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YouSatInGum

WG, Flint's AA needs to be looked at.

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One of the selling points of Flint is powerful AA, but that is just not true anymore.  I have several examples, but the most recent was a battle with an Indomitable was really telling.  He concentrated on me for a lot of the battle making 11 or 12 rocket or bomb passes at me.  During that time I only shot down a measly 6 planes.  I used sector re-enforcement almost every time to little effect.  Additionally, he was in my AA bubble attacking other ships probably another 7 or 8 times.  I took almost no gun fire damage over the battle, and he nearly killed me.... an AA specialist ship. 

This is not consistent with how the ship is advertised nor is consistent with the performance of these ships in a historical sense either.  San Juan and Juneau nearly deplaned Kido Butai at the battle of Santa Cruz.  I know that the AA issue is a tough balancing act, but considering the currently this ship is not capable of fulfilling its intended role, Flint is now an outlier case.  Flint is not an easy ship to obtain, and players should be able able to expect the ship to do what is advertised.

This is a text book case of when balancing changes should be looked at.

Edited by YouSatInGum
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CVs need to be reworked... With the number one complaint being

  1. AA mechanic
  2. Disproportionate DMG against low AA targets.

CVs create a hostile environment with their presence...

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It's not just the Flint. Any ships with previously great AA is trash now. AA does squat. I've had DBs fly straight through Des Moines DF and priority sector and dumpster me for 20K (that's without a slingshot). Don't even bother building for AA, the only thing that matters now is the relative tiers. You wreck lower tier CVs, and higher tier CVs wreck you, regardless of ship.

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19 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

 

CVs need to be reworked... With the number one complaint being

  1. AA mechanic
  2. Disproportionate DMG against low AA targets.

CVs create a hostile environment with their presence...

Yep, and you could easily blame some of the team play issues in Randoms on the fact there are often CVs. If your a DD and you try to spot for your team, or maybe try to knock out a BB to allow your CAs to safely flank and instead you get blown out of the water by a CV, that does not exactly reward team play for most people. And that is just one instance of CVs causing problems. They circle caps like vultures, they provide so much spotting intel that you can’t keep much of any fleet movements a secret when some ships need to get from one area to the next unseen.

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1
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The issue is that Flint (And to a greater extent, Atlanta) has all it's AA power in it's long range flak, which has been gamified into dodgeable flak bursts and because of her tier she only gets six of them instead of eight (When it should be ten, but w/e). She at least has the upgraded mid-range 40mm Bofors when the Atlanta only has 28mm Chicago Pianos for her mid-range.

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Indomitable is not a standard cv. Her plane are quick and the more resilient of the tier8, making then hard to shot down. But she got a small quantity of them and you shot down almost 15% of her planes with that small 6 planes.

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Indomitable is not a standard cv. Her plane are quick and the more resilient of the tier8, making then hard to shot down. But she got a small quantity of them and you shot down almost 15% of her planes with that small 6 planes.

I think its fair to point out the Indomitable's planes are different than other carriers.  Still, to repeatedly attack an AA specialist and only lose 13% of its planes shows a problem with AA. 

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Flint has good AA power, sufficient to deplane tier 6 CVs who play poorly.

Comparisons against Indomitable are not good for comparisons against other tier 8 CVs because of Indomitables high speed, incredibly tanky, but low numbers of planes. Shooting down 6 of them is ACTUALLY quite good AA performance...

But, as I say often, AA alone can not and will not be a counter to aircraft...no matter how powerful it is.

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45 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

One of the selling points of Flint is powerful AA, but that is just not true anymore.  I have several examples, but the most recent was a battle with an Indomitable was really telling.  He concentrated on me for a lot of the battle making 11 or 12 rocket or bomb passes at me.  During that time I only shot down a measly 6 planes.  I used sector re-enforcement almost every time to little effect.  Additionally, he was in my AA bubble attacking other ships probably another 7 or 8 times.  I took almost no gun fire damage over the battle, and he nearly killed me.... an AA specialist ship. 

This is not consistent with how the ship is advertised nor is consistent with the performance of these ships in a historical sense either.  San Juan and Juneau nearly deplaned Kido Butai at the battle of Santa Cruz.  I know that the AA issue is a tough balancing act, but considering the currently this ship is not capable of fulfilling its intended role, Flint is now an outlier case.  Flint is not an easy ship to obtain, and players should be able able to expect the ship to do what is advertised.

This is a text book case of when balancing changes should be looked at.

What I have put in bold and underlined from all of this is what I’m going to be talking about. The HMS Indomitable gimmick is that the planes are stupid tough and stupid fast at the cost of torpedo bombers and attack runs as well as reserves. The amount of AA that both the Flint and Atlanta have are really good for most T8 CVs but it’s going to be alright against Indomitable unless you have other ships AA to help shoot them down that is meaningful. Otherwise you might shoot down 10-15% planes and if you’re alone you’re going to get a major headache from her. That’s just reality and they’re not going to do anything about her gimmick. The Indomitable is the very definition of selfish CV play which largely makes it underwhelming.

 

34 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yep, and you could easily blame some of the team play issues in Randoms on the fact there are often CVs. If your a DD and you try to spot for your team, or maybe try to knock out a BB to allow your CAs to safely flank and instead you get blown out of the water by a CV, that does not exactly reared team play for most people. And that is just one instance of CVs causing problems. They circle caps like vultures, they provide so much spotting intel that you can’t keep much of any fleet movements a secret when some ships need to get from one are to the next unseen.

A CV circling caps is a CV that is distracted which is what you would want in the first place. The real problem is when the CV does everything to prevent themselves from being distracted. They get real deadly at that point. Also standard CV match rules still apply. 

 

28 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Indomitable is not a standard cv. Her plane are quick and the more resilient of the tier8, making then hard to shot down. she got a small quantity of them

 

 

This right here sums it up. Indomitable while being an AA sponge is just terrible for everything except damage farming. 

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33 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

It's not just the Flint. Any ships with previously great AA is trash now. AA does squat. I've had DBs fly straight through Des Moines DF and priority sector and dumpster me for 20K (that's without a slingshot). Don't even bother building for AA, the only thing that matters now is the relative tiers. You wreck lower tier CVs, and higher tier CVs wreck you, regardless of ship.

Quite true, and I noticed on day 1 of the AA rework that Salem's previous no fly zone occupation should be changed to air traffic controller.

I bring up Flint specifically because WG advertises this ship as an AA ship.  At the very least they should update the sales brochure and strike the AA claims, they are no longer true.

 

The argument that Indomitable (and T8 CV's in general for T6 or T7 ships) has extra tough planes sorta rings hollow.  Flint will see T8 CV's quite often.  I don't see 6 planes as acceptable, that was less than half a plane per pass, and that 6 was over 20 minutes (my survival was saved by the bell).   There should not be such a disparity between AA performance between tiers, and an AA specialist should still be able to shoot down planes one tier up from it.

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19 minutes ago, LiaoXanLan said:

 

 

This right here sums it up. Indomitable while being an AA sponge is just terrible for everything except damage farming. 

He was by far the #1 on his team.... and despite his team being behind most of the battle, he very nearly turned it around.  In this case, it was much more than farming.  The scary thing is while his performance was pretty good, he had opportunities to carry the thing all by himself with a slightly above average skill.

Indomitable's gimmick might be tough planes, but Flint's gimmick is AA and smoke (the smoke saved me).  It gives up 25% of its firepower for that gimmick.  Except it's gimmick is broken.  Long range flak doesn't work... to work it requires your opponents to play very stupidly.  For Instance, it's like if they changed the Italian SAP gimmick to work only if ships are nearly broadside or else it ricochets.... your opponents have to cooperate in a stupid way.  That is not acceptable.

Edited by YouSatInGum

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22 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

The argument that Indomitable (and T8 CV's in general for T6 or T7 ships) has extra tough planes sorta rings hollow.

You are right.  A CV shouldn't be able to repeatedly attack an AA specialist and not be heavily punished, I'd go as far as to say the CV should be completely deplaned.  Instead it only lost 13% of its planes.  So rings hollow is dead on accurate.

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14 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

He was by far the #1 on his team.... and despite his team being behind most of the battle, he very nearly turned it around.  In this case, it was much more than farming.  The scary thing is while his performance was pretty good, he had opportunities to carry the thing all by himself with a slightly above average skill.

Indomitable's gimmick might be tough planes, but Flint's gimmick is AA and smoke (the smoke saved me).  It gives up 25% of its firepower for that gimmick.  Except it's gimmick is broken.  Long range flak doesn't work... to work it requires your opponents to play very stupidly.  For Instance, it's like if they changed the Italian SAP gimmick to work only if ships are nearly broadside or else it ricochets.... your opponents have to cooperate in a stupid way.  That is not acceptable.

I don't have the Flint's AA numbers in front of me, but the developers have designed around AA being an overlapping mechanic.  If you want to fight off CV planes, or make their attacks sufficiently costly to run down their resources or drive them to other targets, you need at least -2- ships in decent proximity.  3 ships is enough to sometimes outright deny an attack from Flak saturation causing AoE damage and getting the planes fried.

-----

In regards to the Indomitable, she is built in a bizarre way for the sake of varied CV gameplay.  She only has 8 bombers (there's an upgrade that can make it a max of 10, but still) and has to regen a new bomber at the rate of 2 minutes per plane should she lose some.  Because of this, there is a way to use the planes where you take off with 4 bombers, drop 2 to slingshot toward your target to "fly over AA on the way in", then rapidly make your drop and bail.  Often the tanky planes are able to withstand the window of AA damage they take during and post drop to survive without losses.  This playstyle makes it so the CV can only make one, single attack every 40ish seconds or so, as opposed to other CVs that can swing around on an isolated target and strike them a second or third time.  So, in this specific case, the AA of your ship matters less because of the AA-avoidance playstyle of that specific CV.

The best way to slow/minimize the Indomitable is to place smaller, thinner AA platforms (DDs/thin Cruisers) ahead of more vulnerable targets so that the bombers have to cross over loaded AA to get to their target, or choose to try to strike the thinner/harder to bomb targets (as bombers have a large reticle and are quite RNG).  It's unlikely this will happen in randoms, sadly.  The Indomitable is handicapped by low penetration on its ordinance which causes it to be more Fire reliant than direct damage.

-----

While I realize that CVs can be very frustrating in the accuracy of their damage, their DPM is limited.  There will never be an AA ship that can negate a CV in the same way there will never be a ship so well armored that it can't be penetrated.  There will never be a consumable to auto-bounces incoming shells.  You can't negate a player's attempt to deal damage to you, only mitigate it and/or make it costly for them to try to make the shot in the first place.

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1 hour ago, AJTP89 said:

It's not just the Flint. Any ships with previously great AA is trash now. AA does squat. I've had DBs fly straight through Des Moines DF and priority sector and dumpster me for 20K (that's without a slingshot). Don't even bother building for AA, the only thing that matters now is the relative tiers. You wreck lower tier CVs, and higher tier CVs wreck you, regardless of ship.

Yup. PEF was released as a powerful AA platform. 2 weeks later, it was dirt in this regard.

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1 hour ago, YouSatInGum said:

One of the selling points of Flint is powerful AA, but that is just not true anymore.  I have several examples, but the most recent was a battle with an Indomitable was really telling.  He concentrated on me for a lot of the battle making 11 or 12 rocket or bomb passes at me.  During that time I only shot down a measly 6 planes.  I used sector re-enforcement almost every time to little effect.  Additionally, he was in my AA bubble attacking other ships probably another 7 or 8 times.  I took almost no gun fire damage over the battle, and he nearly killed me.... an AA specialist ship. 

This is not consistent with how the ship is advertised nor is consistent with the performance of these ships in a historical sense either.  San Juan and Juneau nearly deplaned Kido Butai at the battle of Santa Cruz.  I know that the AA issue is a tough balancing act, but considering the currently this ship is not capable of fulfilling its intended role, Flint is now an outlier case.  Flint is not an easy ship to obtain, and players should be able able to expect the ship to do what is advertised.

This is a text book case of when balancing changes should be looked at.

Did you use your DF or did you have Hydro equipped? That makes a big difference.

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I wouldn't really call Flint or Atlanta AA specialist ships. Like, they have fairly good AA for their tier, but some other T7 ships come fairly close, and they're outmatched by the T8 ships with good AA(Cleveland, Baltimore, Mikhail Kutuzov, Albemarle).

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I will agree that the Atlanta (and I'm assuming the Flint by default) have lost their AA edge.  It used to be that if you saw an Atlanta in a CV you would not only avoid that ship, but most likely that whole flank so you didn't get caught by surprise.  I fly CV's too, and I am no longer afraid of them as much as I had in the past... yeah, with a tier 6 I would be, but not an 8.  

I think the problem comes from WG's belief in overlapping AA being the answer to CV defense.  Pile 2 or 3 ships together, they are a tough nut to crack for a CV unless they are low tier... single one out without overlapping AA help from other ships and regardless of the ship (save maybe a Smol or Mino at T10) CV's will go after singled ships... even AA spec'd ships.  That concept requires a level of team play and coverage that doesn't happen very often... it also takes away the role of a lot of ships, especially DD's that should be able to operate on their own to do their job (spot and torp).  

I always come in on both sides of the issue on this... stacked ships with overlapping AA can be really challenging for CV's to get into... and in games where the red's stack up like that, I'll have mediocre games... however that stacking AA really limits a team on being able to exploit gaps, push DD's into areas, and other stuff... and as I mentioned before, that level of team play is sometimes hard to come by.  

As always, the AA balance still isn't there.  My Texas drives me nuts now... it no longer is the AA troll boat it used to be.  

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2 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

You wreck lower tier CVs, and higher tier CVs wreck you, regardless of ship.

Today I had second battle when T10 CV had a thing going for my Colbert, focusing Colbert above anything else.  Just like the first time, I changed my position to take advantage of friendly cover, and ended up with crapload of plane kills.  Survived both these games to win them.  I had similar game on Worcester when CV focused me above all else, he failed to kill me.

Now I did have few games when enemy CV focused me and I did not make it.  Last of those was in Alaska, he got me there.

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I don't have an Indomitable but I am a CV driver. while Flint has good AA it isn't overwhelming like a Smolensk or Friesland. when I was playing against Flints in my Lexington a solo Flint would take out about half a squadron and I would only get off 1 attack before slingshotting. but Indomitable's planes have better armor and speed and almost twice the HP. I would say you did pretty well actually, but it's clear the Indomitable also knew what he was doing, likely avoiding the worst of your sector reinforcement and the like. sorry, I just don't see the game or even a ship being broken because a good CV captain playing his ship right was able to put up good numbers. sorry to all the whiners but CVs are a thing because CVs were a thing. what are you going to do when subs come in? I've watched enough good players to know the best defense is situational awareness, and believe me, they are watching the minimap to be aware of my planes, and I've spent the credits to replace them to prove it. the Flint is not a floating no fly zone, stick with some company, for a CV stacked AA IS a no fly zone

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2 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

He was by far the #1 on his team.... and despite his team being behind most of the battle, he very nearly turned it around.  In this case, it was much more than farming.  The scary thing is while his performance was pretty good, he had opportunities to carry the thing all by himself with a slightly above average skill.

Indomitable's gimmick might be tough planes, but Flint's gimmick is AA and smoke (the smoke saved me).  It gives up 25% of its firepower for that gimmick.  Except it's gimmick is broken.  Long range flak doesn't work... to work it requires your opponents to play very stupidly.  For Instance, it's like if they changed the Italian SAP gimmick to work only if ships are nearly broadside or else it ricochets.... your opponents have to cooperate in a stupid way.  That is not acceptable.

Flints AA is a terror to tier 6 CVs.

IMO, the main problem is two fold.

#1) WG does not understand how air defence works on a fundamental level. Thus, the AA systems they designed are broken messes.

#2) Players have an expectation that they can counter airplanes with AA alone. This is also a statement of a fundamental ignorance of how air defense works.

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1 hour ago, DEWEY_96_ said:

I will agree that the Atlanta (and I'm assuming the Flint by default) have lost their AA edge.  It used to be that if you saw an Atlanta in a CV you would not only avoid that ship, but most likely that whole flank so you didn't get caught by surprise.  I fly CV's too, and I am no longer afraid of them as much as I had in the past... yeah, with a tier 6 I would be, but not an 8.  

I think the problem comes from WG's belief in overlapping AA being the answer to CV defense.  Pile 2 or 3 ships together, they are a tough nut to crack for a CV unless they are low tier... single one out without overlapping AA help from other ships and regardless of the ship (save maybe a Smol or Mino at T10) CV's will go after singled ships... even AA spec'd ships.  That concept requires a level of team play and coverage that doesn't happen very often... it also takes away the role of a lot of ships, especially DD's that should be able to operate on their own to do their job (spot and torp).  

I always come in on both sides of the issue on this... stacked ships with overlapping AA can be really challenging for CV's to get into... and in games where the red's stack up like that, I'll have mediocre games... however that stacking AA really limits a team on being able to exploit gaps, push DD's into areas, and other stuff... and as I mentioned before, that level of team play is sometimes hard to come by.  

As always, the AA balance still isn't there.  My Texas drives me nuts now... it no longer is the AA troll boat it used to be.  

The only reason you avoided Atlanta in a CV pre 0.8.0 was because it had DFAA and usually ran AFT+AA Mod, giving it 7.2km of DFAA which made your planes not hit anything and dealt 3x damage. Atlanta, and Flint to a lesser extent, never really had the brute AA DPM to actually stop a CV cold. That was the province of ships like T6 Cleveland, or Texas. The new state of affairs is that DFAA is no longer a magic wand to get rid of planes. Atlanta took an AA pounding because she exploited that more, but all cruisers took a similar hit, just not as visibly.

Texas, meanwhile, is still a total AA troll boat, she can basically guarantee killing a whole group of planes on an attack, even uptiered. In the inner zone she kills a typical plane in 2-3 seconds.

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1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Flints AA is a terror to tier 6 CVs.

Correct, but if you see a T8 you get trashed.

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

#1) WG does not understand how air defence works on a fundamental level. Thus, the AA systems they designed are broken messes.

I agree. The issue is that they need to strike a balance a skill element with a distraction from surface gameplay. They've chosen to go completely one way, with player input having almost nothing to do with plane kills. I think they need a way for the player to actively guide AA fire, so as to make it more skill based. Of course they need to make it so a player can still focus somewhat on the surface game. The other issue is that WG uses area of effect because calculating a fraction of the shells that would actually be in the air would just melt the servers. So there are limitations there too.

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

#2) Players have an expectation that they can counter airplanes with AA alone. This is also a statement of a fundamental ignorance of how air defense works.

How else are players supposed to counter planes? Throw potatoes?

 

We had a CV rework. What we need now is an AA rework. I think a lot of the problems with CVs would go away if we had a decent AA system.

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AA has been nerfed to uselessness because shooting down planes only prevents future attacks, not the current one, unless you wipe out the majority of the squadron. No-one specs for AA because it's pointless. "Good job I stopped half the planes on their 3rd attack run and all it cost me was 35% of my health".

Too often I see ships in a group smash up a squadron only for it still to have enough planes left to annihilate a ship.

WG need to change it so the first planes that die in a squadron are the ones trying to attack.

Edited by macktkau2

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10 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

How else are players supposed to counter planes? Throw potatoes?

No you see, the carrier is meant to be able to attack everyone on their own and solo enemy ships to destruction with never ending waves of invincible plane attackers, but us poor bastards are meant to group up with 4 or 5 other ships in a 2.5km diameter to prevent planes bombing the hell out of us. 

Carriers in this game are basically guided missile cruisers fighting against WW2 ships. It's no contest.

Edited by macktkau2

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