Why I say sticking together defeats CV's.

[otakuben]

So I want to get serious about fighting CV's for a second and why one of the more legitimate tactics is staying near each other. I want to express why this works with an example.

I went out in my Arkansas Beta ship just a few minutes ago. For those who don't know anything about this ship, the Arkansas beta has no AA. When I say no AA I don't mean a little or useless AA, I literally mean it has absolutely no AA. I have often feared going out in this ship because it is tier 4 and tier 4 is when you start seeing CV's and at that tier 2-3 CV's per game are a normal thing.

I started the match and lo and behold there are 2 CV's on each team. So I asked in chat if anyone would be willing to stay near me since I have no AA and would be a prime target for CV's. One ship offered but he was on the other side of the team and would be a distance for me to even get to. However there was a tier 4 cruiser with Def AA on my side who I said I would stick near. We trodded off to our side of the map and ran into half the team with it being just me, him, and a DD who died shortly after starting.

Sure enough we started getting attacked by planes. Now I don't think the CV captain knew at first I didn't have AA but he figured it out and quickly turned his attention to me. Luckily the Arkansas Beta is very maneuverable so when he did drop torps I could dodge most of them fairly easy. I was hit once. However what kept the planes mostly at bay was the nearby cruiser using his Def AA and focus fire to make me an unappealing target. It only took a few more fruitless runs of him losing planes to AA and me WASD'ing his torps for him to decide to choose an easier target.

The rest of the game went well. We held our side long enough for the other side to mop up the enemy team and reinforce us and finish off the ships on ours. It wasn't my best game but I scored decent with my cruiser protection scoring higher. In fact I will call him out for providing excellent gameplay, thank you DariusGeorge for making my game much better than it could of been. Throughout the entire game we stayed no more than 7km from each other but still properly affected the game and map.

 

Here's what I'm trying to get at. I'm not saying you won't take damage if you WASD hack and buddy system your AA. What I am saying is you will frustrate the CV player enough that they will look for more opportune targets. It's no different than angling against a BB, or focus firing a CA/CL or DD. It doesn't make it suddenly go away or not work against you, but it does mitigate the effects it has on you.

 

I'm not saying CV's are perfect or the most balanced class in game. I'm just saying that some of the advice given by people who both thoroughly play CV's and play against them is not just hot air. There is merit there.

[Navalpride33]

Um No.

Ark Beta, has no AA... HOWEVER, it has armor (its the toughest BB to citadel), it also negates/minimize DMG from incoming threats better then any other ship in the tier...

You have RU BB level main guns with the extra mod,

• A NY in the same tier cant sink any ship class as fast as the ARK Beta.
• A WY in the same situation can;t sink certain ship classes as fast as the Ark Beta.

It has close to nimble steering close to the German BBs of the tier.. 

Not the mention you're fastest American BB on the board (which helps the dodge air attacks)... Faster then the WY...

The Ark Beta also has the highest HP pool of all the tier 4 BBs in the game...

---

In contrast, DDs in the ARK Beta tier are not so fortunate... Although the Ark Beta dont have AA, it does have MORE armor and MORE HP then a small ship with no AA as well...

Now for a BB, having no AA with no change how the ship's class role is played...  HOWEVER....

A DD, that provides spotting and eyes for the fleet, his role as in the ship is drastically different then in a non-CV match..

In summery, In a CV match, BB are not being suppressed or forced out of their ship role compared to the DD.

IF anything, BBs in a CV match with no AA is a minor inconvenience.  Rather then a total ships role reversal.

 

[otakuben]

2 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Um No.

Ark Beta, has no AA... HOWEVER, it has armor (its the toughest BB to citadel), it also negates/minimize DMG from incoming threats better then any other ship in the tier...

You have RU BB level main guns with the extra mod,

• A NY in the same tier cant sink any ship class as fast as the ARK Beta.
• A WY in the same situation can;t sink certain ship classes as fast as the Ark Beta.

It has close to nimble steering close to the German BBs of the tier.. 

Not the mention you're fastest American BB on the board (which helps the dodge air attacks)... Faster then the WY...

The Ark Beta also has the highest HP pool of all the tier 4 BBs in the game...

---

In contrast, DDs in the ARK Beta tier are not so fortunate... Although the Ark Beta dont have AA, it does have MORE armor and MORE HP then a small ship with no AA as well...

Now for a BB, having no AA with no change how the ship's class role is played...  HOWEVER....

A DD, that provides spotting and eyes for the fleet, his role as in the ship is drastically different then in a non-CV match..

In summery, In a CV match, BB are not being suppressed or forced out of their ship role compared to the DD.

IF anything, BBs in a CV match with no AA is a minor inconvenience.  Rather then a total ships role reversal.

 

O_o Did you even read my post? 

First off how fast you go does not help you dodge air attacks, rudder shift  speed does. Two different monsters altogether.

Also yes BB's are the primary target of CV's after initial spotting as they are the easiest to hit and have the largest affect on the match.

Again I'm not sure why you went on about citadel armor and how it is vs other ships of the tier since that wasn't part of my point at all.

 

Your entire rant was about how good it is against other BB's and a few minor points about it's dodging ability which I already mentioned and ignored my point entirely. 

Also before you consider the Ark B against CV's a minor inconvenience try one yourself.

 

Seriously, did you even read the post?!

[Slimeball91]

A single T4 cruiser won't keep you safe from one CV let alone two (with maybe one exception).  The only cruiser that has DFAA at T4 is the Yubari, a little played premium.  No other cruiser gets DFAA until T6.  You played one game next to what was most likely the only low tier ship with any meaningful AA and against a very low skill CV player so you think everything is balanced.  I really don't think you'll find many people agreeing with you this.  I'm sorry, this reeks of a CV player trying to push a narrative of everything is fine.

[otakuben]

3 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

A single T4 cruiser won't keep you safe from one CV let alone two (with maybe one exception).  The only cruiser that has DFAA at T4 is the Yubari, a little played premium.  No other cruiser gets DFAA until T6.  You played one game next to what was most likely the only low tier ship with any meaningful AA and against a very low skill CV player so you think everything is balanced.  I really don't think you'll find many people agreeing with you this.  I'm sorry, this reeks of a CV player trying to push a narrative of everything is fine.

You're welcome to think that but CV is far from my most played ship. In fact I've played CV's and DD's almost the same amount with BB's being my primary go to ship. 

[Navalpride33]

20 minutes ago, otakuben said:

rudder shift  speed does.

Nope... DDs have the fastest rudder shift in tier 4... It doesn't stop the CV with good aim... SPeed does, the faster the ship the less time a CV driver with good aim will hit you.

Again, staying together only works for BBs as I stated in my O P, it doesn't change the ships role in a match at all... 

DDs on the other hand, changes the ships role in a CV match in a drastic fashion... That is the point

Yes I played the ARK beta as a event capacity... its OP even with no AA, and staying with a cruiser is a good idea...

Not for a DD.

 

[Slimeball91]

2 minutes ago, otakuben said:

Your welcome to think that but CV is far from my most played ship. In fact I've played CV's and DD's almost the same amount with BB's being my primary go to ship. 

I didn't say you're a CV main, I said a CV player.  But let's not worry about that, how about you address the point I made.  You were playing alongside the only AA ship at T4 against a poor CV player, how does that mean multiple CV matches are balanced against ships that have little or no AA??? 

[otakuben]

1 minute ago, Slimeball91 said:

I didn't say you're a CV main, I said a CV player.  But let's not worry about that, how about you address the point I made.  You were playing alongside the only AA ship at T4 against a poor CV player, how does that mean multiple CV matches are balanced against ships that have little or no AA??? 

I was playing alongside tdd the Italian tier 4 cruiser. I didn't know he didn't have dfaa, he said he did and I assumed he did. So I didn't play alongside the best AA cruiser of the tier. 

Also I never said it was perfectly balanced. In fact I made it a point to say it was susceptible to CV's and that's why I stayed with someone with AA to better protect myself.

[otakuben]

9 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Nope... DDs have the fastest rudder shift in tier 4... It doesn't stop the CV with good aim... SPeed does, the faster the ship the less time a CV driver with good aim will hit you.

Again, staying together only works from BBs as I stated in my O P, it doesn't change the ships role in a match at all... 

DDs on the other hand, changes the ships role in a drastic fashion... That is the point

Yes I played the ARK beta as a event capacity... its OP even with no AA, and staying with a cruiser is a good idea...

Not for a DD.

 

Ok so we are talking about different ships. Playing as a DD tactics change. My question would then become, if a CV essentially becomes the eyes of the team then what other way can a DD benefit the team that's no immediately capping?

[Leslie_Reigart]

staying together doesn't just defeat CVs, it's a good idea at almost all times. the stacked AA does discourage planes, true. but for other ships it's also a problem as the 2 or 3 or however many of you can focus them down if they choose to engage and the only real danger is inadvertent friendly fire or a ram. it's not 100% of course, CV or other ship I just shoot whichever of you is most exposed in a battle of attrition but no matter what it makes you a tough nut to crack

[Rocketpacman]

13 minutes ago, otakuben said:

I was playing alongside tdd the Italian tier 4 cruiser. I didn't know he didn't have dfaa, he said he did and I assumed he did. So I didn't play alongside the best AA cruiser of the tier. 

Also I never said it was perfectly balanced. In fact I made it a point to say it was susceptible to CV's and that's why I stayed with someone with AA to better protect myself.

He didn't and his AA is not that impressive. No one serious has ever claimed that massing more AA against CVs isn't a good idea or just hot air. Of course get more AA if you can. 

Let's assume you went up against a good CV. Do you think a good Hosho is going to be deterred by T4 Italian AA or do you think he's going to shove torpedo after torpedo up your Arkansas until it dies and then do the same to your cruiser escort if he needs to? Neither of you will have any chance to disengage, or use cover, or angle your armor, or shoot back. The CV won't need another ship to spot you even if he's camped on the other side of an island 20km away. All the normal rules that govern interactions between ships in this game and enable counter play are thrown out the window. You'll try to mitigate the unavoidable damage until you die. Why is that an okay situation? That's the issue with carriers. 

[Navalpride33]

3 minutes ago, otakuben said:

other way can a DD benefit the team that's no immediately capping? 

That is determined on a match by match basis.

I view some DDs as a Swiss army knife role... The quick thinker... Has to know the many possibilities to win

But ships that are slow and no AA... Your role is rocket fodder for an annoying CV cpt that knows

• You dont have AA
• You dont have speed to negate his great aim (if it showed that he has one)
• Cruisers in tier 4 dont have AA to even protect themselves let alone others.

To me, the disservice this situation has caused as for as in game experience. As well as teaching the new cpts bad habits of going after "easy" targets instead of HV targets...

I lost track of how many losses were made because of the above noted situation...

Its only going to get worse... Especially at high tiers...

[Leslie_Reigart]

5 minutes ago, otakuben said:

Ok so we are talking about different ships. Playing as a DD tactics change. My question would then become, if a CV essentially becomes the eyes of the team then what other way can a DD benefit the team that's no immediately capping?

simple, the CV has 1 squadron to spot or fight with, that leaves over 2/3 of the map. planes can't cap (although they do defend pretty well). and while cruisers and BBs are easier for planes to hit the planes also do less damage to them. I got all 6 torps from my Midway to hit a Yam, don't think I took off even 1/4 of his HP (and no flood despite the flags either), saw a DD hit another one with some of his torps, Yam was 1 shotted. you can smoke teammates, put out consistent DoT because after the enemy used DCP you can immediately hit him again (I need 40 secondsish to get my next squadron into position to TRY to set a fire/flood). oh, and you can easily sink the enemy CV if you get him alone because our secondaries are garbage AND you can shoot from out of their range. and that still isn't all a DD can do, it's just all that I'm good enough to do

[Slimeball91]

2 minutes ago, otakuben said:

I was playing alongside tdd the Italian tier 4 cruiser. I didn't know he didn't have dfaa, he said he did and I assumed he did. So I didn't play alongside the best AA cruiser of the tier. 

Also I never said it was perfectly balanced. In fact I made it a point to say it was susceptible to CV's and that's why I stayed with someone with AA to better protect myself.

Now that I think about it the T4 Giussano has okay AA/air defense (by T4 standards) because it has the fighter consumable and some AA.  I think it and the Yubari are the only T4 cruisers capable of shooting down planes.  I think there are 2 or maybe 3 BBs capable of downing planes, so a total of 5 ships capable of some amount of self defense at T4.  This is why low tiers CVs are overpopulated, and flat out bad for the game. 

7 minutes ago, Leslie_Reigart said:

<snip>

I think we've flushed out another CV player.

[ITZ_ACE_BABY]

1 hour ago, otakuben said:

So I want to get serious about fighting CV's for a second and why one of the more legitimate tactics is staying near each other. I want to express why this works with an example.

I went out in my Arkansas Beta ship just a few minutes ago. For those who don't know anything about this ship, the Arkansas beta has no AA. When I say no AA I don't mean a little or useless AA, I literally mean it has absolutely no AA. I have often feared going out in this ship because it is tier 4 and tier 4 is when you start seeing CV's and at that tier 2-3 CV's per game are a normal thing.

I started the match and lo and behold there are 2 CV's on each team. So I asked in chat if anyone would be willing to stay near me since I have no AA and would be a prime target for CV's. One ship offered but he was on the other side of the team and would be a distance for me to even get to. However there was a tier 4 cruiser with Def AA on my side who I said I would stick near. We trodded off to our side of the map and ran into half the team with it being just me, him, and a DD who died shortly after starting.

Sure enough we started getting attacked by planes. Now I don't think the CV captain knew at first I didn't have AA but he figured it out and quickly turned his attention to me. Luckily the Arkansas Beta is very maneuverable so when he did drop torps I could dodge most of them fairly easy. I was hit once. However what kept the planes mostly at bay was the nearby cruiser using his Def AA and focus fire to make me an unappealing target. It only took a few more fruitless runs of him losing planes to AA and me WASD'ing his torps for him to decide to choose an easier target.

The rest of the game went well. We held our side long enough for the other side to mop up the enemy team and reinforce us and finish off the ships on ours. It wasn't my best game but I scored decent with my cruiser protection scoring higher. In fact I will call him out for providing excellent gameplay, thank you DariusGeorge for making my game much better than it could of been. Throughout the entire game we stayed no more than 7km from each other but still properly affected the game and map.

 

Here's what I'm trying to get at. I'm not saying you won't take damage if you WASD hack and buddy system your AA. What I am saying is you will frustrate the CV player enough that they will look for more opportune targets. It's no different than angling against a BB, or focus firing a CA/CL or DD. It doesn't make it suddenly go away or not work against you, but it does mitigate the effects it has on you.

 

I'm not saying CV's are perfect or the most balanced class in game. I'm just saying that some of the advice given by people who both thoroughly play CV's and play against them is not just hot air. There is merit there.

the only counterplay to cv is to huddle together and create a blob that just travels around the map together, no expansive intelligent play creating crossfires and flanking the enemy, does this sound like a healthy game? how many other classes make you huddle with your team and lemming together so you dont get picked off by the final boss of which minimal skill is required to dominate every class of ship?

its so inherently broken that only those that are poor at other classes enjoy it because they get free domination over everyone.

[AriochIV]

There are tons of effective countermeasures against carriers... just ask any CV player. But acknowledging that would mean not being able to whine incessantly about it.

[Vekta408]

This will only work in tier 4.

Good luck with that against Enterprise, Saipans and Kagas.

Midways and Haks.... yeah...hope your AA crusier's RNG is good for the entire match. Just stick close... at 5km... because we need more circle jerking in the game.

AA is the most inconsistent, RNG mess its ever been. All you can really do is huddle together and hope your stacked AA scares them off long enough for something to happen in the match. Even with all the AA stacking, "defensive" fire if a CV really really wants to take a dump on you, they're going to take a dump on you... repeatedly.

[Umikami]

1 hour ago, otakuben said:

Also yes BB's are the primary target of CV's

Bull, DDs are the primary targets of CVs.

1 hour ago, otakuben said:

Also before you consider the Ark B against CV's a minor inconvenience try one yourself.

He can't; you can only have Ark Beta if you played in closed beta, which is why it is called Ark BETA! (Can't buy the ship.)

1 hour ago, Slimeball91 said:

No other cruiser gets DFAA until T6.

Doesn't Iwaki Alpha have DFAA? (I'm asking not telling.)

41 minutes ago, Leslie_Reigart said:

the CV has 1 squadron to spot or fight with, that leaves over 2/3 of the map.

2/3 of the map he can cover in his planes in less time than it takes a BB to reload.

43 minutes ago, Leslie_Reigart said:

while cruisers and BBs are easier for planes to hit the planes also do less damage to them

That's because PLANES have to launch and so use less powerful, lighter torps.

44 minutes ago, Leslie_Reigart said:

you can easily sink the enemy CV if you get him alone because our secondaries are garbage AND you can shoot from out of their range.

This is a huge crock of crap; if you're chasing a CV down you're fighting off his planes the entire way.

[ITZ_ACE_BABY]

38 minutes ago, AriochIV said:

There are tons of effective countermeasures against carriers... just ask any CV player. But acknowledging that would mean not being able to whine incessantly about it.

i am super unicum cv player there are no effective counterplay other then to exit queue when you see them appear

 

[AriochIV]

Just now, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

i am super unicum cv player there are no effective counterplay other then to exit queue when you see them appear

 

A good enough player can dominate in any ship class.

[ITZ_ACE_BABY]

1 minute ago, AriochIV said:

A good enough player can dominate in any ship class.

yes but even the average cv player can dominate over a super unicum in a surface ship

[Umikami]

50 minutes ago, AriochIV said:

There are tons of effective countermeasures against carriers... just ask any CV player. But acknowledging that would mean not being able to whine incessantly about it.

Yeah. Right.

In Arizona they still issue permits to hunt Buffalo, Bison if you prefer, those big, hairy critters that were so prominently displayed in the movie "Dances With Wolves". Whenever I hear CV players whining about "ALL THE COUNTERMEASURES YOU HAVE AGAINST CV's" I think about Buffalo hunts, because CV play reminds me of that. Let me tell you what a Buffalo hunt consists of: 

First, you take your permit and show up at the Buffalo Ranch. Yes, RANCH! The Buffalo guide will then allow you to pick out your Buffalo, which is then let out into a large, fenced area where it can wander about and graze; for a while. The Buffalo Hunter is then led to an area where he can lay down prone, sight the animal, and shoot it, after being told where to shoot in order to get a clean, one shot kill. The Buffalo guide also carries a rifle to finish off the Buffalo in case the hunter doesn't kill it with one shot.

Then the hunter is taken back to the RANCH, where he is given a photo of him standing next to his "KILL", the head and hide if he wants them, and even the meat of he so desires.

They actually refer to this as "HUNTING".

CV players are the same type of people. They have their ships penned up in a little fenced off area so they can't get away. They hide at a safe distance so as to never be in any danger. And then they shoot at players who cannot shoot back. And they call this "HUNTING" too. 

I guess there are people in the world who get off on sports where there is no chance of defeat; there are people in the world who actually are seal clubbers. Playing CVs must appeal to people who want to be able to inflict damage on others without risking damage themselves. But if I'm going to go through all the trouble of playing a game and take pride in winning I want the other guy to be able to fight back. They call this "fair" where I come from.

When WG starts to allow CVs into clan battles I will believe they are not OP. When WG makes it so CVs aren't the most difficult ships to sink in the game, with special fire and flooding mechanics designed to protect them, I will believe they are balanced. When I am shooting down planes every time I am attacked, trading damage for damage with AA that actually works, then I will believe CVs are balanced.

But until then, CV play is nothing more than a Buffalo hunt for players who don't want to take any risks.

[SidTheBlade]

Cvs are not OP.

They are just stupid.

[SilverPhatShips]

18 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

i am super unicum cv player there are no effective counterplay other then to exit queue when you see them appear

 

 But you'll get drowned out by 99% of the formbase in here It's sad when people that actually know something like you get laughed at and told go away and that they know nothing

 Getting to the point where i dont even find it humorous to come in this forum anymore

[The_Pig_of_PIGs]

1 hour ago, Navalpride33 said:

Um No.

Ark Beta, has no AA... HOWEVER, it has armor (its the toughest BB to citadel), it also negates/minimize DMG from incoming threats better then any other ship in the tier...

You have RU BB level main guns with the extra mod,

• A NY in the same tier cant sink any ship class as fast as the ARK Beta.
• A WY in the same situation can;t sink certain ship classes as fast as the Ark Beta.

It has close to nimble steering close to the German BBs of the tier.. 

Not the mention you're fastest American BB on the board (which helps the dodge air attacks)... Faster then the WY...

The Ark Beta also has the highest HP pool of all the tier 4 BBs in the game...

---

In contrast, DDs in the ARK Beta tier are not so fortunate... Although the Ark Beta dont have AA, it does have MORE armor and MORE HP then a small ship with no AA as well...

Now for a BB, having no AA with no change how the ship's class role is played...  HOWEVER....

A DD, that provides spotting and eyes for the fleet, his role as in the ship is drastically different then in a non-CV match..

In summery, In a CV match, BB are not being suppressed or forced out of their ship role compared to the DD.

IF anything, BBs in a CV match with no AA is a minor inconvenience.  Rather then a total ships role reversal.

 

The problem is not CV balance, but rocket bombers vs DD balance at the moment. When spotted DDs tend to smoke and wait quietly planes are gone... Trying to dodge being permaspotted under fire is dead. WG has been trying to fix it by increasing concealment, rocket dispersion, etc... But still DD players are frustrated. The game play is much more fun in a non CV battle...