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Mouse / Lert AA testing (AKA: If you hate carriers ... )

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This morning @LittleWhiteMouse asked me to help her with some testing. For her upcoming Friesland review she wanted to do some field tests of her Enterprise vs my Friesland. We did several rounds, including a 'freeform' / 'realistic gameplay' one where the only brief she gave me was 'try to sink me'.

Here is the replay of what happened.

Unfortunately I was still half asleep and neglected to get a post battle result screen before closing my client, but the basic gist of it is, she got some good damage on me but in the end I found her and sunk her while eating many of her planes.

Some thoughts:

  • If you're a T8 carrier, just stay away from a Friesland. Especially one who knows how and when to priority sector and DFAA better than me.
  • If you're a T10 carrier, it'll still cost you, greatly.
  • She had her rocket planes spec'd up, and they were the biggest threat to me. Torpedoes are clumsy and relatively easy to dodge, AP bombs just go through doing minimal damage but rocket planes will get you.
  • My Friesland is all-round spec, so she could be even scarier if you fully AA spec her.
  • Despite the rocket hits she got on me, she didn't kill any of my 40mm /70 mounts this round, unlike previous rounds. Luck? RNG? Friesland only has 6 of those mounts, so losing one or two cuts in to the AA DPS pretty significantly.

My Friesland spec:

B2V5yms.jpg

 

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Little known fact:  Friesland is a better AA platform than Atlanta or Flint and outside of 2km ranges, is hands-down superior to Cleveland and Baltimore as well.

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Of it concludes

  • AA DEF is broken
  • AA has no structure in its application
  • The current AA system is broken beyond repair
  • No structure as the what ship class receives AA based on ship role or favoritism from the powers at be... 

Then let it serve as further evidence of how %90 of the CV is not working properly.

Big thanks to

.@Lert and his assistant @LittleWhiteMouse

Edited by Navalpride33
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1 minute ago, Navalpride33 said:

Of it concludes

  • AA DEF is broken
  • AA has no structure in its application
  • The current AA system is broken beyond repair
  • No structure as the what ship class receives AA based on ship role... 

Then let it serve as further evidence of how %90 of the CV is not working properly.

Big thanks to

.@Lert and his assistant @LittleWhiteMouse

I said many months ago that AA firepower needs to be considered in the following tiers:

  • Top Tier AA:  AA is capable of preventing an attack run, wiping out all aircraft in a squadron before or as they're launching ordnance.
  • "Good" AA:  AA isn't capable of preventing an attack run from a full strength squadron.  However, they will destroy most, if not all of the aircraft in the squadron.
  • "Average" AA:  AA isn't capable of preventing an attack run from a full strength squadron.  AA will cause a few casualties -- up to one flight's worth.
  • "Poor" AA:  AA isn't capable of preventing an attack run from a full strength squadron.  AA is largely incapable of causing any casualties.

A lot of people are hung up that if they're not capable of preventing an attack, their AA is functionally useless which just isn't realistic.  Friesland sits in the "Good" AA category, btw.

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3 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I said many months ago that AA firepower needs to be considered in the following tiers:

  • Top Tier AA:  AA is capable of preventing an attack run, wiping out all aircraft in a squadron before or as they're launching ordnance.
  • "Good" AA:  AA isn't capable of preventing an attack run from a full strength squadron.  However, they will destroy most, if not all of the aircraft in the squadron.
  • "Average" AA:  AA isn't capable of preventing an attack run from a full strength squadron.  AA will cause a few casualties -- up to one flight's worth.
  • "Poor" AA:  AA isn't capable of preventing an attack run from a full strength squadron.  AA is largely incapable of causing any casualties.

A lot of people are hung up that if they're not capable of preventing an attack, their AA is functionally useless which just isn't realistic.  Friesland sits in the "Good" AA category, btw.

People get angry when one little IJN rocket does chip damage on their precious BB.

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1 minute ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

A lot of people are hung up that if they're not capable of preventing an attack, their AA is functionally useless which just isn't realistic.  Friesland sits in the "Good" AA category, btw.

IMO, when it comes to AA.... The low end (non existent) AA ships need something to defend themselves with...

Its borderline suppression for some ships that already have limited capabilities to boot. That is a "challenge" for some, for others its not a challenge. If the ship has limited options to work with, plane harassment is a rage inducing element added on... That element should be relieved...

Nice work LWM...

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Just now, Navalpride33 said:

IMO, when it comes to AA.... The low end (non existent) AA ships need something to defend themselves with...

Its borderline suppression for some ships that already have limited capabilities to boot. That is a "challenge" for some, for others its not a challenge. If the ship has limited options to work with, plane harassment is a rage inducing element added on... That element should be relieved...

Nice work LWM...

If you watch CV gameplay (which can be hella dull, I admit -- fun to play, boring to watch), you'll see that carrier players gravitate towards the "poor" AA targets.  Lone ships (usually IJN battleships) and destroyers are their favourite prey for an obvious reason:  It doesn't cost them more than a play or two to pick on these targets.  Thus, their attack runs are infinitely sustainable.  Once they start poking "average" threats, the losses start mounting, albeit slowly.  If the CV in question has two different types of competitive attack squadrons, then this too is infinitely sustainable as they alternate between the two. 

It's getting caught out twice by a "good" AA ball that makes CV lives Hell. I stress that this must happen twice before there's any appreciable impact on the CV's performance.

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19 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

 

A lot of people are hung up that if they're not capable of preventing an attack, their AA is functionally useless which just isn't realistic.  Friesland sits in the "Good" AA category, btw.

Just want to chime in on this point right before I sleep:  At least at a decently high level of play with friends and div'ing with some solidly dark purple CV captains, its no surprise people want the "Top Tier AA" or else they deem it to be trash.  Against a skilled CV player, unless the DD has a heal or burns a smoke charge he/she will easily lose 30-50%  if they are caught out alone.  In my (Awful) experience in ranked, this is truly a common sight. What this means is the DD player is faced with two options-- Stick with their team and not spot/screen/cap very much or eventually be eaten.  When she does pop said smoke when not being near allied AA... her tactical decision-making process is fairly limited.

This is not all too surprising why you hear such loud anger at CVs from the DD playerbase.  Citing from another thread, you said CVs attract "that sort of player" ones that want to make a heavy impact...  I believe not only are you correct, but this plays into why when the CV is good, it brings out this notion it needs to be top-tier AA:  These CV players were once top DD players, and they understand DD positioning and how to hunt them.  This probably lends to an even greater impact on their hunting and limiting of the entire DD class as a whole's impact.

As for everyone else, well... If its a Hakuryu flying around with AP DBs, well... if you're in a cruiser like Des Moines, I suppose I'd like someone reading this thread to tell me with a straight face that you don't want the ability to thwart their attack squadron in their entirety-- Because if you don't, be prepared to eat 15-20Kish drops in a single pass that you can't heal very well to boot.

The mindset of human beings dictates that we remember the negative much more vividly than the positive-- And in a game mode like ranked or just in general, the stark contrast of how much your face gets punched in by a class that needs nobody else to perform well in a team-based game starts to make sense.  

But yes, I hate AA effectiveness as of now.  This testing won't change that idea in my head, and on a lighter note... I love my Friesland.

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50 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Little known fact:  Friesland is a better AA platform than Atlanta or Flint and outside of 2km ranges, is hands-down superior to Cleveland and Baltimore as well.

 I believe the best AA thing going right now

Too bad this is really it's strong point, it's really a meh bote.

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26 minutes ago, CaliburxZero said:

This is not all too surprising why you hear such loud anger at CVs from the DD playerbase. 

Most destroyers just don't have enough AA to be anything other than "average" at best.  There are a few exceptions, but they are a notable few.  By and large, destroyers are a safe target for CVs because their AA is so pathetic that the carrier can afford to make multiple runs (at least two and often with every attack flight in the squadron).  Couple this with destroyers voluntarily isolating themselves, mismanaging their AA, throwing away their concealment and the monstrous-effectiveness of American HVAR rockets (Tims are also good), and yeah, it's no wonder destroyers are having a bad time. 

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57 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Little known fact:  Friesland is a better AA platform than Atlanta or Flint and outside of 2km ranges, is hands-down superior to Cleveland and Baltimore as well.

What values do you look at to know if it’s a great AA platform or crappy?

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56 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Little known fact:  Friesland is a better AA platform than Atlanta or Flint and outside of 2km ranges, is hands-down superior to Cleveland and Baltimore as well.

That actually makes sense, considering it is a Cold War-era ship with 10 years of improved development compared to those WWII era cruisers.

4 minutes ago, NoLoveForPhatShips said:

 Too bad this is really it's strong point, it's really a meh bote.

Never, know, this may change with the introduction of subs into the game.  Her strength may end up being in ASW gameplay, considering her lack of torpedoes.

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2 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

What values do you look at to know if it’s a great AA platform or crappy?

Range combined with sustained DPS compared to the hit points/speed of aircraft within their tier.  Being able to generate 5 or more flak clouds (stock) is a plus too.

-Edit- Note that the values in port have to be multiplied by their accuracy value.  So 200dps with an 85% accuracy = 170dps.  Lower accuracy means slower rates of fire.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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I don't think anyone will be surprised at these results with Friesland's AA, by now I'd have thought most active players would be aware of how powerful Friesland's AA is. (Fortunately not all, or playing Friesland would be much less fun).

Several dds, since the rework and the AA changes this past year, have less well known but comparably powerful AA that can comfortably shred same tier CV squadrons. (Akizuki, for example, at tier 8). 

Final thought, according to recently released official statistics (as shared by Zath) on games with CVs present, tier 9 random battles have a very low chance of seeing a CV, which is kind of annoying for Fries owners.

 

On 11/27/2019 at 8:11 PM, enderland07 said:
Battle tier 0CV 2CV 4CV 6CV
4 21% 16.17% 47.46% 15.36%
5 27.64% 37.41% 33.47% 1.48%
6 23.27% 49.61% 26.94%  
7 60% 35.37% 4.62%  
8 12.52% 70.97% 16.75%  
9 73.91% 25.35% 0.72%  
10 39.07% 60.71% 0.22%  

 

Courtesy of @Lord_Zath this represents the number of games at each tier with the given number of CVs.

Some interesting data, that's for sure.

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Honestly, I just wish that, if you knock out a plane on an attack run, the attack run would continue without that plane instead of a new one magically diving in mid-run to drop it's payload. That would make all the difference to me, IMO. Kinda frustrating to have my Texas shoot down 3 planes in an attack run and still get hit, instead of stopping THAT run. The CV would have more planes to try again, but would have to come around and try the attack.

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1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:
  • Top Tier AA:  AA is capable of preventing an attack run, wiping out all aircraft in a squadron before or as they're launching ordnance.
  • "Good" AA:  AA isn't capable of preventing an attack run from a full strength squadron.  However, they will destroy most, if not all of the aircraft in the squadron.
  • "Average" AA:  AA isn't capable of preventing an attack run from a full strength squadron.  AA will cause a few casualties -- up to one flight's worth.
  • "Poor" AA:  AA isn't capable of preventing an attack run from a full strength squadron.  AA is largely incapable of causing any casualties.

A lot of people are hung up that if they're not capable of preventing an attack, their AA is functionally useless which just isn't realistic.  Friesland sits in the "Good" AA category, btw.

I beg to differ, My Friesland is more than capable of wiping out a full strength air squadron (no survivors) without a single bomb/torp/rocket being dropped/fired. Captain spec, flags and ship set up notwithstanding. And not just occasionally. Fries is without a doubt, according to your own definition, top tier AA (as she should be).

edit : versus tier 8 CV of course

Edited by LoveBote

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11 minutes ago, Sergeant_0ddball said:

Honestly, I just wish that, if you knock out a plane on an attack run, the attack run would continue without that plane instead of a new one magically diving in mid-run to drop it's payload. That would make all the difference to me, IMO. Kinda frustrating to have my Texas shoot down 3 planes in an attack run and still get hit, instead of stopping THAT run. The CV would have more planes to try again, but would have to come around and try the attack.

I hear you.  However, they'd need to retool the whole AA system to do this -- not because programming it would be difficult,but because if implemented as-is, far too many ships could prevent drops entirely.  Implementing something like this could be possible -- increasing the hit points of planes somewhat, reducing hangar regeneration / capacity, etc.  I personally wish that players could see how many aircraft a carrier had on hand and that Wargaming would differentiate between shooting down fighters / spotter aircraft and carrier attack planes like bombers, rockets and torpedo bombers.  That way people could get a better sense of how much damage they're actually doing to a carrier.

It's one thing to know you shot down twelve "planes".  It's another to know that you have all but gutted their ability to deploy torpedo bombers, for example.

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Thanks for all the work that went into testing.

The issue with the Friesland is as follows:

1.) Its AA power is beast, and could be considered *T10* equivalent in effectiveness or better. When there is a CV present in the match, the Friesland is a good asset to have.

2.) Unfortunately the rest of the ships strengths are of T8 and even arguable Tier 7 equivalent power at best. No torpedoes already completely guts a potential deterrence and multiple available tactics that can be skillfully utilized by ships with torpedoes. The guns are fore+aft, so despite 360 traversing, and only having 2 of them, lowers the ships effective targets without a 1/4 base HE pen bonus and better weapon ballistics (e.g. needs better velocity, base range, and accuracy). If WG  does not give the Friesland an offensive capability buff, it should at the very least be given More HP and zombie healing similar to the neustrashimy

Edited by Varknyn12
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3 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I hear you.  However, they'd need to retool the whole AA system to do this -- not because programming it would be difficult,but because if implemented as-is, far too many ships could prevent drops entirely.  Implementing something like this could be possible -- increasing the hit points of planes somewhat, reducing hangar regeneration / capacity, etc.  I personally wish that players could see how many aircraft a carrier had on hand and that Wargaming would differentiate between shooting down fighters / spotter aircraft and carrier attack planes like bombers, rockets and torpedo bombers.  That way people could get a better sense of how much damage they're actually doing to a carrier.

It's one thing to know you shot down twelve "planes".  It's another to know that you have all but gutted their ability to deploy torpedo bombers, for example.

Agreed on that last point.

Changing to stop a new plane dropping in would also make a fighter consumable a little more useful. It's one thing to see "X planes shot down by fighter", but not know if they were shot down after the drop or before, because you still got hit by a full-strength run unless the squad started out understrength

 

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26 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Range combined with sustained DPS compared to the hit points/speed of aircraft within their tier.  Being able to generate 5 or more flak clouds (stock) is a plus too.

-Edit- Note that the values in port have to be multiplied by their accuracy value.  So 200dps with an 85% accuracy = 170dps.  Lower accuracy means slower rates of fire.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I have been hearing DFAA is a useless consumable to platforms like DM and Woos. 
 

thanks for responding, trying to figure this AA mess out.

Edited by Legio_X_

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Just now, Sergeant_0ddball said:

Agreed on that last point.

Changing to stop a new plane dropping in would also make a fighter consumable a little more useful. It's one thing to see "X planes shot down by fighter", but not know if they were shot down after the drop or before, because you still got hit by a full-strength run unless the squad started out understrength

I've put a lot of time into carriers recently (mostly tier 6 for a pending Ark Royal review).  Fighters work.  Like everything in the AA system currently, they're miserable to use and don't provide any fun feedback when they're deployed, leaving you with this sense of "ho-hum, what's the point?".  As a carrier player, I HATE running into fighters.  They're guaranteed casualties that I don't want to have to recover from.  I make it a point to avoid fighters whenever possible, provided they were deployed on time.  If you're launching them when I'm coming in for an attack run, that's already too late.

2 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I have been hearing DFAA is a useless consumable to platforms like DM and Woos.

thanks for responding, trying to figure this AA mess out.

Defensive AA Fire is still good, it's just nowhere near as good as it used to be.  DFAA used to double your effective AA DPS for large and medium caliber AA guns as well as cause the disruption effect on attack planes.  Destroyers tripled their AA power.  Hood simply pulverized any planes that slipped within her rocket-range (which was hilarious).  Now DFAA merely adds 50% to your DPS.  A 50% bonus isn't enough to turn the typical "average" AA to "good" AA, or turn "good" AA into a complete no-fly zone.  it's only if your ship was already flirting with those values that DFAA will now tip the scales.

DFAA works exactly as advertised and it's decent, but it's not so good that I'd take it over Hydroacoustic Search on a lot of my ships.  Unless I have an AA monster on my hands, DFAA isn't worth it.

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4 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

trying to figure this AA mess out.

It's easy. Don't play any poor AA ships, unless you find it fun and engaging to derp around in the middle of a blob.

Otherwise, just sell all the bad AA botes and put the credits into AA mods and consumables.

Frees up an awful lot of port slots too...

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2 minutes ago, otakuben said:

I found out the hard way the Friesland eats planes like corn flakes.

I was going to pass on the Friesland, but now I want it. :Smile_teethhappy:

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