To lemming or not to lemming?

[DEWEY_96_]

Interested to hear thoughts- When you see your team lemming, do you join or do you try to hold a flank?   Especially if it means crossing a map to do so (leaving C cap to go with the lemming to A).  

I just had a match where the team lemming trained to A... C cap was myself in a DM, a GK, and a Gearing.  B cap spawn ships- 2 head to A, 2 head to B... GK on my cap heads to A... leaving just me and a Gearing.  On initial spot we see 2 BB's (T10's) 1 CA (another DM) and at least 1 DD (Shima) (I think there were 2, the other wasn't spotted but based off the number of torps I saw something else was there).  When I saw the GK roll toward B/A I chatted to the Gearing to bail on C and follow the lemming train... based off what I was seeing, we would have gotten steam-rolled (also, there were no force multipliers like good island cover for me or the gearing to play hide and seek in).  Gearing pressed into C, lit by Shima, wiped up by DM with radar.  In the mean time I had someone in B telling us not to leave C and to stay and "slow them down".  Additionally the ships north of B on the enemy team were staying behind an island to avoid our "B" capping ships and were able to cross fire me.  I did turn for a few seconds to try and see if I could at least take down the 1 or 2 DD's but lost 1/2 my HP to a Kremlin OP my bow for a citadel.. and by the time I turned out to kite away I was done for.  

Normally I try to hold a flank... and I try not to do the lemming thing... but this time I was going to join the lemming due to the fear of getting blapped being the only thing on that side of the map (which is pretty much what happened).  Overwhelming force, no support, cross fire and no land features to help... WHY I let that Hagu in "B" goad me into staying at "C" was a total mistake on my part.   Turned my game into a bottom of the heap, crap game... yeah, letting someone else goad me was my mistake, I know... shoulda played the game that was dealt to me rather than trying to play against a rigged hand.  

Anyways... I wondered what you guys thought about how you handle lemming trains in your games?  Do you roll with them hoping they sweep that side of the map quick, or do you resist the urge and fight a flank even if it means losing that flank?

[BrushWolf]

This is the classic catch 22, either choice is the wrong one.

[Lert]

Depends on what the lemming train does at the first sign of red ships. Do they pain train forward and squish all before them or do they all stop and cower behind a rock.

[Navalpride33]

3 minutes ago, DEWEY_96_ said:

Interested to hear thoughts- When you see your team lemming, do you join or do you try to hold a flank?

My thoughts ???? Usually its negative like "aww ""foot-long""!!  Here we go again, this is going to be a rough ride."

The way I handle the situation after I vented out my frustrations is, just contribute and follow the herd... If I am in a DD try to create spotting chances for the fleet to hit something...

Mostly, like in other matches if this is a high tier match.... Try to maintain the BB adv against the red team... Now the conga line to a cap is a failed tactic, HOWEVER... If you maintain the BB adv. You may get a win using the least favored tactic..

No use in complaining during the match, the conga line has started and its not stopping... So do what you can and see what happens...

 

[Crucis]

To lemming or not to lemming?

Is it nobler in the mind to follow the hoards of worthless potatoes

Or to take up arms and cover your team's back side against overwhelming odds?

[DEWEY_96_]

14 minutes ago, Lert said:

Depends on what the lemming train does at the first sign of red ships. Do they pain train forward and squish all before them or do they all stop and cower behind a rock.

NO pain train... we took 5 minutes to secure "A" cap and then about 3 of them chased 2 ships north of the cap and the rest sat in A waiting for the "C" side red push to join up with the "B" ships and pick em off one by one.  

12 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

My thoughts ???? Usually its negative like "aww ""foot-long""!!  Here we go again, this is going to be a rough ride."

The way I handle the situation after I vented out my frustrations is, just contribute and follow the herd... If I am in a DD try to create spotting chances for the fleet to hit something...

Mostly, like in other matches if this is a high tier match.... Try to maintain the BB adv against the red team... Now the conga line to a cap is a failed tactic, HOWEVER... If you maintain the BB adv. You may get a win using the least favored tactic..

No use in complaining during the match, the conga line has started and its not stopping... So do what you can and see what happens...

 

High tier... low threshold of ability...

 

[Lert]

3 minutes ago, DEWEY_96_ said:

NO pain train

Then go wherever you can farm the most credits and XP.

[Kebobs22]

Whether my team lemmings or not I typically try to hold on our weaker flank especially solo. I find my ability to deter the enemy push and stay alive whiel buying time for the team to meander its way through has more impact than going with the blob of ships. Just yesterday I spent a whole game in Colbert entirely alone in the NE part of Greece as 6 of 11 surface ships pushed towards me. Eventually my team took care of the other 5 and made their way over to clean up those who I had been kiting for ten minutes. Not sure how I lived, but doing that instead of joining the lemming likely was a large factor in our success.

[Torque64]

Lemming with competent players = win... Lemming with lacking clown players = lose.

[Anonymous50]

Honestly?  

 

Usually don't notice the lemming train when it's behind me.  To busy looking for allies & targets.    Have never had the experience of the lemming train getting in front of me.

 

When its on the other side of the map.....make a point of saying how lemming trains don't work and then go into survival mode protecting the flank.

[Anonymous50]

3 minutes ago, Torque64 said:

Lemming with competent players...

That there is an oxymoron.

[eviltane]

Unless I find myself at the head of the Lemming train I will try to cover / kite and delay on the weak flank 99 times out of 100. 
 

Anyone who just joins a lemming train from the back engages in major potato behavior and should be shamed.  
 

For the record I despise people who sail from A to C or vide versa because their ships “isn’t optimal “ on the flank they were already on.  That is unless you got purple stats, can’t question someone that clearly knows what their doing.

[Guest]

My 2 cents:

2 factors in making decision

1. Wherever lemming train is (or will be) making progress. If yes - you are not needed there, but might help to delay other flank, if no - you might be able to help. You can predict "making progress" by "reading" (understanding) lemmings' stats/composition

2. Depending of specific ship you use. Generally DD and low-concealment/radar cruisers are good for delaying actions wherever BB and in general ships, depending on others are not (smoke farmers)

That said those 2 factors could contradict each other (you are in Moskva for example which is not good for delaying action but your team going to be fine on the train side), I would pick 2nd factor as more important.

 

And there's type of battle to be considered as well (all 3 types are applicable for 2 factors, but domination is easiest to make decision)

[Torque64]

1 minute ago, Anonymous50 said:

That there is an oxymoron.

You would think so and i did as well for a while... but i've seen it too many times our CV and/or DD's go in take out theirs really fast and just the massive concentration of fire power will wipe out their remaining ships rather quick... and i've also have seen it many times the other way... it all depends on the team's base skill level.

[Vaffu]

1 hour ago, DEWEY_96_ said:

Interested to hear thoughts- When you see your team lemming, do you join or do you try to hold a flank?   Especially if it means crossing a map to do so (leaving C cap to go with the lemming to A).  

I just had a match where the team lemming trained to A... C cap was myself in a DM, a GK, and a Gearing.  B cap spawn ships- 2 head to A, 2 head to B... GK on my cap heads to A... leaving just me and a Gearing.  On initial spot we see 2 BB's (T10's) 1 CA (another DM) and at least 1 DD (Shima) (I think there were 2, the other wasn't spotted but based off the number of torps I saw something else was there).  When I saw the GK roll toward B/A I chatted to the Gearing to bail on C and follow the lemming train... based off what I was seeing, we would have gotten steam-rolled (also, there were no force multipliers like good island cover for me or the gearing to play hide and seek in).  Gearing pressed into C, lit by Shima, wiped up by DM with radar.  In the mean time I had someone in B telling us not to leave C and to stay and "slow them down".  Additionally the ships north of B on the enemy team were staying behind an island to avoid our "B" capping ships and were able to cross fire me.  I did turn for a few seconds to try and see if I could at least take down the 1 or 2 DD's but lost 1/2 my HP to a Kremlin OP my bow for a citadel.. and by the time I turned out to kite away I was done for.  

Normally I try to hold a flank... and I try not to do the lemming thing... but this time I was going to join the lemming due to the fear of getting blapped being the only thing on that side of the map (which is pretty much what happened).  Overwhelming force, no support, cross fire and no land features to help... WHY I let that Hagu in "B" goad me into staying at "C" was a total mistake on my part.   Turned my game into a bottom of the heap, crap game... yeah, letting someone else goad me was my mistake, I know... shoulda played the game that was dealt to me rather than trying to play against a rigged hand.  

Anyways... I wondered what you guys thought about how you handle lemming trains in your games?  Do you roll with them hoping they sweep that side of the map quick, or do you resist the urge and fight a flank even if it means losing that flank?

I always seem to find myself placed on the weaker flank at the start of the matches. I never follow the lemming train I always try to hold the weaker flank simply because following the herd is a sure loss. We will get flanked if no one at least tries to slow down the enemy on the opposite side of the lemming train. With me at the very least slowing down the flank there is a very slim chance the lemming train might be successful although it not successful the majority of the time.

I tend to view these situations like that thing my mother used to say when I was a child and did something stupid with my friends.

Would you jump off a bridge because your friends did it?

[UltimateNewbie]

11 minutes ago, Anonymous50 said:

That there is an oxymoron.

You obviously don’t remember the doom snail! 

[Anonymous50]

7 minutes ago, Torque64 said:

You would think so and i did as well for a while... but i've seen it too many times our CV and/or DD's go in take out theirs really fast and just the massive concentration of fire power will wipe out their remaining ships rather quick... and i've also have seen it many times the other way... it all depends on the team's base skill level.

Hmm...my experience is for every 1 lemming that goes good, 9 go bad. 

Most people in this game have no idea how to push as a team - or focus fire.

 

Most lemmings end up with a blob behind rocks.

[KosmicRavioli]

43 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

Whether my team lemmings or not I typically try to hold on our weaker flank especially solo. I find my ability to deter the enemy push and stay alive whiel buying time for the team to meander its way through has more impact than going with the blob of ships. Just yesterday I spent a whole game in Colbert entirely alone in the NE part of Greece as 6 of 11 surface ships pushed towards me. Eventually my team took care of the other 5 and made their way over to clean up those who I had been kiting for ten minutes. Not sure how I lived, but doing that instead of joining the lemming likely was a large factor in our success.

^^^

This.

I had a game yesterday where I've seen the worst type of lemming.

This map, 6 people huddled behind the island circled in red. They sat there for nearly 10 mins.

I was at the edge of the cap spotting an Atlanta and a Friesland (circled in green) and none of them could get a shot in for 4 mins.

After some amount of prodding them in chat and after the west flank was completely gone did they start unmasking themselves.

Only to yolo-rush in against a wall of guns one-by-one.

[Vangm94]

If you are gonna lemmings, you all must push push push push push. There is no retreat because all a stalled lemmings is gonna do is get surrounded while the enemy is capping. If the enemy is gonna take the cap behind you, let them and push to their next cap and go around and around and around as much as you need to. Caps can always be taken back. If you are gonna lemmings mid-point Two Brothers, wait 5 minutes for the enemy to (hopefully) be away from their cap before you push and when you push you only push. If you get attacked, take the hit no matter what it is because a stalled lemmings push from mid-point is just a waste of time.

 

Or 4 BBs, 2 CAs, 1 CL, and 1 DD can just get held up by 1 enemy DD...

[zubalkabir]

It's a dilemma.  I have problems with this myself.  My instinct is to go to whichever side needs the most help, but that's often the wrong choice.  This is especially true when I play BBs.  I play DDs a lot more often, so I'm programmed to be more aggressive, figuring I can pop smoke and run if things turn bad.  But in a BB, you have to be extra super careful to watch what your team mates are doing.  If you are one of five ships heading toward a cap and the DD spotting for you suddenly gets blapped, if you aren't careful you'll find yourself the only ship heading toward that cap, and unable to turn around quickly enough to catch up with the "Sir Robin bravely ran away" crowd.

[Anonymous50]

 

 

 

1

3 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

If you are one of five ships heading toward a cap and the DD spotting for you suddenly gets blapped, if you aren't careful you'll find yourself the only ship heading toward that cap, and unable to turn around quickly enough to catch up with the "Sir Robin bravely ran away" crowd.

The Sir Robin crowd don't last that long anyways...

[Bill_Halsey]

2 hours ago, DEWEY_96_ said:

Interested to hear thoughts- When you see your team lemming, do you join or do you try to hold a flank?   Especially if it means crossing a map to do so (leaving C cap to go with the lemming to A).  

 

2 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

This is the classic catch 22, either choice is the wrong one.

You have to divine the reason why the lemming train occurs and it's simple. 2 reasons:

1. I wanna be safe!

2. I wanna pew pew!

They go from A to C lengthening the time they don't get shot at and pot shot at ships in range.  And when they get to C and find out it's red, what do they do? Stall and hide behind islands! Why? Because they do not want to be shot at. The bad tm ( the lemming tm is the slightly worse one) rolls up the weak flank and catches the ships in a crossfire.

I've held up the weak flank far too many times by my lonesome far too many times for my taste. Unfortunately, someone has to do it.

[DEWEY_96_]

1 hour ago, zubalkabir said:

It's a dilemma.  I have problems with this myself.  My instinct is to go to whichever side needs the most help, but that's often the wrong choice.  This is especially true when I play BBs.  I play DDs a lot more often, so I'm programmed to be more aggressive, figuring I can pop smoke and run if things turn bad.  But in a BB, you have to be extra super careful to watch what your team mates are doing.  If you are one of five ships heading toward a cap and the DD spotting for you suddenly gets blapped, if you aren't careful you'll find yourself the only ship heading toward that cap, and unable to turn around quickly enough to catch up with the "Sir Robin bravely ran away" crowd.

This is pretty much where I was...  Had the Gearing survived I probably would have made it longer than I did...  in the end, I made the total mistake of #1- first leaving the cap as I became the lone ship there and #2 - Turning around and headed back toward the cap after the enemy had not only capped it but closed to range that kiting wasn't helping.  I'll admit, I got caught indecisive in this instance... I probably should have headed into B where there was some support and I could have still covered C...  It should be noted the red team did exactly what it needed to... figured out I was alone and all of the ships on that flank pushed on me... rather than just hanging out around the cap (as my team did on the other side of the map...

I appreciate the input above... I supposed I need to work on my ability to hold a flank on my own... I just saw what was coming and added it up in my head- overwhelming firepower coming, no support, no islands to duck into and move around, and in a situation of cross fire from ships north of B cap that could hit me without return fire as they didn't pull out far enough to for the B cap people to hit them.  Had I just started at max range, kited, and HE spammed to try and whittle stuff down I'd been better off... instead I got indecisive, got too close, and then couldn't effectively kite away or go dark/disengage.   Their Shima driver was smart and he just tailed me to keep me lit... never fired but didn't matter that I tried to go dark, he was too close... managed to stay just inside my detection range but outside my radar.  

[Kaeldian]

My default setting is the same as what I did in WoT - follow the main force. There's no point dying pointlessly outnumbered because you can't guarantee that the enemy isn't going to roll you the moment they realize they have the numerical advantage.

It's been my experience that the moment you get blood in the water by getting targets low or outright dead, the lemming train will sometimes convert into greedy scavengers and start pushing - but to do so you need wolves hidden among the lemmings to draw that blood and get things started.

 

[CrazyHorse_Denver]

If I get spawned way out on a flank I'm not going to go chasing after a lemming train headed in the other direction. I'll do my duty and defend the flank I'm on. It isn't as suicidal as it may seem because as often as not it'll be the red lemming train headed your way that will scatter or bunch up behind an island in the face of stiff resistance.