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SuperCustodiam

Friesland 40mm/70 1948: The Ultimate AA Gun?

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So I noticed something notable about Friesland's 40mm/70 1948 Bofors guns: the mid range aura is 283.5 DPS. Note that there are only 6x1 of these single guns on the ship.

Compare this to the Baltimore B, which has 12x4 40mm Bofors, which is in total 48 Bofors guns: 325.5 DPS. Those 48 guns do 42 more DPS than x6 of Friesland's Single 40mm guns? I mean, "Hit Probability" does affect the difference in DPS if I remember reading about how new AA works, and Baltimore has 90% to Friesland's 100%. Heck, even Des Moines is at 90% at 416.5 DPS but since Friesland has that 100%, if it had 12x1 of it's guns, wouldn't it mean it would have better AA than a Des Moines?!

Wrapping my head around how this new AA works makes less and less sense the more I look at it. Like at face value, it almost seems that a 40mm/70 1948 is worth like x8 bofors guns instead of ~x2.5 (since it has twice the RoF than a standard bofors plus it was radar guided), when the twin 76.2mm gun, that was noted for being as effective as x2 quad bofors mounts, is marginally more effective than a single quad mount, all because of "Hit Probability".

The biggest thing that I think is the most ridiculous, is that if you mount AAGM2 (+15% DPS), have BFT (+10% DPS) and the AA flag (+5% DPS), you can have a grand total of 368.55 DPS! That's about the same DPS as a Baltimore B with BFT at 358.1!

The Friesland can have as good of AA as a Baltimore. It's kind of sad that a ship like the Baltimore that has 48 40mm AA guns on it is somehow the equivalent of a much smaller ASW Destroyer that has just 6 AA guns on it.

In short, this new AA system is so wonky when it comes to how ship classes are balanced around it the more you look at it.

Edited by SuperCustodiam

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L/60:

  • 120 RPM
  • 881 m/s

L/70:

  • Up to 330 RPM
  • 1021 m/s

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40 minutes ago, SuperCustodiam said:

So I noticed something notable about Friesland's 40mm/70 1948 Bofors guns: the mid range aura is 283.5 DPS. Note that there are only 6x1 of these single guns on the ship.

Compare this to the Baltimore B, which has 12x4 40mm Bofors, which is in total 48 Bofors guns: 325.5 DPS. Those 48 guns do 42 more DPS than x6 of Friesland's Single 40mm guns? I mean, "Hit Probability" does affect the difference in DPS if I remember reading about how new AA works, and Baltimore has 90% to Friesland's 100%. Heck, even Des Moines is at 90% at 416.5 DPS but since Friesland has that 100%, if it had 12x1 of it's guns, wouldn't it mean it would have better AA than a Des Moines?!

Wrapping my head around how this new AA works makes less and less sense the more I look at it. Like at face value, it almost seems that a 40mm/70 1948 is worth like x8 bofors guns instead of ~x2.5 (since it has twice the RoF than a standard bofors plus it was radar guided), when the twin 76.2mm gun, that was noted for being as effective as x2 quad bofors mounts, is marginally more effective than a single quad mount, all because of "Hit Probability".

The biggest thing that I think is the most ridiculous, is that if you mount AAGM2 (+15% DPS), have BFT (+10% DPS) and the AA flag (+5% DPS), you can have a grand total of 368.55 DPS! That's about the same DPS as a Baltimore B with BFT at 358.1!

The Friesland can have as good of AA as a Baltimore. It's kind of sad that a ship like the Baltimore that has 48 40mm AA guns on it is somehow the equivalent of a much smaller ASW Destroyer that has just 6 AA guns on it.

In short, this new AA system is so wonky when it comes to how ship classes are balanced around it the more you look at it.

aa yes, but ship itself have to see in 3-6 months when IHFE nerf takes effect.

lotta ships gonna be nerfed starting with the kleber and henri, and others to follow so they can fit subs in.

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WG has always preferred lower numbers of barrels per mount too. Two singles producing more DPS than a twin is pretty standard, and so on. 

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8 minutes ago, Munificient_Mumfurt said:

aa yes, but ship itself have to see in 3-6 months when IHFE nerf takes effect.

lotta ships gonna be nerfed starting with the kleber and henri, and others to follow so they can fit subs in.

?!! How do nerfing the Henri and or Kleber make subs fit into the game?

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1 minute ago, misanthrope0 said:

?!! How do nerfing the Henri and or Kleber make subs fit into the game?

henri cant stop on a dime now so easier to hit with torps or main guns. still has paper armor though.

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

L/60:

  • 120 RPM
  • 881 m/s

L/70:

  • Up to 330 RPM
  • 1021 m/s

330 RPM?! I tried looking up information about the Netherlands "SP48"... is it the same as the Swedish SAK-40/L70? Or is it the Itilian Breda Fast Forty?

Edited by SuperCustodiam

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1 hour ago, SuperCustodiam said:

330 RPM?! I tried looking up information about the Netherlands "SP48"... is it the same as the Swedish SAK-40/L70? Or is it the Itilian Breda Fast Forty?

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNSweden_4cm-70_m1948.php

Should be this one.

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2 hours ago, SuperCustodiam said:

330 RPM?! I tried looking up information about the Netherlands "SP48"... is it the same as the Swedish SAK-40/L70? Or is it the Itilian Breda Fast Forty?

 

The OTO-Breda 40mm guns, oddly enough, started off as license-built copies of this gun.

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4 hours ago, SuperCustodiam said:

So I noticed something notable about Friesland's 40mm/70 1948 Bofors guns: the mid range aura is 283.5 DPS. Note that there are only 6x1 of these single guns on the ship.

Compare this to the Baltimore B, which has 12x4 40mm Bofors, which is in total 48 Bofors guns: 325.5 DPS. Those 48 guns do 42 more DPS than x6 of Friesland's Single 40mm guns? I mean, "Hit Probability" does affect the difference in DPS if I remember reading about how new AA works, and Baltimore has 90% to Friesland's 100%. Heck, even Des Moines is at 90% at 416.5 DPS but since Friesland has that 100%, if it had 12x1 of it's guns, wouldn't it mean it would have better AA than a Des Moines?!

Wrapping my head around how this new AA works makes less and less sense the more I look at it. Like at face value, it almost seems that a 40mm/70 1948 is worth like x8 bofors guns instead of ~x2.5 (since it has twice the RoF than a standard bofors plus it was radar guided), when the twin 76.2mm gun, that was noted for being as effective as x2 quad bofors mounts, is marginally more effective than a single quad mount, all because of "Hit Probability".

The biggest thing that I think is the most ridiculous, is that if you mount AAGM2 (+15% DPS), have BFT (+10% DPS) and the AA flag (+5% DPS), you can have a grand total of 368.55 DPS! That's about the same DPS as a Baltimore B with BFT at 358.1!

The Friesland can have as good of AA as a Baltimore. It's kind of sad that a ship like the Baltimore that has 48 40mm AA guns on it is somehow the equivalent of a much smaller ASW Destroyer that has just 6 AA guns on it.

In short, this new AA system is so wonky when it comes to how ship classes are balanced around it the more you look at it.

Don't know so much about the details, but Friesland is a no fly zone. In terms of game play, it's interesting to have a few ships that are plane immune. It simply makes some areas on the map are not reachable by planes, so no permaspotting in the area. It might be not very realistic but a Friesland in a CV battle makes it different, where Friesland is, there are no planes.

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The Friesland is already underpowered. It is a Tier 7 Platform with Tier 10 AA.  If you had to face an entire team of Tier X, and you had to pick a DD, essentially all of the Tier 8 DDs are a better competitive option.. not even counting the Tier 9s.

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10 hours ago, Munificient_Mumfurt said:

aa yes, but ship itself have to see in 3-6 months when IHFE nerf takes effect.

lotta ships gonna be nerfed starting with the kleber and henri, and others to follow so they can fit subs in.

I tried Fries with IFHE for a while.  It does help a lot on taking a BB down quickly but at the end of the day Fries needs those cap points so badly in other areas that I took it off and didn't look back.  The AP works surprisingly well when you need to finish stuff off. 

BTW - I wish y'all would all shut up about how good the Fries' AA is...  With WG going around assassinating ships like Henri it's best to keep your head down.  I got enough port queens with Kleber now also joining those ranks.

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6 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

The Friesland is already underpowered. It is a Tier 7 Platform with Tier 10 AA.  If you had to face an entire team of Tier X, and you had to pick a DD, essentially all of the Tier 8 DDs are a better competitive option.. not even counting the Tier 9s.

Sing it brother!  Friesland sucks.  IT NEEDS A BUFF!!

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6 hours ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Don't know so much about the details, but Friesland is a no fly zone. In terms of game play, it's interesting to have a few ships that are plane immune. It simply makes some areas on the map are not reachable by planes, so no permaspotting in the area. It might be not very realistic but a Friesland in a CV battle makes it different, where Friesland is, there are no planes.

One match a PR offered to provide AA protection. I told him not to bother.

11 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

The Friesland is already underpowered. It is a Tier 7 Platform with Tier 10 AA.  If you had to face an entire team of Tier X, and you had to pick a DD, essentially all of the Tier 8 DDs are a better competitive option.. not even counting the Tier 9s.

 

4 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

Sing it brother!  Friesland sucks.  IT NEEDS A BUFF!!

Lol...Friesland game play is slightly different from other DD game. I suggest you look at this video:

 

 

 

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Friesland is great, no idea where people get this idea that it's a "tier VII" ship from.

Using a captain with no IFHE and no DE, it's quite possible to get multiple enemy ships burning and the damage counter looking like someone installed an odometer on a Saturn V.

 

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8 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

The 76mm/70 Mark 6 was technically a better AA gun...

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-70_mk37.php

Only due to proximity fuse otherwise it's pretty garbage. More accurate fire control systems coupled with high velocity and high ROF kept 40mm and other similar caliber weapons relevant in AA roles long after the 3" gun was retired (see SPAA and CIWS developments). In fact the 3" gun saw much more success as a surface engagement weapon.

Edited by ksix

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8 minutes ago, ksix said:

Only due to proximity fuse otherwise it's pretty garbage. More accurate fire control systems coupled with high velocity and high ROF kept 40mm and other similar caliber weapons relevant in AA roles long after the 3" gun was retired (see SPAA and CIWS developments). In fact the 3" gun saw much more success as a surface engagement weapon.

And that's not at least partially confusing the late-war 76mm guns with the pre-war 76mm / 3" guns that were adapted into various anti-tank roles? 

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1 hour ago, Bill_Halsey said:

One match a PR offered to provide AA protection. I told him not to bother.

 

Lol...Friesland game play is slightly different from other DD game. I suggest you look at this video:

 

 

 

Different has no bearing on what was claimed.

The data supports it is underpowered. WG was told it was going to be underpowered when we were shown the finalized attributes, they didn't care. 
Add that to the list of a thousand "I told you so".


Also, just because one person, in a sample size of one, can have a good game in a factually underpowered ship does not remove the fact that said ship is underpowered.

Since CVs are MM limited + there is no guarantee a CV will be in every match + there is no way to FORCE the CV to attack you = you cannot balance an entire ship around its AA characteristics UNLESS a separate ship type is created (e.g. AA barge). 

For Friesland to be viable for its tier as a DD, it either needs to have its tier reduced to 7 or 8, OR it needs to be given MORE utility like repair party and MBRB/Radar  OR it needs to have its offensive capabilities against other ships buffed to match other Tier 9 ships.

 

Edited by Varknyn12
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3 hours ago, Varknyn12 said:

Different has no bearing on what was claimed.

The data supports it is underpowered. WG was told it was going to be underpowered when we were shown the finalized attributes, they didn't care. 
Add that to the list of a thousand "I told you so".


Also, just because one person, in a sample size of one, can have a good game in a factually underpowered ship does not remove the fact that said ship is underpowered.

Since CVs are MM limited + there is no guarantee a CV will be in every match + there is no way to FORCE the CV to attack you = you cannot balance an entire ship around its AA characteristics UNLESS a separate ship type is created (e.g. AA barge). 

For Friesland to be viable for its tier as a DD, it either needs to have its tier reduced to 7 or 8, OR it needs to be given MORE utility like repair party and MBRB/Radar  OR it needs to have its offensive capabilities against other ships buffed to match other Tier 9 ships.

 

The Friesland has a base reload of 1.8 sec... and you want it to have more utility?

You do realize you practically win any gunfight with any same tier DD or below (besides French and IJN 100mm DDs) especially since it has a hydro smoke combo?

Seriously, most tier VIII DDs don't really stand a chance, and tier VII DDs pretty much just have to accept their death if they get caught by a Friesland.

The Friesland is extremely strong versus DD and CVs but very weak to Cruisers and Battleships. It's more or less balanced in it's current state. You should wait for Småland and or Halland if you want something that can also defend itself from cruisers and battleship since they'll have torpedoes.

5 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

 

BTW - I wish y'all would all shut up about how good the Fries' AA is...  With WG going around assassinating ships like Henri it's best to keep your head down.  I got enough port queens with Kleber now also joining those ranks.

I'm just pointing out how ridiculous the AA rework is and how it makes zero sense with some ships. Still, I think it would make more sense if the mid range DPS was toned down by at least a third, it's capability to outshine a Baltimore is still frankly ridiculous if you ask me.

Edited by SuperCustodiam

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55 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

Add that to the list of a thousand "I told you so".


For Friesland to be viable for its tier as a DD, it either needs to have its tier reduced to 7 or 8, OR it needs to be given MORE utility like repair party and MBRB/Radar  OR it needs to have its offensive capabilities against other ships buffed to match other Tier 9 ships.

Yes, no one tells us so with as much frequency as you do.

That being said, I love Friesland, so I'm all up for buffs!

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8 hours ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Don't know so much about the details, but Friesland is a no fly zone. In terms of game play, it's interesting to have a few ships that are plane immune. It simply makes some areas on the map are not reachable by planes, so no permaspotting in the area. It might be not very realistic but a Friesland in a CV battle makes it different, where Friesland is, there are no planes.

Friesland isn't immune to air attack.  Even T8 planes can get through to strike her, that's with a full AA spec, with sector, and DFAA active.  I'm not saying you will find it worth your while to go after a Friesland, I'm just pointing out its not immune.  Just wait until it takes some damage and much of its mid range AA is knocked out and its a push over, just like the other DDs. 

1 hour ago, Varknyn12 said:

The data supports it is underpowered.

I'm not sure I agree.  Friesland has a 52% WR, just over 50k average damage, 1855 average XP, 0.8 frags, 3.79 plane kills, and a surprisingly high average base capture of 33.37.  By all accounts the Friesland is a strong DD, with good utility.

11 minutes ago, SuperCustodiam said:

I'm just pointing out how ridiculous the AA rework is and how it makes zero sense with some ships. Still, I think it would make more sense if the mid range DPS was toned down by at least a third, it's capability to outshine a Baltimore is still frankly ridiculous if you ask me.

The Friesland's 40mms are some of the most modern AA mounts in the game, I would expect them to be strong.  Add to that the Friesland doesn't have any short range AA.  The Baltimore has something like 100 more total DPS than the Friesland.  All of this seems reasonable to me.

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21 minutes ago, RainbowFartingUnicorn said:

Yes, no one tells us so with as much frequency as you do.

If that poster told me the house was on fire, I'd check the thermostat.

 

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