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Shinzon1

Pan-Asian DDs...what happened??

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With the new Pan-European line coming out it seems like the Pan-Asian line is now utterly worthless in its play-style. Save the deep-water torps (which reload way too slowly and cannot hit DDs) the Euro's seem to be better in every way while being quite similar. Heals, Radar, amazing torpedoes, reasonable gun DPM. No smoke but you couldn't mount Radar and smoke in either line anyway. I'm just left wondering what in the hell happened with the Pan-Asian's that they are being completely re-imagined in the form of the Euro line? Why would you completely cannibalize a line? Why was YueYang nerfed so damn hard that many were left scratching our collective heads. I can back a nerf when needed but the YueYang and then Chung Mu nerf were just too much for me. I like many others completely abandoned that line. 

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It doesn't help the PADD Line that the crown jewels of the Line got nerfed.  There's still Gadjah Mada but nobody ever talks about her anymore.

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23 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It doesn't help the PADD Line that the crown jewels of the Line got nerfed.  There's still Gadjah Mada but nobody ever talks about her anymore.

I think people got the message after the Chung Mu got nerfed. We talked about how much better it was than the T10 YY and poof, it got clapped. Maybe thats why silence is wise for the Gadjha. 

Edited by Shinzon1

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15 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It doesn't help the PADD Line that the crown jewels of the Line got nerfed.  There's still Gadjah Mada but nobody ever talks about her anymore.

3 minutes ago, Shinzon1 said:

I think people got the messages after the Chung Mu got nerfed. We talked about how much better it was that the T10 YY and poof, it got clapped. Maybe thats why silence is wise for the Gadjha. 

Wasn't the T9 nerfed a couple patches back and YY buffed?

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What happened was nothing more than typical WG lack of understanding of statistics and balance fundamentals.

WG openly admitted that they make balance decisions based on the performance of a ship compared to others of the same type ONLY. This is completely ignorant and an incorrect comparison due to the fact that ALL ships face and interact with ALL ships in the primary game modes.

WG's almost word for word "reasoning" behind nerfing Yue Yang was that it was "performing better than its peers"  (aka other T10 DDs).

Well lets dissect that for a moment shall we. Take 3 Race car drivers. Sabotage the care of the current best driver. What happens? There is a new best...so on and so forth.  "Because it is performing better than its peers" is not a valid justification for balance decisions. If one actually analyzes the ship performance data what do they see? DDs as a ship type underperforming, as in most T10 DDs actually underpowered save for a few. The Yue Yang, like the pre-nerf Khaba, and the Kleber now... performing within the balance range (aka balanced ships). What else can be seen in the data? Most T10 BBs overperforming, as in most T10 BBs actually overpowered. Pre-nerf, the Yue Yang was still performing LOWER than about half the T10 Cruisers and ALL T10 BBs.

So now lets say I see you walking down the street. I tell you that you cannot walk down the street, and walk down the street myself. That is called what? Hypocrisy, a double-standard.
So if WG actually felt "performing better than its peers" was a justification alone for a nerf, then where is adherence to the same standard when they refuse to nerf the BB that "performs better than its peers"?

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3 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

What happened was nothing more than typical WG lack of understanding of statistics and balance fundamentals.

WG openly admitted that they make balance decisions based on the performance of a ship compared to others of the same type ONLY. This is completely ignorant and an incorrect comparison due to the fact that ALL ships face and interact with ALL ships in the primary game modes.

WG's almost word for word "reasoning" behind nerfing Yue Yang was that it was "performing better than its peers"  (aka other T10 DDs).

Well lets dissect that for a moment shall we. Take 3 Race car drivers. Sabotage the care of the current best driver. What happens? There is a new best...so on and so forth.  "Because it is performing better than its peers" is not a valid justification for balance decisions. If one actually analyzes the ship performance data what do they see? DDs as a ship type underperforming, as in most T10 DDs actually underpowered save for a few. The Yue Yang, like the pre-nerf Khaba, and the Kleber now... performing within the balance range (aka balanced ships). What else can be seen in the data? Most T10 BBs overperforming, as in most T10 BBs actually overpowered. Pre-nerf, the Yue Yang was still performing LOWER than about half the T10 Cruisers and ALL T10 BBs.

So now lets say I see you walking down the street. I tell you that you cannot walk down the street, and walk down the street myself. That is called what? Hypocrisy, a double-standard.
So if WG actually felt "performing better than its peers" was a justification alone for a nerf, then where is adherence to the same standard when they refuse to nerf the BB that "performs better than its peers"?

The way I see it is that WG really hurt the YY by nerfing BOTH the gun and torp reload rates.  They'd have been far smarter to nerf just one and leave the other as is.

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7 minutes ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Wasn't the T9 nerfed a couple patches back and YY buffed?

YY was buffed but it was woefully inadequate and in no way restored it to its former glory. Meanwhile, new DDs just kept coming out further marginalizing the PADD line. 

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27 minutes ago, Shinzon1 said:

With the new Pan-European line coming out it seems like the Pan-Asian line is now utterly worthless in its play-style. Save the deep-water torps (which reload way too slowly and cannot hit DDs) the Euro's seem to be better in every way while being quite similar. Heals, Radar, amazing torpedoes, reasonable gun DPM. No smoke but you couldn't mount Radar and smoke in either line anyway. I'm just left wondering what in the hell happened with the Pan-Asian's that they are being completely re-imagined in the form of the Euro line? Why would you completely cannibalize a line? Why was YueYang nerfed so damn hard that many were left scratching our collective heads. I can back a nerf when needed but the YueYang and then Chung Mu nerf were just too much for me. I like many others completely abandoned that line. 

Don't forget that the Pan-EU stats released are the initial stats that always change in some way before release. RU BBs were going to have a big boy RADAR, but that was removed.

 

That said, if you min/max, it is a worry. Otherwise, it's just another line.

 

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4 minutes ago, Shinzon1 said:

I think people got the messages after the Chung Mu got nerfed. We talked about how much better it was that the T10 YY and poof, it got clapped. Maybe thats why silence is wise for the Gadjha. 

YueYang was all the rage but then got hammered.  I never got her, I was still grinding on Chung Mu when that happened and it killed any incentive to get YY.  Still, the Line at least still had the bada** Chung Mu.  Then even SHE got hammered.

 

1 minute ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Wasn't the T9 nerfed a couple patches back and YY buffed?

I do recall a YY buff a while back, but that ship has been deserted for a long time now.

3rd Quarter 2019 NA stats, Battles Played Tier X DDs

Shimakaze 347,309

Gearing 244,895

Harugumo 140,617

Z-52 70,791

Daring 65,805

Grozovoi 56,437

Khabarovsk 53,321

Yueyang 34,623

Kleber 12,711 (New DD Line, will be low for a while)

Somers 7,469 (Expensive Steel Ship, will be low)

 

A WoWS EU Forum Post talking about the devpost for the Yueyang Nerf in November 2018:  Yueyang being slaughtered.

I went back to Maplesyrup and looked up 3rd Quarter 2018 NA server stats (2018/06/30 - 2018/09/29), before any word hit the internet that WG was going to slit YY's wrists.  In that quarter, these 2 PADDs logged these battles, and compared them to 3rd Quarter 2019 Battles Played.

Yueyang 91,259 -> 34,623 :Smile_amazed:

Chung Mu 53,008 -> 31,282

The devs butchered the PADD Line post-release, but what happened to Yueyang was a massacre.

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28 minutes ago, Crucis said:

The way I see it is that WG really hurt the YY by nerfing BOTH the gun and torp reload rates.  They'd have been far smarter to nerf just one and leave the other as is.

The problem is really that the data 100% contradicted any claim of it overperforming and needing a nerf in the first place.

It is like I said, comparing how a ship performs to others of the same type only is incorrect.

The logical and sensible chain of thought would have been as follows:

1.) Determine balance range. If you plot the general performance of each ship at T10 for each metric on a plot graph and find where the tightest grouping is for >33% of total ships. 
2.) Now observe any ships outside this range. If you find a ship that performs better than this range, no change is needed as long as it is the highest performing ship AND the difference between the top end of the range and this ship outside it is not greater than the difference between the top end of the range and the next ship within the range. The same for ships that perform worse than the range, just in reverse.
3.) If there are ships that perform higher than this range and do no satisfy the two conditions, action must be taken to reduce the performance of those ships (e.g. nerf). Again, the reverse for ships performing lower with the action resulting in a buff.


Now if you find pre-nerf YY in regards to this balance range, it would be placed within the range and just below the average performance of ALL T10s. Hmm.... So what about Gearing? This would be the next question because Yue Yangs release only made how lackluster and powercreeped Gearing was in comparison to the strength of ALL Tier 10 ships and with how many anti-DD counters have been added to the game. So how about the performance of the Gearing on that plot graph. Well it would be performing well BELOW the range, by a significant gap. The common-sense action would be to then BUFF gearing either directly or by giving it new options NOT to nerf Yue Yang so that it performs down below the balance range just because the rest of the DDs do as well.

If WG had this sensibility, we wouldn't even have gotten to this point, nor would Gearing have been power creeped by YY. Why? Because Khaba was showing as balanced before they nerfed it. So if DDs were brought up to Khabas level of being able to impact matches, it would have been solved long before. 

Edited by Varknyn12

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I'm surprised they didn't get the Jean Bart treatment; nurf tech tree ship, pump out prenurf as harder to get premium. 

Spoiler

Also they broke all the IJN legs already so they had to resort to breaking the legs of their neighbors.  :Smile_trollface:

 

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10 minutes ago, Yoshiblue said:

I'm surprised they didn't get the Jean Bart treatment; nurf tech tree ship, pump out prenurf as harder to get premium. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Also they broke all the IJN legs already so they had to resort to breaking the legs of their neighbors.  :Smile_trollface:

 

They kind of did. Unfortunately, Somers is very extremely lackluster compared to Bourgogne lol. (BBs are their favorite afterall)

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I still remember the pointless hinden/roon ROF nerf because of the same reasons. They always nerf the wrong ships, then they buff carriers and release broken premiums which i think cant be nerfed.

PA and german dds will be the lines that will get hurt the most (as if they werent on the bottom of the barrel already along with the russian gunboats). They gave them torps that are practically DW with that speed so they get the PA gimmick, then they have radar which is replacing german hydro gimmick because they can fight caps much much safer, plus this radar completely destroys a german dd trying to cap.

But it doesnt end there, they have heal! why? i still think that jutland and daring shouldnt have heal, im no fan of repair parties on dds

Edited by Verijero

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1 hour ago, Verijero said:

I still remember the pointless hinden/roon ROF nerf because of the same reasons. They always nerf the wrong ships, then they buff carriers and release broken premiums which i think cant be nerfed.

PA and german dds will be the lines that will get hurt the most (as if they werent on the bottom of the barrel already along with the russian gunboats). They gave them torps that are practically DW with that speed so they get the PA gimmick, then they have radar which is replacing german hydro gimmick because they can fight caps much much safer, plus this radar completely destroys a german dd trying to cap.

But it doesnt end there, they have heal! why? i still think that jutland and daring shouldnt have heal, im no fan of repair parties on dds

For what it's worth, I find German hydro more useful than a 15 second DD radar.  Regardless...

The PA DDs right now seem like nearly pure torp boats when compared to the harder core gunboat DDs that are at tier 10, given that the PA DD DWTs are very solid anti-everything except DD torpedoes and their USN 5" guns are nothing to write home about.

Regarding DD heals and heals in general, I kind of wish that heals were either removed from all ships or they were given to all ships, because it seems that when you have some ships having heals at the same tier as other ships of the same type not having heals, it creates a very large gap in survivability.

I like the Z-52 and have had some good success with it in Ranked, but I realize that it's no longer considered one of the better t10 DDs.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Crucis said:

For what it's worth, I find German hydro more useful than a 15 second DD radar.  Regardless...

The PA DDs right now seem like nearly pure torp boats when compared to the harder core gunboat DDs that are at tier 10, given that the PA DD DWTs are very solid anti-everything except DD torpedoes and their USN 5" guns are nothing to write home about.

Regarding DD heals and heals in general, I kind of wish that heals were either removed from all ships or they were given to all ships, because it seems that when you have some ships having heals at the same tier as other ships of the same type not having heals, it creates a very large gap in survivability.

I like the Z-52 and have had some good success with it in Ranked, but I realize that it's no longer considered one of the better t10 DDs.

 

 

I agree with the heal statement. 

One of the issues is pen. It doesn't make sense that IJN 100mm gets 1/4 pen... a BETTER base pen than some DDs with BIGGER guns... yet those 100m (especially on Haragumo line) still get to retain better velocity, and super fast reload that is meant to balance out the fact it has smaller guns (so should its pen be smaller). All DDs should get 1/4 base pen, especially if IFHE gets nerfed.

As far as YY. It simply needs to have its torps drastically buffed to not only make it balanced but also give it a valid role in the same swing.

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1 hour ago, Verijero said:

PA and german dds will be the lines that will get hurt the most (as if they werent on the bottom of the barrel already along with the russian gunboats). They gave them torps that are practically DW with that speed so they get the PA gimmick, then they have radar which is replacing german hydro gimmick because they can fight caps much much safer, plus this radar completely destroys a german dd trying to cap.

But it doesnt end there, they have heal! why? i still think that jutland and daring shouldnt have heal, im no fan of repair parties on dds

1: With a huge detection range and low damage. They are effectively anti-DD torps next to the DD immune torps of PA DDs.

2: A radar that only lasts a fraction of the duration of hydro, and doesn't reach out much further than German hydro if memory serves.

3: They are DDs that suck at running, and have a smoke you can't really use for long, so while they can disengage, you'll have trouble actually firing much. Not only that, but a fighter plane lasts around as long as they smoke, so if they can't spot and shoot down your fighter, they are a bit boned once their smoke fades. They are one of my favorite DDs to see on the red team when I'm a CV.

If there is no CV, however, they are fairly strong for all the tools they have. This isn't Pre-rework where CVs are nearly non-existent by T10, however, so the tradeoffs are very noticible. It's part of why I actually dislike seeing PA or US DDs on the red team. Not because of AA, but the smoke is so long it's hard to be ready for when it runs out.

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2 hours ago, Shinzon1 said:

YY was buffed but it was woefully inadequate and in no way restored it to its former glory. Meanwhile, new DDs just kept coming out further marginalizing the PADD line. 

If they nerfed her in the first place, I doubt they want her to see her former glory. Now, a new but lesser glory, sure, but undoing the nerf completely defeats the point.

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38 minutes ago, Varknyn12 said:

I agree with the heal statement. 

One of the issues is pen. It doesn't make sense that IJN 100mm gets 1/4 pen... a BETTER base pen than some DDs with BIGGER guns... yet those 100m (especially on Haragumo line) still get to retain better velocity, and super fast reload that is meant to balance out the fact it has smaller guns (so should its pen be smaller). All DDs should get 1/4 base pen, especially if IFHE gets nerfed.

As far as YY. It simply needs to have its torps drastically buffed to not only make it balanced but also give it a valid role in the same swing.

Not quite sure why you say that the YY's torps need to be "drastically" buffed.  The torps themselves are pretty damned good, IMO.  Their only fault is their reload time.

Regarding Heals, arguably, if ALL ships had heals, it would be a step in the direction of a number of things. 

First, it would help make cruisers somewhat more survivable. BBs don't have to worry about this since all BBs already have heals, so it's a non-issue to them.  It would help DD survivability too, as long as the DD heals weren't too potent or too numerous.  Maybe 1 charge of standard heal, 2 of premium heal, and +1 if you have the Superintendent skill.

Two, giving heal to all ships would remove the incredible advantage that certain ships have by having heals over those that don't.  Just looking at a DD like the Kidd with her heal, she is capable of having an astounding amount of extra HP, which seems to give her a huge advantage over other DDs.

Three, if all ships had Heals, managing them well would seem to be something that would value skill.  Of course, the same would probably be true in a different way if no ships had heals.

 

Regarding the 1/4 pen thing and DDs, we should probably wait to see how this currently WiP IFHE, etc. thing works out.

 

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14 hours ago, Crucis said:

Not quite sure why you say that the YY's torps need to be "drastically" buffed.  The torps themselves are pretty damned good, IMO.  Their only fault is their reload time.

Regarding Heals, arguably, if ALL ships had heals, it would be a step in the direction of a number of things. 

First, it would help make cruisers somewhat more survivable. BBs don't have to worry about this since all BBs already have heals, so it's a non-issue to them.  It would help DD survivability too, as long as the DD heals weren't too potent or too numerous.  Maybe 1 charge of standard heal, 2 of premium heal, and +1 if you have the Superintendent skill.

Two, giving heal to all ships would remove the incredible advantage that certain ships have by having heals over those that don't.  Just looking at a DD like the Kidd with her heal, she is capable of having an astounding amount of extra HP, which seems to give her a huge advantage over other DDs.

Three, if all ships had Heals, managing them well would seem to be something that would value skill.  Of course, the same would probably be true in a different way if no ships had heals.

 

Regarding the 1/4 pen thing and DDs, we should probably wait to see how this currently WiP IFHE, etc. thing works out.

 

I say they need to be drastically buffed because in their current iteration, post-nerf, they are actually a downgrade from Gearing torps in equally skilled hands. It makes sense for YY guns to be a downgrade from Gearing guns, but the torps should be a complete upgrade to reflect the target restrictions.
With that said, the data makes it clear that Gearing needs a buff overall as well and so do DD torps in general.  Hence the "Drastically" part.

Edited by Varknyn12

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1 hour ago, Varknyn12 said:

I say they need to be drastically buffed because in their current iteration, post-nerf, they are actually a downgrade from Gearing torps in equally skilled hands. It makes sense for YY guns to be a downgrade from Gearing guns, but the torps should be a complete upgrade to reflect the target restrictions.
With that said, the data makes it clear that Gearing needs a buff overall as well and so do DD torps in general.  Hence the "Drastically" part.

Reload aside, I don't see the PA DWTs as a downgrade from the Gearing torps at all.  Sure, as DWTs they can't hit DDs, but OTOH, with their very low detection, they can get hits on larger ships that might be dodged by those same larger ships if the torps were Gearing torps.

 

As for the Gearing itself, IMO, the Gearing has been somewhat power crept and is quite bland.  It just doesn't have the large tool box that newer tier 10 DDs have been given, and as such is pretty boring to play.  On top of that, she's one of the slower tier 10 DDs and always feels a bit like a whale to me.  I find it odd that if you compare the USN DD line with the IJN torp boat DD line, the IJN torp boats are always slower or the same speed is the USN DDs … until you reach tier 10, when the Shimmy is a good deal faster than the Gearing.   Hell, if you compare the Gearing to the Sommers, I think that the Sommers is better than the Gearing in all ways except for overall gun DPM.  But even there, the Sommers has 4 dual turrets to the Gearings 3, which somewhat offsets any DPM advantage of the Gearing.  If I was looking to give the Gearing a minor buff, I'd probably lean towards improving her speed to be closer to 38-39 kts.  OTOH, if I was going to do something about her toolkit, I might suggest changing the consumable slot where you choose between speed boost and DefAA to giving Speed Boost and DefAA their own slots.  This wouldn't be a huge change, since DefAA has little real value unless you're in a CV battle, though I suppose if they did split them into separate slots, they could consider putting another option into the slot with DefAA to give you a choice between DefAA and something else.  I'd probably suggest a Heal, as hydro, radar, and reload boosters on USN DDs aren't a thing.  But a Heal might give the Gearing some more staying power.  Of course, a Heal might be considered so good that it might easily be the far better choice over DefAA.  Then again, maybe a Heal rather than DefAA would really be just the buff the Gearing needs to feel more relevant as a tier 10 DD.

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