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DemonGod3

CV Balance, what would you do?

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So at the risk of beating dead animals, figured I would create this to ask the question of how people would change CVs currently to balance them out?  Ground rules are you can't remove them from game, give them there own gameplay mode, or go back to RTS.

For me, I think a good place to start would be adjusting plane regen rates to a better point where AA feels like it is doing something.  Also I think DFAA should affect the aiming retical of attacking aircraft, worsening their dispersion when active, so ships that have weak AA but can use it don't feel it's a waste.

I had thought about limiting the range of aircraft to bring CVs into gun range, but doing that would mean they would either need survival buffs or damage buff, because lets be real, when a CV gets spotted, it becomes target number one till it's dead, and with limited armor and maneuverability, it could easily go from lowest to highest risk ship, depending on range reductions.

So, any thoughts?

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That depends, must the CV rework still be played by what WG deems an adequate population afterwards?

Because if yes, well, 0.8.5 has already proven that balance and population are two opposite ends of a spectrum. Asking for both is thus fundamentally impossible.

If no, rolling back to 0.8.5 and adjusting reserves downwards would be a good start.

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As soon as all ships have been spotted the CV's location will be shown in 90 seconds intervals for 5 seconds at a time.

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9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

That depends, must the CV rework still be played by what WG deems an adequate population afterwards?

Because if yes, well, 0.8.5 has already proven that balance and population are two opposite ends of a spectrum. Asking for both is thus fundamentally impossible.

If no, rolling back to 0.8.5 and adjusting reserves downwards would be a good start.

Looking at the patch notes to refresh my memory, thinking 8.6 would be a better point to roll back to, since that was before they overlapped the guns and nerfed the DPS and remove mid range flak.  8.6 is when they put the the fix for more consistent damage for AA.

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7 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

CV's restricted to CO-OP and Scenario modes only.

 

Haters gonna hate...

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comparing rework to RTS is a bad example as both were very broken in the right hands, although RTS cv required intelligence and skill to master.

in my opinion cv just dont work in the combat triangle, they have the ability to do every other ship classes strengths better, i mean just look at real life, cv griefing everyone in game and in real life.

i fear that subs and cv will ultimately lead to the downfall of surface ships.

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For me, 1) switch rockets to incendiary rounds with higher fire chance. This would reduce the alpha damage against DDs but will still allow for the fire DOT damage that they do on BBs. 

2) bring CVs AA inline with other ships to allow for aircraft spotting of CVs and more viable plane attacks. Nothing like watching the CVs having to get into 2ndary range of each other to do actual damage.

3) decrease their stealth, largest ships in the game and have concealment like the small light cruisers, that is just bad. Make ship placement for CVs a requirement like it is for the rest of the ships.

Any 2 of the 3 would be nice.

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3 minutes ago, DemonGod3 said:

Haters gonna hate...

By removing them from clan battles, WG has admitted that CVs are a mistake.  WG simply needs to fix random by implementing the same policy. 

 

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1 minute ago, crazycarey said:

For me, 1) switch rockets to incendiary rounds with higher fire chance. This would reduce the alpha damage against DDs but will still allow for the fire DOT damage that they do on BBs. 

2) bring CVs AA inline with other ships to allow for aircraft spotting of CVs and more viable plane attacks. Nothing like watching the CVs having to get into 2ndary range of each other to do actual damage.

3) decrease their stealth, largest ships in the game and have concealment like the small light cruisers, that is just bad. Make ship placement for CVs a requirement like it is for the rest of the ships.

Any 2 of the 3 would be nice.

Number 1 sounds like a winner. Number 2, the CV AA is not the problem, as it tends to be comparable to BBs at the high end. The problem is distance to strike and the automatic fighter patrol making it less then ideal to attack.  As for three, the only ones with high stealth are the IJN CVs, and that's if they spec for it. Some CV players don't bother with concealment upgrades because there are other skills they need more.

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6 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

By removing them from clan battles, WG has admitted that CVs are a mistake.  WG simply needs to fix random by implementing the same policy. 

 

With how random has been overall, removing CVs would be like putting your finger in a dam that is about to burst hoping it won't break...  It won't fix randoms.

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9 minutes ago, crazycarey said:

For me, 1) switch rockets to incendiary rounds with higher fire chance. This would reduce the alpha damage against DDs but will still allow for the fire DOT damage that they do on BBs. 

2) bring CVs AA inline with other ships to allow for aircraft spotting of CVs and more viable plane attacks. Nothing like watching the CVs having to get into 2ndary range of each other to do actual damage.

3) decrease their stealth, largest ships in the game and have concealment like the small light cruisers, that is just bad. Make ship placement for CVs a requirement like it is for the rest of the ships.

Any 2 of the 3 would be nice.

 

1 minute ago, DemonGod3 said:

Number 1 sounds like a winner. Number 2, the CV AA is not the problem, as it tends to be comparable to BBs at the high end. The problem is distance to strike and the automatic fighter patrol making it less then ideal to attack.  As for three, the only ones with high stealth are the IJN CVs, and that's if they spec for it. Some CV players don't bother with concealment upgrades because there are other skills they need more.

My problem with number 1 is that only the top CV's players are really tearing up DD's while for the rest of us it is a multi squadron job if the DD player is even half awake and makes use of AA and maneuver.

CV's are already the easiest ships to spot.

Ship placement is a requirement now, close enough to properly support the team but far enough that they don't get spotted and come under fire which is a death sentence for a CV.

Now to the complaint about no counter to the CV. You don't counter the CV you counter the planes, you can't kill incoming shells or torpedoes but you can kill planes. AA and for the more nimble ships a well timed maneuver can fubar an attack and even for less maneuverable ships maneuvering can reduce the damage.

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18 minutes ago, DemonGod3 said:

Haters gonna hate...

CV's, as they are today, are a big negative to this game. That is not hate, that is a fact. Balancing CV will improve the game.

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Just now, kgh52 said:

CV's, as they are today, are a big negative to this game. That is not hate, that is a fact. Balancing CV will improve the game.

I wrote that because I was asking for balance solutions, not alienation.  I apologize if I offended.

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25 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

comparing rework to RTS is a bad example as both were very broken in the right hands, although RTS cv required intelligence and skill to master.

in my opinion cv just dont work in the combat triangle, they have the ability to do every other ship classes strengths better, i mean just look at real life, cv griefing everyone in game and in real life.

i fear that subs and cv will ultimately lead to the downfall of surface ships.

 Ultimately I think you might be right it's not that you can't play surface ship but the quality of fun of just dodging the whole game,  game after game where is the fun in that?

It gets old quickly just being the target for someones shooting gallery 

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9 minutes ago, NoLoveForPhatShips said:

 Ultimately I think you might be right it's not that you can't play surface ship but the quality of fun of just dodging the whole game,  game after game where is the fun in that?

It gets old quickly just being the target for someones shooting gallery 

I get that feeling every time I am the target of a high volume HE spammer...

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I don't think there is any solution.  There are just too many fundamental problems of their design. They fundamentally break the core elements of the game that surface ships are balanced around.  They are devoid of any risk/reward balancing, they completely sh*t on surface ship positioning, there is no actual counter play to air attacks, CVs have no counters, just to name a few.  You can't fix a design this broken.

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I would start by normalizing AA damage and plane HP. As in, make it so tier has nothing to do with plane HP or the AA output of ships. This has been suggested by others before in the past. Clearly Wargaming didn't go with it, but I personally still think it's a good idea.

This means that a T8 carrier against a T10 ship wouldn't have its planes vaporized, but it also wouldn't be able to just totally laugh off T6 AA. This makes playing against higher tier carriers less frustrating for surface ships, and makes playing against higher tier surface ships less frustrating for carriers.

"Then why use a higher tier carrier? What makes them different?" you might ask. Damage. Higher tier carriers would have higher damage output than lower tier carriers since ships at higher tiers have more HP. Just like getting shot by something of higher tier hurts more, being slammed by bombs from a carrier that's higher tier hurts more.

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1 hour ago, DemonGod3 said:

So at the risk of beating dead animals, figured I would create this to ask the question of how people would change CVs currently to balance them out?  Ground rules are you can't remove them from game, give them there own gameplay mode, or go back to RTS.

For me, I think a good place to start would be adjusting plane regen rates to a better point where AA feels like it is doing something.  Also I think DFAA should affect the aiming retical of attacking aircraft, worsening their dispersion when active, so ships that have weak AA but can use it don't feel it's a waste.

I had thought about limiting the range of aircraft to bring CVs into gun range, but doing that would mean they would either need survival buffs or damage buff, because lets be real, when a CV gets spotted, it becomes target number one till it's dead, and with limited armor and maneuverability, it could easily go from lowest to highest risk ship, depending on range reductions.

So, any thoughts?

I'll bite. Lets go with your idea but CVs get the ability to Dev strike again and crossdrop. CV drivers currently feel like they are doing nothing because its just chip damage all game. 

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I believe 3 of the bigger issues with CVs in the game currently are: Effectiveness at shutting down enemy DDs, excessive spotting combined with high damage dealing potential and CVs inability to counter one another due to fighters becoming a consumable. 

My quick take on it is:

  • Remove rocket planes (other squadrons can be buffed if need be)
  • Completely overhaul fighters (add a new fighter squadron or alter the others to include them in some way)
  • Either significantly reduce air spotting for larger ships or attacking flights only minimap spot enemy ships

This wouldn't totally balance them obviously, but would be a step in the right direction imo.

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1 minute ago, DemonGod3 said:

I get that feeling every time I am the target of a high volume HE spammer...

 I get that but you choose to play a ship that is vulnerable to that or you choose to come in from my angle that gets you focused on or

a lot of things that you can change with positioning  concealment ect all things you dictate 

 Having a CV that you can't run from you can't hide from you can't position against can't shoot back against well yeah,  It fits right into surface combat play, its not fun, In fact it's a fun limiter 

  My problem is I get tired of talking about this after year,  day after day I used to care about this game but is quickly fading,  I hardly play this game anymore I feel like an old cowboy riding off into the sunset

 

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One relativly easy thing that could be done would be to give the opposing players some idea of the actual combat strength left to the opposing CV. I posted this in another thread, and I'll leave it here as well. One of the most obvious complaints is feeling helpless, and like your AA isn't actually doing anything. If there were a way to have some idea of what you have done vs the CV, I think it would be a good start. My idea would be to have a secondary health bar shown for each plane type, which would give an idea of each types reserves. Once you had sight of the CV itself, you would have a full picture. Given that its aircraft are the real measure of a CVs effectiveness, having some idea of what it had left would help.

CV health.jpg

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Remove rocket planes to start, they are so nonsense and give CVs too many strike options, seriously, they have a tool to deal with every ship type.

Maybe add a delay to their spotting like with radar. 

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6 minutes ago, The_Fire_Department said:

I'll bite. Lets go with your idea but CVs get the ability to Dev strike again and crossdrop. CV drivers currently feel like they are doing nothing because its just chip damage all game. 

 You give me ships that actually have some aa values and can shoot some planes down,  and your cv has a limited amount of airplanes, OK

  O wait we had that with RTS but WG didn't like it

  Personally I would rather have that than what we have now

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1 minute ago, NoLoveForPhatShips said:

 You give me ships that actually have some aa values and can shoot some planes down,  and your cv has a limited amount of airplanes, OK

  O wait we had that with RTS but WG didn't like it

  Personally I would rather have that than what we have now

I personally didn't like RTS, hated its controls.

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