Not good for starting fires or sinking DD's.
2 British HE bombs are useful on DD's and anything else you want to "carpet bomb".  :-)

1: No, no. I meant that IJN torp bombers have 7.5km detection base, so buffing them fully gets you to DD ranges of detection.

2: Ehh... Sure, that can be said about Ark, but RN carpet bombs are just so easy to dodge if they know how. It's almost like trying to torp a DD with IJN CV torps. Sure, you can, but a good DD is just gonna dodge.

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On 1/30/2020 at 2:10 PM, Slayer_Jesse said:

My questions are:

1: in general,  how does defensive fire work now?

2: are main caliber flak boats (worc, mino) worth buffing their main caliber aa?

3: is taking defensive fire on dd's that Get it worthwhile, or is it more to survive drops?

4: for bbs, are you better off aa building,  or just trying to buff survival?

5: what carrier skills are considered good? I was never a CV player before, but I'm willing to give them a shot now.

1:  It doesn't.

2:  No.  AA is a joke now.

3:  See #1.

4:  See #1.

5: Plz no.

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11 hours ago, littlejo1983 said:

This right here really annoys me.  Ships like the Minatour, Des Moines, Worcester, etc should benefit from a full AA build. Not saying that they should be immune to CVs but a CV should barely be able to get off one run on them. Of course the downside of that is if ships are grouped together. I think more work needs to be done and this is coming from someone that plays every class including CVs.

CVs put out less planes at a time, thus ships need to shoot down less planes comparitively. If a T10 CV wanted a ship dead pre-rework and sent all planes at once, the planes would get through no matter how much AA that sole ship has. That said, with enough AA, the CV may get strikes off, but none/few of those planes are going to get away. This is because continuous hits each squad, and a squad effectively become 2 squads after an attack.

Overall, I'd say that post-rework is much more balanced, it's just that there are more CVs in the wild so you actually have it happen now rather than a CV worth their salt being as rare as a unicorn.

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