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Tank_Ace

What is the advantage of IFHE

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Just notice IFHe. 

So with IFHE you increase the chance of pen of but decrease the chance of setting thing on fire.  Over all does that cause more damages if you are shooting HE?  Under what situation (what type of ship) would this be an advantage?  And how would you use this to it full effect? 

And I just notice it is n/a on british bb where you would use HE a lot. 

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Just now, Tank_Ace said:

Just notice IFHe. 

So with IFHE you increase the chance of pen of but decrease the chance of setting thing on fire.  Over all does that cause more damages if you are shooting HE?  Under what situation (what type of ship) would this be an advantage?  And how would you use this to it full effect? 

And I just notice it is n/a on british bb where you would use HE a lot. 

30% more HE penetration with a minor trade off in fire chance...Soon to be a 50% reduction in fire chance.

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30% increase in HE pen.  But as I recall I only get pen in HE once in a blue moon.  I get more oven pen with AP then pen with He all day long.  30% increase of zero is still zero.  Or am I missing something.  I am talking mostly about BB's

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16 minutes ago, Tank_Ace said:

30% increase in HE pen.  But as I recall I only get pen in HE once in a blue moon.  I get more oven pen with AP then pen with He all day long.  30% increase of zero is still zero.  Or am I missing something.  I am talking mostly about BB's

for bb dont need HE  pen is based mostly on a 1/6 scale for bbs, excepting being UK bbs. so you take the caliber of the shell divide by 6 and what you get is how much armor your shells can pen and do damage on. Any part you hit that has more armor then this value will shatter the shell.  Now if you take IFHE then you can add 30% to that. Ifhe should be used to surpase a certain thresholds, most notably 32mm.

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pen isn't supposed to be a chance. but i have my doubts. it's supposed to be the pen of the shell and the thickness of armor, factoring in range to target and angle at which shell hits target. if you want to get it, get it. but i feel like some ships would rather light fires than pen. certain ships use ifhe for secondaries because it can greatly increase the pens from secondaries when they would otherwise all shatter. AP overpens on light cruisers and dd's because the target's armor isn't thick enough to arm.

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It's a good skill for light cruisers and some DD's. Battleships with really good secondaries also benefit from IFHE.

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42 minutes ago, Tank_Ace said:

Over all does that cause more damages if you are shooting HE?  Under what situation (what type of ship) would this be an advantage?  And how would you use this to it full effect? 

And I just notice it is n/a on British BB

It depends a lot on what your ship is, and what you are trying to pen. You can still choose it in a British BB, it just doesn't have much useful value at all, so they recommend against it. But in a high tier Brit DD it completely changes the penetration for so many targets that it is effectively an essential skill. Will you do more damage with the reduced fire chance? Yes, probably 95% of the time, but that all depends on RNG luck really. There are some players with the Smolensk who go play without IFHE, but I would bet none of the top players are in that group. 

Edited by TheArc

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IFHE refers to the armor thickness your HE shell can penetrate. For instance, a 127mm gun (common on DDs) usually can penetrate 20mm of armor, picking IFHE increases its capability to 26mm of armor.

Some gun calibers benefit from IFHE by allowing them to penetrate specific armor thickness values that are particularly common on their matchmaking spread. The most common values are 32mm (found on the bow of high tier BBs) and 50mm (found on the deck of certain BBs, like GK).

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Pretty much what Chiv said. You don't need IFHE on any battleship, and the only one that IFHE would give an actual benefit to is Conquerer, since it would bring your HE pen high enough to HE citadel any cruiser and some battleships. AP would still be better in the long run though, so that would only really be useful in situations where your situational awareness doesn't give you enough time to switch from HE to AP to catch a broadside enemy. It's also a common skill in secondary gun focused builds for battleships, but in my opinion it's really only worth it on the Germans because of the improved penetration of their guns (that get the secondary gun HE pen to either 27mm or 32mm depending on caliber).

For cruisers, with a couple exceptions anything with guns larger than 203mm doesn't need IFHE since it won't take your pen above any significant armor thresholds in the game. Currently the only exceptions would be IFHE Henri IV (very much recommended for competitive, since it allows you to HE pen the lower 50mm bow section of Moskva/Stalingrad and the 50mm main belt armor of Khabarovsk), IFHE Hindenburg (not necessarily as useful since you already have 50mm pen but it does let you HE pen some battleship decks in your matchmaking range), and IFHE Azuma/Yoshino (all of the battleship decks that IFHE Hindenburg would pen, plus some battleship secondary mounts and cruiser main belts/turret armor in the 51-67mm range that would take full pen damage from HE instead of shattering). Assuming the UK CAs come into the game in their current testing form with 1/4 HE pen, IFHE on the t9 and 10 will let you pen 76mm armor (the highest cruiser HE pen in the game) including pretty much any battleship deck except FdG and sections on the Russian BBs.

Any cruiser below 203mm can definitely benefit from IFHE, since it takes any cruiser with 152mm+ guns above the 32mm threshold for high tier battleship bow/stern armor, and brings any cruiser with 127-130mm guns (Atlanta/Flint, Colbert, Smolensk (although the last two don't necessarily need it since you'll still get a lot of damage from fires)) up to the 27mm threshold of all high tier cruiser bow/stern armor. For high tier 152-180mm cruisers it's basically required based on the armor of the ships that you can face, but on low and mid tier cruisers it's not as needed (although it doesn't necessarily hurt to have for the few situations where you'll need it).

With destroyers, there are some that benefit quite a bit from it (Akizuki and up in the IJN gunboat line gets up to 32mm aka battleship bow/stern) or need it to currently be effective (Jutland/Daring, to get them above the 19mm threshold for most high tier destroyer armor). At low to mid tiers it can be useful on 127mm armed destroyers since battleship bow/stern armor in that range is normally in the 25mm range (and would be penned with IFHE) but at higher tiers it becomes more situational (it only gives you the ability to pen cruiser bow/stern armor, the only part of battleships that can be penned with HE (the superstructure) is the same with or without IFHE).

 

This is all assuming the current IFHE and HE pen system, not the proof of concept test posted a few days ago.

Edited by MidnightPhoenix07

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59 minutes ago, Tank_Ace said:

Just notice IFHe. 

So with IFHE you increase the chance of pen of but decrease the chance of setting thing on fire.  Over all does that cause more damages if you are shooting HE?  Under what situation (what type of ship) would this be an advantage?  And how would you use this to it full effect? 

And I just notice it is n/a on british bb where you would use HE a lot. 

Whether IFHE is advantageous or not depends on the ship’s weapons systems and matchmaking spread. In it’s currrent iteration, IFHE is almost mandatory on many CLs, especially those armed with 152-155mm guns. IFHE allows their HE to pen 32mm, which corresponds to the bow and stern plating of tier 8+ BBs. Without IFHE, 152mm HE will shatter against 25mm of plating. This is a huge increase in direct dpm for a comparatively minor reduction in fire chance.

The way HE works, penetration is unaffected by range or angling - all that matters is the size of the shell and the thickness of the plate it strikes. This is very different from AP, which is affected by both. The standard rule is 1/6 the diameter of the shell shatters the shell. For example, for 152mm HE: 152/6 = 25.33, which rounds to 25. Thus, 25mm of armor shatters the shell, but it will penetrate 24mm of armor.

Exceptions to this rule are the main guns of British battleships, German battleships, and most German cruisers (those with at least 128mm guns, IIRC), all Japanese 100mm guns, and the secondaries on German battleships, high tier cruisers, and carriers. These guns get 1/4 pen instead.

In general, CLs, especially those with 152mm guns, get a lot of value from IFHE. CAs, outside of a few special cases (Henri IV comes to mind), are better off without it, as the increased penetration does not cross many notable thresholds for most ships (particularly those armed with 203mm guns). For destroyers and cruisers with less than 152mm guns, it’s more of a toss-up, dependent on personal preference and the tier of the ship in question. Some secondary-specced battleships can also benefit from IFHE to get increased pen from their secondaries.

Edited by Nevermore135

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38 minutes ago, Tank_Ace said:

Just notice IFHe. 

So with IFHE you increase the chance of pen of but decrease the chance of setting thing on fire.  Over all does that cause more damages if you are shooting HE?  Under what situation (what type of ship) would this be an advantage?  And how would you use this to it full effect? 

And I just notice it is n/a on british bb where you would use HE a lot. 

N/A doesn't mean you can not take it, just that it is not optimal for a BB. Most HE shells divide the pen by 6, but some like the UK BBs divide by 4.

 

Take New Mexico with 356mm main batteries. 356mm / 6 = 59.33 rounded to nearest mm for 59mm, so NM 356mm HE pens 58mm of armor. With IFHE you take the 59mm and and multiply by 1.3 (+30%) to get 76.7mm rounded up to 77mm and you can pen 76mm. At tier 6, that pens superstructures, fore and aft armor, deck armor, etc, but rarely belt armor. So the 58mm of HE pen that still pens superstructures, fore & aft armor, deck armor, etc is fine and the 4pts for IFHE would be not useful.

 

Take Warspite with 381mm guns. 381 / 4 = 95.25 rounded to nearest mm of 95mm, so it pens 94mm. 381mm UK IFHE is 95 * 1.3 = 123.5 rounded up to 124mm and it pens 123mm. There are very few if any armor belts between 95mm and 123mm, so it is not very useful.

 

You really want to look at the tier range of the ship you are putting IFHE on to see if there is armor levels that you need to cross with IFHE or not.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, throwawayforumalt said:

pen isn't supposed to be a chance. but i have my doubts. it's supposed to be the pen of the shell and the thickness of armor, factoring in range to target and angle at which shell hits target. 

HE penetration doesn't care about range or angle, only the base thickness of the armor plating it's hitting

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Note that german BBs sometimes use IFHE when they go for a secondary build, as it allows their secondaries to penetrate 32mm armor thickness, found on the bow of high tier BBs. Whether it is a good idea to go for such build is another story, but it's not uncommon.

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47 minutes ago, The_Chiv said:

for bb dont need HE  pen is based mostly on a 1/6 scale for bbs, excepting being UK bbs. so you take the caliber of the shell divide by 6 and what you get is how much armor your shells can pen and do damage on. Any part you hit that has more armor then this value will shatter the shell.  Now if you take IFHE then you can add 30% to that. Ifhe should be used to surpase a certain thresholds, most notably 32mm.

The shell shatter are you talking about HE here or AP or both??  And when you folks talk about shatter, it cause not damage, right? thanks

Edited by Tank_Ace

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13 minutes ago, MidnightPhoenix07 said:

HE penetration doesn't care about range or angle, only the base thickness of the armor plating it's hitting

well now you tell me

edit: i think the 1/6 rule is for overmatch, then angle doesn't matter. wait maybe i'm all wrong. armor should reduce fire damage taken, imo.

Edited by throwawayforumalt
more qq

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1 hour ago, Tank_Ace said:

Just notice IFHe. 

So with IFHE you increase the chance of pen of but decrease the chance of setting thing on fire.  Over all does that cause more damages if you are shooting HE?  Under what situation (what type of ship) would this be an advantage?  And how would you use this to it full effect? 

And I just notice it is n/a on british bb where you would use HE a lot. 

IFHE, it only improves Penetration for gun calibers 157mm and below.

Anything about that caliber its not worth having IFHE...

All IFHE does is, it

  • Changes your DMG output from Fires to actual HE shell Pens.
  • produces Less HE shell Shatters

Under what situation??? When you're sober playing the game, not under the influence

That is it really...

Edited by Navalpride33

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Just now, throwawayforumalt said:

well now you tell me

The only things that care about armor angle are AP and SAP shells. In theory AP bombs would as well, but in practice unless they're hitting the armored belt (which would bounce them anyway because of the severe angle), they're not going to be hitting any angled armor.

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9 minutes ago, throwawayforumalt said:

well now you tell me

edit: i think the 1/6 rule is for overmatch, then angle doesn't matter. wait maybe i'm all wrong. armor should reduce fire damage taken, imo.

Take a look at these, they may answer some of your questions.

Edited by Nevermore135

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59 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

IFHE, it only improves Penetration for gun calibers 157mm and below.

Anything about that caliber its not worth having IFHE...

*cough* Donskoi 180mm guns with 30mm (edit: 29mm) HE pen *cough*

And of course the already mentioned 240s on Henri for competitive, and the potential benefits of IFHE Azuma/Yoshino and Drake/Goliath

Edited by MidnightPhoenix07

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For secondary battleships,  only the Germans really glean a lot from IFHE.  For French battleships its the fire starting from their 152's that deal the bulk of their damage and IFHE actually hurts that.  Haven't tested it on the USN secondary ships yet,  someone else will have to tell if the 127's really benefit from it.  I miiiggghhhtttt be wrong but I think it should allow them to go above the 32mm mark which could be pretty scary and help to counterbalance the 127's need to start fires to really supplement their damage on heavier targets.  Don't think it would be worth it if the 50% fire chance reduction goes through,  tho'.

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6 minutes ago, MidnightPhoenix07 said:

*cough* Donskoi 180mm guns with 30mm HE pen *cough

That is depending on one's aim... If you're wanting to increase your HE pen because your aim is bad then, IFHE can help reduce shatters. Even for the Donskoi.


 I forgot to add, MM also comes into play... IF they're alot of heavy armor ships in queue, then you may want to try IFHE. To reduce HE shell shatters.

 

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1 minute ago, Navalpride33 said:

That is depending on one's aim... If you're wanting to increase your HE pen because your aim is bad then, IFHE can help reduce shatters. Even for the Donskoi.


 I forgot to add, MM also comes into play... IF they're alot of heavy armor ships in queue, then you may want to try IFHE. To reduce HE shell shatters.

 

:Smile_amazed:

Without IFHE, 180mm guns pen 29mm of armor. With IFHE, they pen 38mm of armor. At tier IX, this is a significant difference.

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1 hour ago, Tank_Ace said:

30% increase in HE pen.  But as I recall I only get pen in HE once in a blue moon.  I get more oven pen with AP then pen with He all day long.  30% increase of zero is still zero.  Or am I missing something.  I am talking mostly about BB's

Not much use for BBs. DDs and cruisers use it to pass certain armor thresholds, like IFHE on 152mm guns allows to pen T8+ BB plating. On 127mm guns, it allows you to pen (IIRC) T5-7 BB plating.

Otherwise, you get shatters and no damage.

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59 minutes ago, Tank_Ace said:

The shell shatter are you talking about HE here or AP or both??  And when you folks talk about shatter, it cause not damage, right? thanks

HE

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1 hour ago, Navalpride33 said:

That is depending on one's aim... If you're wanting to increase your HE pen because your aim is bad then, IFHE can help reduce shatters. Even for the Donskoi.

Aim doesn't really come into the equation in the case of Donskoi with regards to using IFHE or not - with the prevalence of battleships in high tier matches, without IFHE all you're penning on them is the superstructure, which isn't always going to be a viable target depending on angle (bow in battleships) or ship (something like Izumo that has a very small superstructure), and hoping for fires whose damage can be completely healed back. At high tiers, any cruiser that doesn't have 27 or 32mm HE pen pretty much needs IFHE unless you're someone who plays non-IFHE Smolensk/Colbert (which until IFHE is reworked isn't necessarily recommended since you lose bow and stern pen on every cruiser in your MM spread except the UK CLs).

There's a reason pretty much every normal or recommended build for high tier CLs (and yes, Donskoi counts as a CL according to WG) has IFHE. Getting over the 27 or 32mm thresholds that become common starting at t8 is significant.

Edited by MidnightPhoenix07

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