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stronk_like_bear

The Core issue with CVs

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The core problem with CV gameplay is a lack of any type of pvp element in CV interactions.

They don't attack each other, but rather just prey on ships the entire game. Surface ships can only hope their AA takes out enough so they don't get the strike off, and even then shooting down planes doesn't stop the CV from sending more squads as they don't run out of planes. There is no way to even hurt the CV. So it's a simple predator/prey interaction with the majority of players being prey. And feeling like prey when you want to pvp is driving people away from the game.

There must be a cost and risk to attacking. Without it, there will always be the predator/prey dynamic instead of pvp.

So what are some possible solutions?

  • There must be a limit on planes. All other ships have a limit on health, and planes are essentially the health of the CV.
  • Each plane shot down can lower the health of the CV by a percentage of planes it started with. Example: With 50 planes in hangar, if you shoot down 25 the CV loses half health.
  • Add an option to not enter CV matches. This would quite quickly show who likes the CV state as it is. It might also stop people from leaving the game due to the CV problem.
  • Make fighters more useful to encourage CV vs CV play and encourage a friendly CV to protect his fleet. Taking CV health with planes shot down (above) would greatly encourage this.
     

I'm sure this will get lots of the usual flames, but most people realize there is a serious problem here.

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There is a limit on planes.  People who don't play CVs don't think there is, but there is.  The total number of planes they have available in a match, based on regen, is approximately the total hangar size they had in the RTS version.

 

Of your four suggestions only the fourth is at all realistic (not historical realistic, but has a realistic shot at being a solution) or viable.

Edited by Helstrem
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3 minutes ago, stronk_like_bear said:

The core problem with CV gameplay is a lack of any type of pvp element in CV interactions.

They don't attack each other, but rather just prey on ships the entire game. Surface ships can only hope their AA takes out enough so they don't get the strike off, and even then shooting down planes doesn't stop the CV from sending more squads as they don't run out of planes. There is no way to even hurt the CV. So it's a simple predator/prey interaction with the majority of players being prey. And feeling like prey when you want to pvp is driving people away from the game.

There must be a cost and risk to attacking. Without it, there will always be the predator/prey dynamic instead of pvp.

So what are some possible solutions?

  • There must be a limit on planes. All other ships have a limit on health, and planes are essentially the health of the CV.
  • Each plane shot down can lower the health of the CV by a percentage of planes it started with. Example: With 50 planes in hangar, if you shoot down 25 the CV loses half health.
  • Add an option to not enter CV matches. This would quite quickly show who likes the CV state as it is. It might also stop people from leaving the game due to the CV problem.
  • Make fighters more useful to encourage CV vs CV play and encourage a friendly CV to protect his fleet. Taking CV health with planes shot down (above) would greatly encourage this.
     

I'm sure this will get lots of the usual flames, but most people realize there is a serious problem here.

 

 

Some DDs only prey on other ships, their torps can only hit certain ships, therefore they don't fight each other. Your entire viewpoint is flawed because a ship sitting in the back of the map just spamming torps at everything is the same. You are hunting the CV, its just that your route is blocked by their entire team and they have the range to hit you while out of range. The same thing can be said with BBs who can stay in the back and shoot lit targets who don't have the range to hit them back. 

 

If you limit planes, they need massively increased damage, so now a CV can hit you with 2 torps and sink you, if you're ok with that, then limit planes. 

If we are given an option to avoid CVs, I want an option to avoid DDs. 

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I do not think there is much hope.  Sometimes I play warplanes and think, with just a few core issues addressed this game could have been a success. 

Pre-rework carriers were few and far between and the game was growing.  I do not believe WG is unaware how much carriers have hurt the game.  I think it's more of the authority is spread out in terms of developing this game and nobody has the ability to remove them (or is willing to make such a drastic change).  It's almost like just accept it and pretend it's not so bad.  I believe had they been removed when refunds were issued, the game would be in a much better place.  Now subs?  I just hope I can still play clan battles without carriers and subs.

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With one CV, it's never been much of a problem.    Sure, if you're a DD (in the standard areas the planes always find you) or a bote that's off on their own.

But in a cruiser or BB?  The planes are like mosquito bites.   Do you ever freak out when a cruiser shoots HE at your BB?   Well, maybe after you have four fires set.   But generally, you shrug it off.   When you realize the cruiser has much more impact to hurt you than a plane does, it's hard to see why people still freak out over planes.     I do respect T10 CVs, as they can whollup a punch.   But so can every other ship at T10.

If you want to talk two or three CVs per side, then yeah... I'd prefer a hard limit to 1.

 

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3 minutes ago, Slumlord_Dasboot said:

 

 

Some DDs only prey on other ships, their torps can only hit certain ships, therefore they don't fight each other. Your entire viewpoint is flawed because a ship sitting in the back of the map just spamming torps at everything is the same. You are hunting the CV, its just that your route is blocked by their entire team and they have the range to hit you while out of range. The same thing can be said with BBs who can stay in the back and shoot lit targets who don't have the range to hit them back. 

 

If you limit planes, they need massively increased damage, so now a CV can hit you with 2 torps and sink you, if you're ok with that, then limit planes. 

If we are given an option to avoid CVs, I want an option to avoid DDs. 

You are turning a blind eye to the truth. A dd risks the most out of any class, their survival rate is the lowest.  You are comparing apples to oranges.

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1 minute ago, Slumlord_Dasboot said:

Same OP has not played a single CV game since the rework, topic ignored. 

Some of us don't find farming damage for free, all the while hiding far away, appealing.  A CV player selects targets that cannot counter so they can farm damage safely.  That just is the opposite of what most people play this game for. 

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1 minute ago, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

You are turning a blind eye to the truth. A dd risks the most out of any class, their survival rate is the lowest.  You are comparing apples to oranges.

A DD has the most impact on a match and most of the time DDs decide the match. 

 

CVs are not a issue, the issue is that people don't like playing against them because it changes the meta. They don't want to hold back, they don't want to travel in AA packs, they want to play the game as if the CV is not there and when they do and get punished for it they get mad. 

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From a DD point of view:

Limit CVs to one CV per side in all tiers.

They are somewhat avoidable in ranked by queue watching, but they will ruin your day in a DD and really don't belong in ranked. It's unfun.

Do not ever bring CVs into clan battles. If you do that's the beginning of the end of clan battles.

Implement the slaughter rule in randoms when it's 1 CV against five or more enemy ships. The whole trying to chase the CV thing for 5-6 minutes thing when the game is not in doubt is silly. And it happens ALL THE TIME. Gee, I wonder why?

Subs are going to be a real joy. DDs will have to counter multiple things simultaneously. Oh, WG...

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4 minutes ago, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

Some of us don't find farming damage for free, all the while hiding far away, appealing.  A CV player selects targets that cannot counter so they can farm damage safely.  That just is the opposite of what most people play this game for. 

 

 

They can't select you if you are traveling in AA packs. This is certainly the case at  higher teirs, I had a match yesterday in my Graf where I could barely get any damage because the enemy team was grouped up and there were no good targets to select unless I went across the map where no one is fighting to attack the lone BB sailing out of position. Since I want to impact the match, spot, and help my team I had to select targets near AA defense which resulted in massive loss of planes. 

 

The fact is people don't want to defend against CVs, they don't like having to group up tight, it makes gun fights harder,  changes the meta, and they can't adapt so they cry about CVs. Positioning is the hardest skill to learn in this game, its why you see BBs on your team push up into 3-4 BBs on the enemy team when they should of retreated. 

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3 minutes ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

From a DD point of view:

Limit CVs to one CV per side in all tiers.

They are somewhat avoidable in ranked by queue watching, but they will ruin your day in a DD and really don't belong in ranked. It's unfun.

Do not ever bring CVs into clan battles. If you do that's the beginning of the end of clan battles.

Implement the slaughter rule in randoms when it's 1 CV against five or more enemy ships. The whole trying to chase the CV thing for 5-6 minutes thing when the game is not in doubt is silly. And it happens ALL THE TIME. Gee, I wonder why?

Subs are going to be a real joy. DDs will have to counter multiple things simultaneously. Oh, WG...

 

 

CVs are part of the game and should not be left out, its time they were added to clans. 

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17 minutes ago, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

I do not think there is much hope.  Sometimes I play warplanes and think, with just a few core issues addressed this game could have been a success. 

Pre-rework carriers were few and far between and the game was growing.  I do not believe WG is unaware how much carriers have hurt the game.  I think it's more of the authority is spread out in terms of developing this game and nobody has the ability to remove them (or is willing to make such a drastic change).  It's almost like just accept it and pretend it's not so bad.  I believe had they been removed when refunds were issued, the game would be in a much better place.  Now subs?  I just hope I can still play clan battles without carriers and subs.

el oh el  ....This patently untrue..... Pre 8.0 it had been in a steady decline for a number of years.  That tide has stemmed currently and actually a pretty stable playerbase is occuring over last 6 months or so.  No way to determine what is driving that?     I love how easy "Facts" get strewn about.     

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> they are limited
> so... how each sheel from each class on the game will going reduce the hp from the ship how shoot it too?
> Not going happens, same as  ask for no bb/dd/cl
> the game is not designer the one cv be able to stop the enemy cv, they did that in the rts that was one reason for thee rework

"cost and risk to attacking" go play some cv if are no risks.

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It's very clear that some either don't have a clue or just want to complain about a class of ship they don't play or understand. EVERY ships has it's role in the battle. Most don't play their ship correctly to begin with. Most Pubs are ran as a individual rather than as a team which is just one of the reason's most battles go one way or another. HE spam is more out of control with smoke than CV. I have seen more kills by spamming HE in  smoke at safe distance where CV torp damage is a joke compared to a DD and the bomb drop are horrible most of the time. The rockets due more damage with some decent accuracy.

What you have here is no different than the same mentality that came from WOT about Artillery. 

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21 minutes ago, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

Some of us don't find farming damage for free, all the while hiding far away, appealing.  A CV player selects targets that cannot counter so they can farm damage safely.  That just is the opposite of what most people play this game for. 

That is what WG wants from the class.

The RTS carrier captains werent playing to farm damage...they were playing to help the team win. But WG didnt like the CVs being focused on providing air superiority, team scouting, and focusing on the enemy carrier.

So, the rework happened...primarily to FORCE damage farming. Heck, the removal of strafes from tiers 4 and 5, the removal of USN AS loadouts, etc...were all designed to force a damage farming meta.

This rework is what WG WANTS. Dont blame the carrier captains...its not what we wanted at all.

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29 minutes ago, Slumlord_Dasboot said:

Same OP has not played a single CV game since the rework, topic ignored. 

Yea this pretty much says it all.

I don't even take any Anti CV post seriously unless the OP has at least 100 matches in a CV.

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24 minutes ago, stronk_like_bear said:

They don't attack each other, but rather just prey on ships the entire game. Surface ships can only hope their AA takes out enough so they don't get the strike off, and even then shooting down planes doesn't stop the CV from sending more squads as they don't run out of planes. There is no way to even hurt the CV. So it's a simple predator/prey interaction with the majority of players being prey. And feeling like prey when you want to pvp is driving people away from the game.

There must be a cost and risk to attacking. Without it, there will always be the predator/prey dynamic instead of pvp.

1. There is nothing stopping CV v CV attacks except players choosing not to do so. 

2. Every other ship type preys on every enemy ship every battle whether a CV is present or not.

3. DDs, CL/CAs, BBs and even CVs can thwart aerial attacks by grouping together as a task force for combined AA coverage. The foolishness of players not doing this is not the CV players fault nor does it have anything to do with CV play in particular. The same tactic would also interdict most DD torpedo attacks. 

4. CVs can run out of planes quickly by pressing foolish attacks resulting in follow on attacks having less than full strength squadrons just the same as the pre rework CVs. They are also rendered nearly useless since they can no longer use combined torpedo and bomb attacks while also interdicting the enemy CVs strikes with fighters.

5. CVs most certainly can be hurt just the same as before the rework by aerial attacks and gunnery. If players choose not to make such attacks is their choice and no fault of the CVs.

6. Every ship on both teams is prey to one another not just the CV.

7. Prove that CVs are driving people away from the game. I seriously doubt that you will be able to do so.

8. CVs suffer the cost/risk in attacking as every other ship. Losing torp/bomb/rocket planes is no different than losing AA mounts, torpedo tubes, Secondary and Main Battery turrets.

Hopefully WG will return CVs to their pre rework state so sniveling whiners will truly have something to whine about and/or be driven to rage quit whimpering all the way home. 

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51 minutes ago, stronk_like_bear said:

The core problem with CV gameplay

Why don't you play a hundred games in reworked CVs before you comment so that you can see them from both sides?

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50 minutes ago, stronk_like_bear said:

There must be a limit on planes. All other ships have a limit on health, and planes are essentially the health of the CV.

No, they're not at all.

 

51 minutes ago, stronk_like_bear said:

Each plane shot down can lower the health of the CV by a percentage of planes it started with.

Would you lower the health of a dd for every torp it shot, or BB for shell it fired?

 

52 minutes ago, stronk_like_bear said:

There must be a cost and risk to attacking.

Like for the dd torping from concealment? Or the Mino/smolly firing from smoke? Or for that Des Moines firing over a rock?

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Please don’t waste our time with suggestions for changes to gameplay elements that you don’t have a proper understanding of.

Edited by SkaerKrow
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51 minutes ago, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

Some of us don't find farming damage for free, all the while hiding far away, appealing.  A CV player selects targets that cannot counter so they can farm damage safely.  That just is the opposite of what most people play this game for. 

What do you mean they can't "counter"?

let's see, ships can group up and support each other with overlapping AA zones, ships can dodge, ships can prioritize AA sectors, use islands to cover one side from torpedos, ships can use defensive AA consumable, ships can use catapult fighter consumable and some ships can just absorb the damage.

People need to think of their AA as the equivalent of Armor vs Shells. If a CA fires 12 HE shells on a BB and 10 shells shatter one shell penetrates and the last shell starts a fire, No BB captain is going to complain. Yet for the CA captain, this would probably be very disappointing.

So when a CV is sending a squad of 9 TB at a ship and the ships AA shoots down 4 planes during the course of the squadron's attack then the ship is able to dodge as well so lets say of the 5 planes that survive the AA, 2 planes miss the target so out of 9 planes 3 are able to hit the target for pretty much LOL damage. 

I think the thing that most people hate about CV is the Idea that they cant fire BACK at the CV.

 Boo Hoo, the CV gives up massive Alpha Damage in return as well as very long "CD" (long flight times of Planes to target) and this mechanic is the same for DDs only for DDs still get decent to massive Alpha Damage should their Torps find their target. 

I would be ok with giving CV a Massive detection range BUT only if they were given a much much better Alpha Strike.

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20 minutes ago, CaptChico said:

Yea this pretty much says it all.

I don't even take any Anti CV post seriously unless the OP has at least 100 matches in a CV.

I'd honestly even accept something along the lines of "I tried a few matches, but it wasn't for me." At least then he actually knows how it works as a minimum. And, as T4, he now realized T4 CVs have no way to protect the team, and thus at the very least won't be one of those people that demand something they'll never get all match.

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