Is the AI too good?

[HellHammer9182]

Ok, so I remember when I first started playing you could go into a co-op battle and win easily, now I haven't played co-op in a very long time, did the AI get a buff or something? I tried to hit an AI ship with torpedo's 6 freaking times at close range, 4 of the launches were less than 4km away and it just dodges them like it's nothing, they dodge torpedo's better than players do, that's complete and under [edited]!

[_Starbuck]

Try unlocking your target just before launching your torpedoes, the bots are a bit slower to react and I’ve found much success doing that, especially in the scenario battles. 

[Burnsy]

You have to face torp them.  Unless I am in a ship with VERY fast torps, I launch at 2km, 3km tops.  You can unlock them and then launch, it helps sometimes.

Also, don't show them your broadside.  They know where your citidel is and they will punish you every time.

They are easier than humans because they are predictable.  You can learn what they are going to do and they will do it consistently.  In other ways, they are more punishing than humans because if you give them the opportunity, they do not miss.

[BrushWolf]

1 minute ago, _Starbuck said:

Try unlocking your target just before launching your torpedoes, the bots are a bit slower to react and I’ve found much success doing that, especially in the scenario battles. 

That doesn't always work and won't if you are the focus of the ship you are firing torps at. It is still easy to win in co-op but it takes a bit more thinking and good play than before.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

The AI is no good at all.

[_Starbuck]

Well, if you’re in co-op and launching torps not in their faces, you’re probably doing it wrong. 

[HellHammer9182]

1 minute ago, _Starbuck said:

Well, if you’re in co-op and launching torps not in their faces, you’re probably doing it wrong. 

3km isn't in there face? cause DD's and CL's do it from way further away all the time.

[Burnsy]

4 minutes ago, HellHammer9182 said:

3km isn't in there face? cause DD's and CL's do it from way further away all the time.

The bots know the second you click the button to launch torps and instantly start taking evasive action.

Humans do not.  Torps work on humans because they don't know you launched from 10km away.  As the bots are controlled by the server, which tells them that you just launched, they know.

The only way that you can torp a bot, is to take away their ability to get out of the way. Get closer. 

[Navalpride33]

16 minutes ago, HellHammer9182 said:

Ok, so I remember when I first started playing you could go into a co-op battle and win easily, now I haven't played co-op in a very long time, did the AI get a buff or something?

Nothing wrong with the AI...

Problem is the OP haven;t played in a very long time... Your skills will regress over time... Its not the AI fault this time...

[pikohan]

The bots are actually very good at shooting and dodging, but they have no strategy so they are still very easy to beat overall. 

[HellHammer9182]

47 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

The bots know the second you click the button to launch torps and instantly start taking evasive action.

Humans do not.  Torps work on humans because they don't know you launched from 10km away.  As the bots are controlled by the server, which tells them that you just launched, they know.

The only way that you can torp a bot, is to take away their ability to get out of the way. Get closer. 

Doesn't that seem unfair and broken too you? shouldn't they only be told once they would normally see them?

[Kapitan_Wuff]

The AI is definitely not too good lol, even cheating the AI is still crap.

[SteelRain_Rifleman]

48 minutes ago, HellHammer9182 said:

Ok, so I remember when I first started playing you could go into a co-op battle and win easily, now I haven't played co-op in a very long time, did the AI get a buff or something? I tried to hit an AI ship with torpedo's 6 freaking times at close range, 4 of the launches were less than 4km away and it just dodges them like it's nothing, they dodge torpedo's better than players do, that's complete and under [edited]!

Was the AI ship equipped with hydro as stock?

In any game a human player sees a DD and it's in torpedo range, what do you do? You hit hydro right?

A bot attacks and evades based on detection.

In my DD, it is best to send torps outside of spot range. Ideally from smoke, but don't just sit in there, move within the smoke, but don't reveal yourself in any way.

The most typical mistake is getting spotted, bot fires up his hydro or his bot DD closes in and spots the torps. The target has enough warning to evade easily.

Never use ur guns in a DD unless you are spotted.

Torpedoes Never give away your location, just the vector of the launch and if you play it smart, you are not there when they look for you.

My best DD tactic in co-op is in my benham.

I sail ahead, launch both racks in to a predicted spot in the cap, pop smoke and lay down a U shaped smoke wall that I use to sail within. Eventually bots fire guns at ships with you not in your smoke.

But so far the bots don't know you are here. They only see a smoke wall your teammates shooting over it and that's it.

I circle inside and reload torps, bots that are spotted in cap are attacked unless a DD is present, then get the DD first with all your torps and open fire just outside of smoke detect, but cease if you will be detected assured.

Once DD is gone either by you or your team. You then get the other ships and still do not use guns because unless the bots don't see a DD, they don't activate hydro. Your torps are your main weapon.

I proceed to be aggressive as you are by now danger close and can send still undetected.

Detection, bots always react to detection. They see  DD, hydro or radar. No DD, it's never turned on until too late.

 

 

 

 

[Burnsy]

6 minutes ago, HellHammer9182 said:

Doesn't that seem unfair and broken too you? shouldn't they only be told once they would normally see them?

No, it is not unfair or broken.  It adds at least "some" semblance of challenge to the coop.

They don't have ship upgrades, they don't use smoke properly in any way and their maneuvers consist of going full throttle at the beginning of the match and never turning. They then begin their march, mindlessly, to their slaughter like so many cattle.

Knowing when you launch torps and having good aim, is the only thing saving them from being simple target practice.

[MichiganEagle]

1 hour ago, Burnsy said:

They know where your citidel is and they will punish you every time.
 

 

Oh man. ALL of this.

[SteelRain_Rifleman]

39 minutes ago, MichiganEagle said:

 

Oh man. ALL of this.

It's not that the shells always hit a citadel, it's more that the bots programming for aiming the guns is" aim for center of target, use HE if far or angled, use AP when target is wide or about to turn wide."

Think about what bots see on their minimap and you understood how they see and react accordingly.

That white line showing the bow heading is also visible to them just like we see it. So if you turn wide to open up, the bots switch to AP.

Aiming for the center is a simple computer program for bots. It just so happens to be the sweet spot for every ship that has a citadel.

And spotting is prioritized based on threat and the nearest Target's health. In the bot's case, they attack the lowest HP ship closest, DDs. CVs are number one priority after a DD. Then they work their way up to the healthiest ship.

In a match last year, I hid my DD behind an island, but this island was just a tall rock that is very skinny. It could only protect the middle part of my ship.

My bow and stern were wide and exposed to a BB. I came to a complete stop. I thought the BB would fire HE at me and I would be toast.

But instead, the BB fired the HE shells directly at the island that protected the middle part of my DD.

So being the keen guy I am, I creeped out just enough to fire torps and went back to the same spot behind that same island rock.

The BB got hit but not before getting his HE off. Again, hit the island dead center.

That is when I learned that bots aim for center of target.

Bots do use B-hulls, upgrades that are most frequently used by players, and consumables other than stock. It is a random thing of which ship upgrades are used.

They do evasive action because they are equipped with Capt skill incoming fire. They use radio location and other skills.

MM not only gets interesting bots, but the various iterations of every ship.

It's just not as frequent as one would think.

 

 

 

[BarronRichthofen]

Seriously OP?

AI too good?

I can Kracken in 5 min vs the AI even using torps in most co-op matches. IMO the AI is the exact oppisite, it's too damn easy. It moves to the objective and fires at the closest target in range. There is no tactics to it's play, it NEVER has a DD smoke up and pound you, or has a spammer ship (Mino, smol, ect) hide in smoke or behind an island and pound you. They just keep charging ahead and shooting the closest target.

Troll Post maybee?  SMDH

[FrodoFraggin]

7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The AI is no good at all.

In most regards. Their strength is they think the same, so when they all decide who the number one threat is, and the opportunity exists for crossfire, they can focus down a human very fast.

10 minutes ago, BarronRichthofen said:

I can Kracken in 5 min vs the AI even using torps in most co-op matches. 

Most matches? You really should check your stats before making those kinds of claims, or hide them at least.  You average 1.19 kills per co op match 

[Kuckoo]

Understanding perspective is important.  Match after co-op match human players (well, most human players anyway) slaughter countless bots with hardly a thought.  But then some lose their minds when bots display their uncanny ability to dodge torps.

Because a K/D of at least 20-1 and a 95% win rate isn't enough, right?

Apparently, some have difficulty grasping the concept that bots have to have some means of making life at least a little difficult for human players.  I, for one, am in favor of making bots tougher than they are now.  At least it'll make co-ops consistently more interesting.  The only time one isn't bored half to death is when the rest of your team somehow nerfed themselves out of the match, and you're left dealing with half the remaining bot team solo.  Shouldn't have to come to that just to make things interesting.  But then again, co-ops was never meant as a main mode of play in the first place, so it is what it is.

[surratus]

WG doesn't want to spend much in the way of programming resources in the Co-op mode.  They provide minimal support because of PvE mains, and because some form of training is required in the game.  More player resources are spent in PvP than PvE, and the spending of resources is needed for WG to make money (in addition to premium time and other sales).  I think this is why you see so many directives and other "features" (such as the research bureau).  Thus the programing on the AI isn't a priority compared to many other computer games. 

The bots in Co-op show little to no tactical coordination, primitive movement and map placement, a poor threat priority target decision tree, and a remarkable desire to ram other bots (not players just other enemy bots).  The only tactical cooperation I could identify is focused fire on low health ships - I've not been able to verify but I expect this focus fire only extends to player ships as opposed to allied bots - anyone know?  Their aiming is always spot on but I don't think RNG or sigma values are tweaked (that would show up in training rooms), they just don't make any errors in target lead or angle.  They know exactly when you fire at them and will take evasive action, but players could do the same thing as we can see the gun flashes. 

One "cheat" I believe is encoded into bot programing is an adjustment to the fog-of-war, probably the same code from the training rooms.  (This "enhanced spotting" could be restricted to an arc or range from the bot.)   They do seem to "know" exactly which way to point even when the player is unspotted, are better at dodging torps, and avoiding running broadside towards "unspotted" players.   They appear to maneuver in response to, but not fire upon, unspotted ships in this enhanced range.  

It's hard to say for sure if the bots are aware of players launching torps as I think this again could go back to increased spotting range.  I've notice a bot will go evasive when torps are launched at them even when I am not locked on to the bot.  Once I tried anticipating the evasive maneuver and so launched torps (while not locked) in a direction intentionally off target in anticipation of the bot turning and they didn't - maybe because they didn't have to.  I've messed with this a few other times and I think the bots just see incoming torps at much greater distance, the program then determines the location and direction of torps in the water and, if necessary or possible, maneuvers to minimize hits.

I do wish WG invested more resources in bot AI programing.  I'd love for bots to be more challenging without the tweaks, even throw more bots or higher tier ships onto the red side.  (I wish they'd make more scenarios.)  But like any other company they'll do only what they have to do to maximize profits and I would guess there is little to no intellectual property left to be had at this level of gaming.  So the only "improvements" we'll continue to see in Co-op are those intended to get players to expend more resources per match (see shorter matches).  Increasing the number of, or improving the bot AI programming, will not accomplish that. 

[BarronRichthofen]

51 minutes ago, FrodoFraggin said:

In most regards. Their strength is they think the same, so when they all decide who the number one threat is, and the opportunity exists for crossfire, they can focus down a human very fast.

Most matches? You really should check your stats before making those kinds of claims, or hide them at least.  You average 1.19 kills per co op match 

Dude I DON"T do co-op for a reason, those 679 co-op battles are from , Getting a Win for an event, Knocking off a snowflake ect for an event. In those cases I grab a kill to hell with the dmg ect, get out and grab the next ship. the few time's i actually made an effort in co-op it ended with good or top numbers in the match because the AI is so weak. So weak I can't stand the "at the shooting range shooting at paper targets"  aspect of it. I care not for stats of any kind and bring up stats just show's you sir are a TROLL.

The AI is weak and pathetic. Real players are far more of a challenge, sometimes even your team mates make it more of a Challenge. We have about the same numbers of battles the difference is 9k of yours are co-op where under 700 of mine are. You have 3,613 Randoms, me, 13,715. There is a good reason I Don't do co-op (terribad XP/Credits rewards, no challenge) to each their own on that. Don't start the stat shaming crapuntil you really take a deeper look at the stats. If the AI  were smarter, and rewards better for co-op I'd do more co-op but as it stands I'll stick with the frustration of the potato's in randoms over the lower rewards and lack of chalenge Co-Op offers.

In Short pretty much EVERY Co-Op match I have is for an event where the goal was far easier to obtain in co-op than randoms. The AI sucked, I got the hell out ASAP, and I Don't regret having so few co-op matches in the least.

[Soshi_Sone]

Bot AI is either:

Or (when terrain gets in the way)

 

[Grey_Paladin]

4 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Or (when terrain gets in the way)

I have witnessed this many a time.  Once I parked my DD at one end of a long, narrow island ( can't remember the map offhand ) and sure enough, two bots bonked into the other end.  I hit the gas and let fly with torps at point-blank range while they were busy extricating themselves.

The bot torpedo-sense seems a bit random.  Sometimes they will dodge point-blank torps, and other times they will simply sail straight into them.

Have a great day!

 

[fourteenfour]

9 hours ago, HellHammer9182 said:

Ok, so I remember when I first started playing you could go into a co-op battle and win easily, now I haven't played co-op in a very long time, did the AI get a buff or something? I tried to hit an AI ship with torpedo's 6 freaking times at close range, 4 of the launches were less than 4km away and it just dodges them like it's nothing, they dodge torpedo's better than players do, that's complete and under [edited]!

one fault they have is they will use consumables too quickly, like smoke as soon as spotted or launch fighter/spotter

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

8 hours ago, HellHammer9182 said:

Doesn't that seem unfair and broken too you? shouldn't they only be told once they would normally see them?

It's to make up for the fact that the AI has no strategic sense at all, knows no caution, and can easily be outplayed on position.