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BDC1980

Yup. I still hate CVs

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I took quite a while off from this game. I hated the old CVs because they were just 0 value added to the game. They were grossly overpowered and impossible to balance.

I wasn't around when they did the remake of them. 

 

They are basically the same. They are impossible to balance. Either they are grossly overpowered or they can't do anything. They add nothing to the game but a way to screw over Destroyers and drop massive amounts of damage against defenseless ships.

Honestly I've rage quit over having to deal with them since I came back.  I know that WG gets a hard on for having things in their games that people hate and I'm mainly just venting but really.. The entire ship class just doesn't do a damn thing for the game.  This isn't the real world.. they are just cancer and pretty much the only people that like them are the ones that like to seal club and have no other skill in the game.  Honestly they have wasted so much time and energy on the ship class and they are IMPOSSIBLE to balance.

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I disagree about them being "impossible to balance".  I think that it is impossible to make everyone happy.  Some people like carriers and some people hate them.   And carriers are not a ship class.  They're a ship type.

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If you recently came back you'll find that you will need to learn how to play with cvs in the match. You cannot just return and expect to play the same exact way when things were so changed with the rework. Here's a video from an excellent dd player on the topic. I hope it helps.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

At least with the old CVs when I got deleted I knew it was because they were a skilled player.

At least with the old CVs if you trolled their attack they generally went away for a while.

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

At least with the old CVs if you trolled their attack they generally went away for a while.

I used to really hate the old RTS CVs, but imo it would have been easier to fix (just removing strafing would have helps so much)them then rework them entirely. Sadly I think I actually miss the old CVs now lol. At least they were not so common. 

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9 hours ago, Crucis said:

I disagree about them being "impossible to balance".  I think that it is impossible to make everyone happy.  Some people like carriers and some people hate them.   And carriers are not a ship class.  They're a ship type.

The reason I say they are impossible to balance is you have to have a pivot point to balance around.

Here's an example:

Let's just make an easy example for this and say that we are at T8. You have ships that vary greatly in their AA. Let's say the worst one is 25 rating and the best is a 75.  Again just trying to make it simple so please don't attack me about it. 

So what do you balance the CV around? The easy answer is "Well just make it so the balance point is against 50 AA" which is the problem because against a ship with a 50 you would be able to predict and setup basically so you can say "Well I think out of one squad we want him to get 2 drops and do X amount of damage". Easy... Against the 25 AA you are going to possibly get all of the drops and do half the ships damage.  Against the 75 AA you MIGHT get 1 drop, if any at all. This is just against isolated ships. Let's not even talk about trying to balance against pairs. Or you could just say "Well we don't expect them to get any drops against 2 ships" which would make them obsolete as that is really easy to counter.  You would also still get drops off on 2 ships with 25 AA.

At top tier they are going to feel just completely overpowered and you can get seal clubbed. At bottom tier you might just laugh at them and ignore them for the most part.  I know this is sometime the feeling with all ships but it is much more pronounced with CVs. 

 

I'll say that before the rework they felt really bad especially at T10 and after the MAJOR rework they don't feel much better.  They are either rage inducing overpowered or LOL PEPEHANDS underpowered.  

 

So you're up slugger.  If you think they can be balanced. Please explain it.

 

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2 hours ago, BDC1980 said:

The reason I say they are impossible to balance is you have to have a pivot point to balance around.

Here's an example:

Let's just make an easy example for this and say that we are at T8. You have ships that vary greatly in their AA. Let's say the worst one is 25 rating and the best is a 75.  Again just trying to make it simple so please don't attack me about it. 

So what do you balance the CV around? The easy answer is "Well just make it so the balance point is against 50 AA" which is the problem because against a ship with a 50 you would be able to predict and setup basically so you can say "Well I think out of one squad we want him to get 2 drops and do X amount of damage". Easy... Against the 25 AA you are going to possibly get all of the drops and do half the ships damage.  Against the 75 AA you MIGHT get 1 drop, if any at all. This is just against isolated ships. Let's not even talk about trying to balance against pairs. Or you could just say "Well we don't expect them to get any drops against 2 ships" which would make them obsolete as that is really easy to counter.  You would also still get drops off on 2 ships with 25 AA.

At top tier they are going to feel just completely overpowered and you can get seal clubbed. At bottom tier you might just laugh at them and ignore them for the most part.  I know this is sometime the feeling with all ships but it is much more pronounced with CVs. 

 

I'll say that before the rework they felt really bad especially at T10 and after the MAJOR rework they don't feel much better.  They are either rage inducing overpowered or LOL PEPEHANDS underpowered.  

 

So you're up slugger.  If you think they can be balanced. Please explain it.

 

Average damage and winrate would show CV's as a whole are more balanced than many surface ships.  If you are playing against them and think they are OP or you are playing them and think they are useless you many need to reevaluate your skills and or tactics. 

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On 12/13/2019 at 8:22 AM, HallaSnackbar said:

Average damage and winrate would show CV's as a whole are more balanced than many surface ships.  If you are playing against them and think they are OP or you are playing them and think they are useless you many need to reevaluate your skills and or tactics. 

Assume you are playing a DD, don't have defensive AA, and your smoke is on cooldown. You can't be very close to allied ships AA because your gun and torp range are much shorter and you'd like to actually play the game.

Please explain how one should re-evaluate their skills and tactics in this situation.

 

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6 hours ago, Jaaag said:

Assume you are playing a DD, don't have defensive AA, and your smoke is on cooldown. You can't be very close to allied ships AA because your gun and torp range are much shorter and you'd like to actually play the game.

Please explain how one should re-evaluate their skills and tactics in this situation.

 

I play dd's like the one's you speak of.  They have great aerial detection.   I turn AA off, I don't go where the CV expects me to be, I don't stay too far from aa support when there are rocket planes in the air and most of all when the CV comes after me i remember my wasd keys actually help more than aa in most cases.

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On 12/12/2019 at 10:44 PM, BDC1980 said:

I took quite a while off from this game. I hated the old CVs because they were just 0 value added to the game. They were grossly overpowered and impossible to balance.

I wasn't around when they did the remake of them. 

 

They are basically the same. They are impossible to balance. Either they are grossly overpowered or they can't do anything. They add nothing to the game but a way to screw over Destroyers and drop massive amounts of damage against defenseless ships.

Honestly I've rage quit over having to deal with them since I came back.  I know that WG gets a hard on for having things in their games that people hate and I'm mainly just venting but really.. The entire ship class just doesn't do a damn thing for the game.  This isn't the real world.. they are just cancer and pretty much the only people that like them are the ones that like to seal club and have no other skill in the game.  Honestly they have wasted so much time and energy on the ship class and they are IMPOSSIBLE to balance.

Air Carrier does take skill to play. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they automatically aren't challenging in their own way. I don't know about the insane damage you are talking about, CVs do consistent small bursts of damage. I only agree with you that they feel out of place. I have mixed feelings about them as a whole. I only play Graf Zeppelin.

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The new CV's play and nerfs of all aspects of CV play SUCKS.

I have intentionally attacked the same BB over and over with a Tier 8 CV and after the whole battle still could not sink it.

Doing 1000 damage on average per torp in simple [edited].

The new bomb drop patterns and the way they vary from CV to CV is also [edited].

I used to have ALL the CVs, they took 1/2 of them away, took our hands-on driving of our CV's away, and now when flying planes, I cannot control my ships speed 

or direction of sail!!!    WOW!

Cv's SUCK SUCK SUCK!!!!!

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14 hours ago, Goobar said:

The new CV's play and nerfs of all aspects of CV play SUCKS.

I have intentionally attacked the same BB over and over with a Tier 8 CV and after the whole battle still could not sink it.

Doing 1000 damage on average per torp in simple [edited].

The new bomb drop patterns and the way they vary from CV to CV is also [edited].

I used to have ALL the CVs, they took 1/2 of them away, took our hands-on driving of our CV's away, and now when flying planes, I cannot control my ships speed 

or direction of sail!!!    WOW!

Cv's SUCK SUCK SUCK!!!!!

I was in a T10 match the other day in my Kurfurst and this Midway singled me out the entire match.  Kurfursts AA is okay,  but it isn't enough to stop entire runs by itself.  Anyway long story short I know how to deal with CV's so after a roughly sixteen minute match the guy had done 31,000 damage to me,  including fires and flooding,  and lost 31 planes,  none of them fighters.  And I survived the match.  

That being said,  plenty of good CV players out there can make them work extremely well.  Been watching Toptier and Aerroon late and both can make CV's sing.  I'm no where near that point yet but I do still enjoy them.

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8 hours ago, Palladia said:

I was in a T10 match the other day in my Kurfurst and this Midway singled me out the entire match.  Kurfursts AA is okay,  but it isn't enough to stop entire runs by itself.  Anyway long story short I know how to deal with CV's so after a roughly sixteen minute match the guy had done 31,000 damage to me,  including fires and flooding,  and lost 31 planes,  none of them fighters.  And I survived the match.  

That being said,  plenty of good CV players out there can make them work extremely well.  Been watching Toptier and Aerroon late and both can make CV's sing.  I'm no where near that point yet but I do still enjoy them.

 Those guys are good however their ability to do damage depends a lot on what the enemy team does. They had the luxury of posting their best games but I'm sure they have ones with lower damage when the team stays balled up with AA too thick to get through.

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It's the same old crap get the good CV your team wins get the bad one your team loses , That's why we need a no CV option . If you want to take your chances of getting the bad one go ahead . Me I'm sick of them and never want to see another one ever .After the rework there are more bad ones out there screwing the game all up . They never protect their team mates .

 

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On 12/14/2019 at 9:47 AM, Jaaag said:

Assume you are playing a DD, don't have defensive AA, and your smoke is on cooldown. You can't be very close to allied ships AA because your gun and torp range are much shorter and you'd like to actually play the game.

Please explain how one should re-evaluate their skills and tactics in this situation.

 

 

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I seriously think that CVs shouldn't do nearly as much damage as they do. Three rocket attack planes shouldn't do more damage to a CA than three HE shells fired from a cruiser. Why the hell are 80mm rockets penning my 30mm deck armor anyway? Following the pen formula, I should be able to ignore up to 180mm rockets.

Furthermore, when I have both priority sector and DFAA on a Des Memes, three aircraft shouldn't stand a goddamn chance. And where the hell is the scatter effect?

CVs planes are horribly unbalanced and the devs should feel terrible.

Edited by AutonomousRedux

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On 12/24/2019 at 9:19 PM, AutonomousRedux said:

I seriously think that CVs shouldn't do nearly as much damage as they do. Three rocket attack planes shouldn't do more damage to a CA than three HE shells fired from a cruiser. Why the hell are 80mm rockets penning my 30mm deck armor anyway? Following the pen formula, I should be able to ignore up to 180mm rockets.

Furthermore, when I have both priority sector and DFAA on a Des Memes, three aircraft shouldn't stand a goddamn chance. And where the hell is the scatter effect?

CVs planes are horribly unbalanced and the devs should feel terrible.

This game is not a simulator.

CV's have some of the lowest alpha damage in the game.

There are more than three planes on that attack run, there are up to 12 depending on the ship.  Only 3 get to drop.  You probably killed all but 3 prior to the drop then the remaining 3 after.  He did a little damage to you but cant use rocket planes for a few minutes now because they are all dead now.

Yes planes are horribly unbalanced with the way AA stacks and ships automatically focus fire.  Also the way sectorizing AA causes the AA to instantly knock 10% of your planes health.  Not a bad idea for a lone ship but when ships are stacked even if they are very low AA ships will nuke and entire squadron.  Things are still unbalanced, jut not in the way you think.

Maybe if you had more than 4 games in a CV you would have a better idea how to counter them.  Stats show they are still under performing compared to surface ships.

I agree the devs should feel terrible.  They allowed a bunch of inept whiners pressure them into over nerfing these ships to the point where they are mostly ineffective.

Edited by HallaSnackbar
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On 12/24/2019 at 11:19 PM, AutonomousRedux said:

I seriously think that CVs shouldn't do nearly as much damage as they do. Three rocket attack planes shouldn't do more damage to a CA than three HE shells fired from a cruiser. Why the hell are 80mm rockets penning my 30mm deck armor anyway? Following the pen formula, I should be able to ignore up to 180mm rockets.

Furthermore, when I have both priority sector and DFAA on a Des Memes, three aircraft shouldn't stand a goddamn chance. And where the hell is the scatter effect?

CVs planes are horribly unbalanced and the devs should feel terrible.

Rockets are not HE shells, an HE shell usually has less than 25% of it's volume filled with explosive, the warhead on a rocket is nearly all explosive. So, different formula.

The Royal Navy considered a fighter with rockets to be comparable from a broadside of a cruiser. No mention was made as to the type of aircraft or the type of cruiser.

Now, realistically, a salvo of rockets should do little if any damage to ships hull. But on the other hand, three fighters worth rockets should strip every AA gun, secondary gun not in a casemate, and any other light pieces of equipment off the facing side of the ship, so in one shot, you'd lose 75% of the AA guns, 66% of the secondary guns, your radar and probably suffer from increased shell dispersion for the rest of the match. I think WG let you off easy. 

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34 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Now, realistically, a salvo of rockets should do little if any damage to ships hull. But on the other hand, three fighters worth rockets should strip every AA gun, secondary gun not in a casemate, and any other light pieces of equipment off the facing side of the ship, so in one shot, you'd lose 75% of the AA guns, 66% of the secondary guns, your radar and probably suffer from increased shell dispersion for the rest of the match. I think WG let you off easy. 

Wouldn't a HE broadside from a Helena have an even more devastating effect? And yet those 15 6" shells will likely only kill a couple of AA mounts, do some damage and maybe cause a fire. No damage in the game affects radar (although it does seem to constantly break down on its own after less than a minute of use requiring several minutes of repair) or gun accuracy. Pretending that rockets alone could do all this devastation therefore we should be thankful for the limited damage they are allowed to do inflict is ridiculous.

You want to talk WG ridiculous nerfing of damage potential, lets look at the CVs themselves. Probably the most flammable ships IRL (well, Kitakami would be up there too) but you can't set them on fire (for more than a few seconds). Being on fire (or even under fire) should shut down air ops as pumping avgas around or arming planes with fires burning or bombs and shells raining down is a VERY BAD idea. But thats not how WG wants to run things.

Edited by Sabot_100

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2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Wouldn't a HE broadside from a Helena have an even more devastating effect? And yet those 15 6" shells will likely only kill a couple of AA mounts, do some damage and maybe cause a fire. No damage in the game affects radar (although it does seem to constantly break down on its own after less than a minute of use requiring several minutes of repair) or gun accuracy. Pretending that rockets alone could do all this devastation therefore we should be thankful for the limited damage they are allowed to do inflict is ridiculous.

You want to talk WG ridiculous nerfing of damage potential, lets look at the CVs themselves. Probably the most flammable ships IRL (well, Kitakami would be up there too) but you can't set them on fire (for more than a few seconds). Being on fire (or even under fire) should shut down air ops as pumping avgas around or arming planes with fires burning or bombs and shells raining down is a VERY BAD idea. But thats not how WG wants to run things.

6" HE shells are gonna penetrate the plate they hit, go inside whatever compartment is behind that plate, and gut it. Fragments will continue on into the next compartment giving whoever's in there a very bad day. The only way they're gonna do a lot of damage to everything around them is if they hit a slab of armor, then everyone on the front of that armor is gonna get shredded. A fuse that detonates on impact does take time to actually do it's thing, and the shell is still moving while this is happening. 

Rockets, don't have the velocity or the mass of a shell, and aren't going to punch through the superstructure, at which point they're basically a big grenade going off on deck, the fragments from which are going to punch through anything lightweight, like the gun tubs, 5"/38 cal turrets, ect... fragments might go through the deck but won't go deep enough into a ship to do significant damage.

In game, a salvo of 6" HE is a heck of a lot more effective than a salvo of rockets at everything, even though they should have wildly differing effects. Rockets would clear the light stuff off the deck, 6" HE would gut the superstructure.

CV's, especially after some of them were turned into gigantic floating bonfires quickly became the least flammable ships in the world. Purge the fuel out of the AVgas lines, no major munitions to be found outside the magazines, and once the aircraft are off there's very little to burn. Doesn't hurt that they have the most extensive fire fighting systems available, and layout wise are easier to fight fires on (no armored barbetts cutting the ship into sections, if the hanger isn't what's on fire you can go from one end to the other using it, ect...) 

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42 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Purge the fuel out of the AVgas lines, no major munitions to be found outside the magazines, and once the aircraft are off there's very little to burn.

Which would mean the CV is not launching aircraft under fire. A common feat in game. Its a game, lots of tradeoffs.

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25 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Which would mean the CV is not launching aircraft under fire. A common feat in game. Its a game, lots of tradeoffs.

True, just like DD's having reloads in game. (only the IJN carried reloads, and couldn't reload them in the 20 minutes that a game takes)

HE Shells starting fires and AP Shells do not. (HE shells burst in the outer compartments where there is little to burn, AP rounds have a habit of breaking equipment inside the ship that tends to start fires)

Or, using AA guns and your main batteries at the same time.(In most ships, firing the main batteries had the potential to injure or kill exposed personnel when you fired over their positions. If you are at General Quarters, surface action, most of the AA guns would not be manned, while at General Quarters for an air attack, the main batteries would have a reduced crew. Only Musashi as she is in game (and Yamato before her refit) could safely man both at the same time thanks to the armored housings on all the 25mm and 127mm AA guns.)

So yes, lots of trade off.

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