Yashima the new HE monster?

[Chain_shot]

Looking at the stats presented so far and keeping in mind this ship will over pen like crazy, does this mean its going to make a distance HE monster. It's definitely not a brawler given its intentional flaws in the citadel.  The guns have good distance. It makes me think its going to be doing a lot of long distance sniping since its't not tuned for mid range. .

 

So with thew overpen problems it's looking like HE is going to be the way to go. I really would like to see 20 HE shells hitting a smolensk to see what they do.

This could be the new HE troll ship. - move over conqueror.

Am I off base?

[AmgenTTV]

6 minutes ago, Chain_shot said:

 

[XurMP]

3 minutes ago, Chain_shot said:

Looking at the stats presented so far and keeping in mind this ship will over pen like crazy, does this mean its going to make a distance HE monster. It's definitely not a brawler given its intentional flaws in the citadel.  The guns have good distance. It makes me think its going to be doing a lot of long distance sniping since its't not tuned for mid range. .

 

So with thew overpen problems it's looking like HE is going to be the way to go. I really would like to see 20 HE shells hitting a smolensk to see what they do.

This could be the new HE troll ship. - move over conqueror.

Am I off base?

Not really, Yashima has way lower fire chance than Thunderer (67% to 40%), two less guns, relatively similar accuracy, 100 less damage per HE shell AND 9 seconds slower reload

If you want to use HE Yashima you are better off using Thunderer...

 

If anything Yashima is a [edited] Musashi (not Yamato), 33% less shells with a obscenely slow reload that will overmatch every single cruiser and will only be decent against enemy BBs. 

Why do I say that it's more similar to Musashi? Because Musashi with the relatively bad dispersion also tends to overmatch cruisers instead of citadeling so you want to be closer to the enemy than what you need with Yamato laser guns. Also Musashi has more secondaries than Yamato so that's another reason.

 

The ONLY good part stat wise about Yashima is the 20k AP damage and the relatively decent AA/Secondaries but does that offset the complete lack of DPM and total irrelevancy of the 510mm? Not at all, Yashima will need AT LEAST Yamato reload to be effective. Georgia and Thunderer get both improved accuracy and reload together with overmatching another threshold so it makes absolutely no sense that Yashima gets worse dispersion (due to the lack of legendary), insanely slow reload AND not a single advantage in overmatching...

[Czevak]

Nothing can replace my Conq!

[Submarine_M1]

I am certain that it could pen 110 mm of armor with ifhe.....which is not recommended 

[Chain_shot]

Slow reload so I would not be interested in being within range of ships that could pelt me twice to my one shot. It's preferable to stay out of range. If I have to trade shots with a long range sniper then I can always switch back to AP. Otherwise HE trolling should work ok. Base 40% is not that bad and it can boosted a tad. I don't think you would need IFHE.

 

[ryuukei8569]

With its current stats the only thing the Yashima is the Ultimate of is the Ultimate Helper of the reds, and the ultimate deadweight please carry me for the greens battleship.

[TheKrimzonDemon]

Aha, no. RoF is far too low, and number of gun barrels is far too low.

[TheOmegaDuck]

The way I see it, the only way her RoF , limited # of barrels and mid-low fire chance wouldn't tank her HE capacity would be if she could pen armor that Conq/Thunderer can't

Yashima: 85mm, 112mm w/ IFHE
Thunderer: 75mm
Conq: 70mm

Putting IFHE on her seems like a mild waste of 4 points. Does 85mm of pen give you any real advantages that Conq lacks?

[tfcas119]

30 minutes ago, TheOmegaDuck said:

The way I see it, the only way her RoF , limited # of barrels and mid-low fire chance wouldn't tank her HE capacity would be if she could pen armor that Conq/Thunderer can't

Yashima: 85mm, 112mm w/ IFHE
Thunderer: 75mm
Conq: 70mm

Putting IFHE on her seems like a mild waste of 4 points. Does 85mm of pen give you any real advantages that Conq lacks?

no, next closet barrier to pass is 102mm, which HE citadels Neptune and Minotaur, then 114, to HE citadel Edinburgh. Although she has a haragumo on each side, so those 100mms have quarter pen, adding IFHE gives them 32mm of pen, but a secondary Yamato is just asking to be deleted due to her easy to hit citadel.

Also Conqueror and Thunderer get quarter pen as well, so Conq pens 104 with HE and Thunderer pens about 118.

[Umikami]

Like many other gimmick ships, Yashima will be difficult to learn and difficult to master; some few will do well in her, enough that WG will sell many to players who will never be able to get even mediocre performance out of her, and she will become the ultimate harbor queen in many harbors as players feel the regrets of buying a ship that they do not have the skills to play properly. Another, albeit very expensive, gimmick ship.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

Yashima is NOWHERE near the BB HE Fire threat that Thunderer and Conqueror are.

 

Yashima has a small 6 rifle count and an absurdly bad 35 seconds reload.  MBM3 if the math is right, should take that down to 30.8 seconds, so not that special, especially for only 6 rifles max.  The HE Pen should be high for the gun size, should be 85mm needed to beat that HE shell, but she only has a mediocre 40% Fire Chance.

 

Conqueror has the crazy 419mm x12 salvo with reasonable accuracy and decent 26.64 seconds reload with MBM3.  Conqueror still has a good 48% Fire Chance but she slings TWELVE gun salvos.  Conqueror also has the BB HE Pen capability, so she can beat up to 104mm of armor.

 

Thunderer "only" has 457mm x8, but she has fantastic accuracy AND a quick reload of 22.88 seconds with MBM3.  Not only does Thunderer have already high 113mm HE Pen, but she has an absurd 63% Fire Chance each shell.  She has the accuracy and reload to make it a real threat.

[axyarthur]

Honestly, Montana would be better HE spammer with twice as many guns and faster reload.

[TheOmegaDuck]

4 hours ago, tfcas119 said:

no, next closet barrier to pass is 102mm, which HE citadels Neptune and Minotaur, then 114, to HE citadel Edinburgh. Although she has a haragumo on each side, so those 100mms have quarter pen, adding IFHE gives them 32mm of pen, but a secondary Yamato is just asking to be deleted due to her easy to hit citadel.

Also Conqueror and Thunderer get quarter pen as well, so Conq pens 104 with HE and Thunderer pens about 118.

Yeah, that's a good point. I completely forgot about Conq/Thunderer's 1/4 pen. 

 

I think that completely ends the concept of Yashima as an HE spammer. Nothing there that you can't do better elsewhere.

[Chain_shot]

fi

13 minutes ago, TheOmegaDuck said:

Yeah, that's a good point. I completely forgot about Conq/Thunderer's 1/4 pen. 

 

I think that completely ends the concept of Yashima as an HE spammer. Nothing there that you can't do better elsewhere.

Fine

[Submarine_M1]

3 hours ago, TheOmegaDuck said:

Yeah, that's a good point. I completely forgot about Conq/Thunderer's 1/4 pen. 

 

I think that completely ends the concept of Yashima as an HE spammer. Nothing there that you can't do better elsewhere.

if yashima had 1/4 pen on her mains, it would be 165mm of armor it can pen, with ifhe, tho i am sure it will be 1/6 pen instead

[Sammy_Small]

I think some people are missing the point... It is not an HE spammer.

Yashima is a secondary spec-ed Yamato with fewer but larger guns... A bigger meme then Georgia.

Look at the secondary battery and think about it.
7 km base secondary battery range that can be increased to ~9.2km or ~10.5km ( AFT + Flag + depending on slot 3 mod. and amount of glue one is willing to inhale to do it )
It has 5 x 2 100mm guns per side, plus 3 x 3 155mm center line guns. That have 24mm and 25mm of HE pen respectively and IFHE will push both past 32mm threshold.

For it to be even more meme worthy:
It needs a Speed Boost, "Supper Heal" and increased base range of secondary battery from 7km to 8km 

[Tekina_]

She fails as a secondary spec BB though, she has shorter range than real secondary boats and what appear to likely be garbage secondary firing angles that require you to go broadside to get them firing. More over, she wouldn't want to be close with such a terrible main battery. Never mind she almost certainly has the same weak cheek yamato has given it's the same hull. She would need a different citadel shape, a better secondary gun arrangement, better secondary range, better traverse, and a main battery that won't constantly overpen at close range at the minimum to even begin to be a decent BB in that vein. Even then she would still be the worst T10 BB and worse than many T9s. 

[Super_Dreadnought]

16 hours ago, TheOmegaDuck said:

The way I see it, the only way her RoF , limited # of barrels and mid-low fire chance wouldn't tank her HE capacity would be if she could pen armor that Conq/Thunderer can't

Yashima: 85mm, 112mm w/ IFHE
Thunderer: 75mm
Conq: 70mm

Putting IFHE on her seems like a mild waste of 4 points. Does 85mm of pen give you any real advantages that Conq lacks?

Thunderer: 113mm
Conq: 104mm

[XurMP]

6 hours ago, Sammy_Small said:

For it to be even more meme worthy:
It needs a Speed Boost, "Supper Heal" and increased base range of secondary battery from 7km to 8km 

To make it reasonably able to brawl Yashima needs this and a boost to turret traverse

I'm a crazy hooman and tend to brawl with Yamato (secondary build) but it's incredibly risky and if you time the angling even a second late or too soon the a pretty nice dev strike is coming your way. It can be done but holy ship you need to be so incredibly good at brawling and not commit a single mistake or you are dead.

 

27 kts for a brawler is really bad as turning cuts BB speed by a metric ton so the speed boost would be quite decent although not a must. The superheal or at very least fast reloading one would be completely fine as Yamato hull is quite weak so its very easy to punish. 8km base secondaries may be too much as even German BBs have 7.6 base but I don't understand why it cannot have that, 7km seems like a completely arbitrary nerf that makes no sense. 

[Leshrac_the_Great]

Remember when these sagely forums predicted that Georgia would be a garbage bote based on her six rifles?  Funny how WeeGee made that turn out.  Might want to wait and see what all they plan on putting on this new ship first.

[Kizarvexis]

On 1/19/2020 at 2:20 PM, Chain_shot said:

Looking at the stats presented so far and keeping in mind this ship will over pen like crazy, does this mean its going to make a distance HE monster. It's definitely not a brawler given its intentional flaws in the citadel.  The guns have good distance. It makes me think its going to be doing a lot of long distance sniping since its't not tuned for mid range. .

 

So with thew overpen problems it's looking like HE is going to be the way to go. I really would like to see 20 HE shells hitting a smolensk to see what they do.

This could be the new HE troll ship. - move over conqueror.

Am I off base?

 

23 hours ago, TheOmegaDuck said:

The way I see it, the only way her RoF , limited # of barrels and mid-low fire chance wouldn't tank her HE capacity would be if she could pen armor that Conq/Thunderer can't

Yashima: 85mm, 112mm w/ IFHE
Thunderer: 75mm
Conq: 70mm

Putting IFHE on her seems like a mild waste of 4 points. Does 85mm of pen give you any real advantages that Conq lacks?

 

7 hours ago, Super_Dreadnought said:

Thunderer: 113mm
Conq: 104mm

 

Here are the proper pen values. I highly doubt the 510mm IJN guns will get 1/4 pen.

Yashima 510mm / 6 = 85mm, so it's HE can pen 84mm of armor. 85 * 1.3 = 110.5 rounded up to 111mm, so IFHE 510mm pens 110mm or armor.

Conqueror 419mm / 4 = 104.75 rounded to 105mm, so it's HE can pen 104mm of armor. 105 * 1.3 = 136.5 rounded up to 137, so IFHE UK 419mm can pen 136mm of armor.

Thunderer 457mm / 4 = 114.25 rounded down to 114mm, so it's HE can pen 113mm of armor. 114 * 1.3 = 148.2 rounded up to 149mm, so IFHE UK 457mm can pen 148mm of armor.

 

Here are the T10 cruiser armors, which is what you would probably be shooting BB HE at as if you are shooting a BB, you want AP and if you are shooting a DD, you want HE anyways.

Zao armor 25-30mm side plating, 100-152mm citadel belt armor

Yoshino armor 25-30mm side plating, 144-178mm citadel belt armor

Worcester armor 25mm upper plating, 25-127mm citadel belt armor

Des Moines armor 27mm upper plating, 152mm citadel belt armor

Salem armor 27mm upper plating, 152mm citadel belt armor

Puerto Rico armor 30mm upper plating, 216-254mm belt armor, 57mm citadel armor

Moskva armor 50mm upper plating, 155mm citadel armor, 155mm armor belt (water line w/ 40-110mm citadel armor behind it)

Smolensk armor 30mm upper plating, 70mm citadel belt armor

Hindenburg armor 27-30mm side plating,  100-110mm armor belt, 20-60mm citadel armor

Minotaur armor 16mm upper plating, 101mm citadel belt armor

Goliath WIP armor 30mm upper plating, 165-203mm armor belt, 25-38mm citadel armor

Henry IV armor 25-30mm side plating, 45mm citadel armor

Venezia armor 30-40mm armor belt, 165mm citadel armor

 

 

If for some crazy reason the IJN 510mm guns get the 1/4 pen, then they would be as follows: 510mm / 4 = 127.5 rounded up to 128mm and pen 127mm. 128 * 1.3 = 166.4 rounded up to 167mm, so pens 166mm.

 

[lloyd1701]

1 hour ago, Leshrac_the_Great said:

Remember when these sagely forums predicted that Georgia would be a garbage bote based on her six rifles?  Funny how WeeGee made that turn out.  Might want to wait and see what all they plan on putting on this new ship first.

I think most everyone is aware that WG CAN make a good high tier 6 gun bote, the question on everyone's mind is will they do so with the Yash with preliminary stats saying 'No'. As it is she's a Yamato that trades 3 barrels, a lot of reload and a lot of shell speed for a somewhat higher alpha if she hits and pens with AP and MAYBE wicked secondaries if the 100''s are copy pastes of the Harugumo's.

As is though aside from the novelty / broken promise of 510's, there's not much compelling about her since there are no AP thresholds that 460's don't also cross, as other's have said if you want the best T10 BB HE, Conkek/Thunderer are still the spam/alpha HE kings.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

2 hours ago, Leshrac_the_Great said:

Remember when these sagely forums predicted that Georgia would be a garbage bote based on her six rifles?  Funny how WeeGee made that turn out.  Might want to wait and see what all they plan on putting on this new ship first.

That's because Georgia got saved late in its development when WG gave her Graf Spee Dispersion.   Before that, I was laughing my rear off watching Notser test Georgia with her pre-buff accuracy.

 

Even Thunderer got saved late in its development.  She was testing alongside Ohio.  For most of the testing phase, Ohio was widely described as OP and Thunderer was trash, just like how Conqueror-457 was trash.  But very late in testing, WG saved Thunderer.  Thunderer got Ohio's OPAF gunnery and Ohio got the very meh Thunderer / Conqueror-457 gunnery.

[KiyoSenkan]

If this ship becomes a high caliber HE slinger, she'll be the most lethal thing to light cruisers in her tier range, but mostly harmless against battleships and most heavy cruisers.

But battleships will have enough armor that her AP can work, though at that point you're just fighting a 6-gun Yamato due to her complete lack of overmatch advantage compared to Yamato.