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Dmal

Something needs changing

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I have tried my best to give this cv rework a fair chance. However, I have to say something needs to change. I don't play cvs, personally im just not a fan of their playstyle so I play cruisers, destroyers, and battleships. I have started to notice a similar problem as to before the rework. If you aren't given an attentive friendly cv, you are screwed if they have one that knows what they are doing. doesn't matter if its bottom tier. They can keep dds spotted. Wreck dds and cruisers with rocket planes. They don't care about AA whatsoever. Defensive fire is a joke. I took my kidd out recently, a well known destroyer for its AA abilities, and I was constantly harrased by a same tier cv taking out 4k chunks with rocket planes while my defensive fire was up and my AA directed in the correct direction.  AA cruisers feel like a joke because they don't have enough AA range to cover allies and they usually are rather squishy so they don't want to caught out in the open and they probably aren't going to pushing into caps. I don't even want to get started on BBs and trying to counter cvs.

 

Let me rather talk about changes that i think should be implemented to make life better for everyone. The first change i would make is putting a limited range on aircraft. I don't know about other people but i have been in many matches where the cv just sits in the back unspotted the whole match and they managed to win it because no one has seen them in the first place. They simply don't risk their ship. In pre-rework a cv had to be a bit mindful about their planes as they could all be shot down.  Now they have practically an infinite number of planes so you can't rely on deplaning them so they have nothing to really lose by losing a whole squadron except for a couple minute wait time while they bring out other planes.

 

They need to risk something and I think it should be their ship just like every other ship in the game. The second thing i would change would be to give defensive fire its dispersion capabilities back. This way it has some value to the team. Right now i would take any other consumable over defensive fire because it simply doesn't do much for me or my allies. Im curious as to what other people think of what i have written and if anyone has any other suggestions

Edited by Dmal
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2 minutes ago, Dmal said:

I have tried my best to give this cv rework a fair chance. However, I have to say something needs to change. I don't play cvs, personally im just not a fan of their playstyle so I play cruisers, destroyers, and battleships. I have started to notice a similar problem as to before the rework. If you aren't given an attentive friendly cv, you are screwed if they have one that knows what they are doing. doesn't matter if its bottom tier. They can keep dds spotted. Wreck dds and cruisers with rocket planes. They don't care about AA whatsoever. Defensive fire is a joke. I took my kidd out recently, a well known destroyer for its AA abilities, and I was constantly harrased by a same tier cv taking out 4k chunks with rocket planes while my defensive fire was up and my AA directed in the correct direction.  AA cruisers feel like a joke because they don't have enough AA range to cover allies and they usually are rather squishy so they don't want to caught out in the open and they probably aren't going to pushing into caps. I don't even want to get started on BBs and trying to counter cvs. Let me rather talk about changes that i think should be implemented to make life better for everyone. The first change i would make is putting a limited range on aircraft. I don't know about other people but i have been in many matches where the cv just sits in the back unspotted the whole match and they managed to win it because no one has seen them in the first place. They simply don't risk their ship. In pre-rework a cv had to be a bit mindful about their planes as they could all be shot down.  Now they have practically an infinite number of planes so you can't rely on deplaning them so they have nothing to really lose by losing a whole squadron except for a couple minute wait time while they bring out other planes. They need to risk something and I think it should be their ship just like every other ship in the game. The second thing i would change would be to give defensive fire its dispersion capabilities back. This way it has some value to the team. Right now i would take any other consumable over defensive fire because it simply doesn't do much for me or my allies. Im curious as to what other people think of what i have written and if anyone has any other suggestions

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I guess the overall theme about my rant on CVs is that I feel like there is no counter play that I can do as a single player

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24 minutes ago, Dmal said:

I guess the overall theme about my rant on CVs is that I feel like there is no counter play that I can do as a single player

The counter play is to kill their planes which does vary with different ships.

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Just using dfaa and sector on a Kidd isnt going to be an issue for a good CV player. You have to abuse your low detection with the aa off and use it at the right moment causing them to miss the initial pass. Then as they head out to turn for another pass. You turn it off to go dark and maneuver in such a way they have to guess where you are likely causing another miss. If you can also keep yourself near the flak range of a friendly ship you can often get them to hit some flak puffs.

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And the problem with that is that as soon as a plane is chunked out, another one immediately takes its place without any action or care on the CV player's part. You only have two, three, four planes fire at a time, but you're facing the entire squadron. Ships like DDs simply can't defend themselves and are just relegated to being food.

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On 11/30/2019 at 12:39 PM, Dmal said:

I guess the overall theme about my rant on CVs is that I feel like there is no counter play that I can do as a single player

In many ships, namely almost every DD, there is zero counter to a CV that targets you.  That's broken meta.  The fact that a single player can dictate your entire game, and often the game outcome for the other 23 players, is WOW idiocy at its finest.

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DEF AA is not a joke my Cleveland wipes the entire squadron, if anything AA needs a nerf as CV is the only class in game which damage can be fully negated.

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On 12/1/2019 at 9:27 AM, Dmal said:

I don't play cvs

And thats the problem 99% of the people raging about how OP cv's are people that don't play them. The only thing people remember about cv's that don't play them is been killed by one, so of course that's going to leave a negative impact on you.

As a DD main and someone that plays cv's too the only thing that is OP about cv's is the ease of spotting they have and dealing with dd's.

Low tier cv's are a joke because ships in low tier have no AA, High tier cv's is hard work getting your damage in. Some games you can't make a impact in the game depending on the ships you face or if the teams bunch up.

Unless you play cv's you will never no how challenging it is to make an impact on a game.

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14 hours ago, EraserNZ1 said:

And thats the problem 99% of the people raging about how OP cv's are people that don't play them. The only thing people remember about cv's that don't play them is been killed by one, so of course that's going to leave a negative impact on you.

As a DD main and someone that plays cv's too the only thing that is OP about cv's is the ease of spotting they have and dealing with dd's.

Low tier cv's are a joke because ships in low tier have no AA, High tier cv's is hard work getting your damage in. Some games you can't make a impact in the game depending on the ships you face or if the teams bunch up.

Unless you play cv's you will never no how challenging it is to make an impact on a game.

Low tier CV is seal clubbing, but even then it's death from a thousand cuts. AA has 1-2 flak bursts, so at most you deal with 3-5 max even when attacking clusters of ships. AA DPS is limited to maybe 10-50 per ship, so you'll always get an attack in if not more.

 

Tier 8+ ships have 5-9 bursts, so enough to fill your screen, changing speed is the only way to dodge flak under these conditions. Overlapping flak will wipe your entire squadron with nothing the CV player can do about it. AA DPS runs in 300-700+ per individual ship so overlapping fields will provide 1-2k per second. Even at tier 10 with legendary mod, Midway DB only has about 35k HP in their entire squadron, so anywhere from 16-30 seconds from just staying in the auras alone for the entire squad to be lost. Add in flak bursts while lining up attacks, you trade 9-12 planes for 1 attack run. The change from flak burst damage to continuous AA was a bad one, makes it so that player skill doesn't even matter as you're guaranteed to lose HP regardless.

Hence why high tier CV get "de-planed" frequently. It doesn't happen at low tier. AA is ridiculously powerful at tier 8+ but far too weak at tier <6.

 

The biggest problem isn't the strength of AA, however, it's the spotting distances of planes vs ships. Planes are spotted before almost anything but battleships and carriers. That's pretty absurd that even large cruisers can evade detection from aircraft because pilots are apparently blind. With AA ships like Wooster/Mino, they are spotted when they light you up with their entire flak spread, by then you've lost at least 1-4 planes maybe more before you can even turn away. Of course this change was due to DD players whining about being bullied by CV - funny how they don't cry foul when they're able to attack every other class with impunity beyond spotting distance (but that's another story). Reverting the air spotting distances would do much to help the state of CV - at least, it would allow CV to spot and avoid AA heavy clusters without losing half a squadron (that takes 1 minute her plane respawn) to find out. It would also allow CV to plan attacks rather than being purely reactionary - or rely on other ships to spot.

 

To go from map control/vision/alpha strike to this pseudo back line DoT class that's even worse than BB sniping state is sad.

 

 

Edited by reaper_swpz
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On 11/30/2019 at 3:27 PM, Dmal said:

Something needs changing
By Dmal, November 30, 2019 in Aircraft Carriers

Yes.  You need to learn to play better.

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56 minutes ago, reaper_swpz said:

Hence why high tier CV get "de-planed" frequently. It doesn't happen at low tier. AA is ridiculously powerful at tier 8+ but far too weak at tier <6.

I have played alot of games in cvs and have never been deplaned to the point i can not launch enough for a strike plus spares.

Only cv i have found that i have played that i have struggled with after changes is the midway and i think thats down to the nerfed state of the torp planes (I love hitting 6 torps on a T10 BB and only getting 11-12k damage and losing planes for that little damage).

My stats in cv's, I have been mostly playing kaga these days and enjoy it alot avg 100k and can have a impact on most games i play.

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6 minutes ago, EraserNZ1 said:

I have played alot of games in cvs and have never been deplaned to the point i can not launch enough for a strike plus spares.

Only cv i have found that i have played that i have struggled with after changes is the midway and i think thats down to the nerfed state of the torp planes (I love hitting 6 torps on a T10 BB and only getting 11-12k damage and losing planes for that little damage).

My stats in cv's, I have been mostly playing kaga these days and enjoy it alot avg 100k and can have a impact on most games i play.

Capture.JPG

Interesting. I'm regularly deplaned in Midway even with legendary mod. Going after say a single gearing or whatever not  with DB, lose an entire squad's worth to take him out.

My RTS stats were far superior to the current ones. The removal of cross dropping makes it near impossible to hit non potato players.

IJN CV are more resistant to the deplaning issue, probably because with TB attacks you're in AA less and out faster where as with DB you're in AA a lot longer and have no option to drop at range.

 

 

Edited by reaper_swpz

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Carriers hide far away and prey on ships that cannot counter them.  I mean it is the definition of a failed implementation.  Surface ships are fighting PvP, planes are fighting PvE.  Most of how you will fare against planes is decided before the match begins.  Clan battles is the only place left to not have to play against them.

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5 minutes ago, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

Carriers hide far away and prey on ships that cannot counter them.  I mean it is the definition of a failed implementation.  Surface ships are fighting PvP, planes are fighting PvE.  Most of how you will fare against planes is decided before the match begins.  Clan battles is the only place left to not have to play against them.

Every ship is fighting every ship.  It is merely that the methods vary.

Plenty of ships can shoot at a CV from the other side of a map.  Others charge towards a CV and hit it with gunfire or torpedoes.

CV's that play too far from the 'action' face the logistic hurdle of flight-time from the CV to the target, which reduces the CV's effectiveness.

CV's that "get too close" find their hulls redecorated with unfinished portholes, or even glass-bottoms-without-the-glass-installed.

Don't be jealous.  Go get yer own, and play it long enough and well enough to purchase the next tier CV, eh?

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2 hours ago, 0NutsNBolts0 said:

Carriers hide far away and prey on ships that cannot counter them.  I mean it is the definition of a failed implementation.  Surface ships are fighting PvP, planes are fighting PvE.  Most of how you will fare against planes is decided before the match begins.  Clan battles is the only place left to not have to play against them. 

You just have to look at real life CV's ended the era of capital ships, Its going to be almost impossible to balance cv's because of the freedom they have with flying planes so fast around the map vs ships that are slow as hell. In high tiers when the ships are grouped up its so so hard to have any impact in the game (making the cv's feel useless and under powered) then you have games where enemy ships are all out by them selves and you can nail them and cv's seem OP.

The main problems with cv's for me is been attacked multiple times and knowing in 40-50 secs its going to happen again (this just feels bad) as i dd and see a cv in the match knowing a cv can hunt and destroy any chance of me having a good game if they choose to just feels bad.

When they implemented cv's the mistakes i think they made were

  1. Having such large squads so if you found that weak AA ship you could attack them multiple times per squad (even as a cv player in a t8 cv striking a t6 bb 4 times feels bad)
  2. Having the freedom to sit anywhere on the map and still be effective

What i would do if i made decisions at WG

  1. I would make the squads of planes a lot smaller 2 strikes worth and adjust the damage to comp that
  2. I would make it so there is a rearming time after using a type of planes (to stop the spam of one type vs one ship)
  3. i would make it so carriers had a operational range so they would have to move into the side of the map they wanted to support
  • bringing them closer to the action
  • allowing ships to avoid the flank with the cv on it (i do this in dd's where i find to much radar)

Put it this way as i DD main i would be very happy if wg removed cv's from the game. As this will never happen you have to adapt and find a way of having fun in the game or stop playing... for me its been playing the kaga it allows me to have some fun in the game when I'm sick of playing dd's because of cv's...

 

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I would not change anything, don't play CVs but miss them when not in a match. I like shooting down planes, lots of planes! If you want to play a DD play a Friesland, monster AA, can deplane a CV all by itself. Massachusetts also does a good job, last game I got the AA reward in it and took very little damage against a t10 CV. I use a fighter with her. Our friendly CV was great, had a cyclone the entire match and kept ships spotted pretty well so I had something to shoot at most of the time. One CV per side is near perfect for me. I do appreciate a good CV player, more so when he is a friendly LOL!

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There is rocket planes.  Then, please give all DD's and Cruisers an AA buff.  I enjoy Cruisers and DD's.  Rocket planes kill half my HP in one strafe.  Not to mention knocking out my drives, guns and torps.  By the time the battle really gets going, I've used all my repairs and are at the whim of every ship on the map.  First in, first to die.  I'm not going to hide...it does no good against strafing.  My point is, there has to be a buff in AA against rocket planes and all the extra squadrons these CV's have.  It's really taking the fun and balance out of the battle.

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20 hours ago, TEXAS_VLAD_THE_IMPALER said:

There is rocket planes.  Then, please give all DD's and Cruisers an AA buff.  I enjoy Cruisers and DD's.  Rocket planes kill half my HP in one strafe.  Not to mention knocking out my drives, guns and torps.  By the time the battle really gets going, I've used all my repairs and are at the whim of every ship on the map.  First in, first to die.  I'm not going to hide...it does no good against strafing.  My point is, there has to be a buff in AA against rocket planes and all the extra squadrons these CV's have.  It's really taking the fun and balance out of the battle.

I still laugh that people think WOW cares about making the game better and more balanced.  Cash grabs is all WOW care about.  Introduce new ships dopes will spend money on.  Change the meta so dopes spend money to "adjust".  Rinse.  Repeat.

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On 1/7/2020 at 2:50 PM, Frigate007 said:

I would not change anything, don't play CVs but miss them when not in a match. I like shooting down planes, lots of planes! If you want to play a DD play a Friesland, monster AA, can deplane a CV all by itself. Massachusetts also does a good job, last game I got the AA reward in it and took very little damage against a t10 CV. I use a fighter with her. Our friendly CV was great, had a cyclone the entire match and kept ships spotted pretty well so I had something to shoot at most of the time. One CV per side is near perfect for me. I do appreciate a good CV player, more so when he is a friendly LOL!

That is one of the worst ideas I've heard:  "If you want to play DDs, play this ONE DD (out of almost 100 available)" .  Oh, and that's one that's only achievable to maybe 5% of the population.  Moreover, a Friesland is still fodder for a T10 CV rocket plane attack.  Sure, it will kill the entire squad, but you can't afford to be taking 10k per squadron damage, and that's what they'll do.

If you took little damage in a T8 BB, then that CV was incompetent or more likely, wasn't even trying to hit you, and was focusing on someone else in the area. No T8 BB, no matter the AA, can survive even a mediocre T10 CV paying attention to them.  

Edited by LAnybody
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2 hours ago, LAnybody said:

That is one of the worst ideas I've heard:  "If you want to play DDs, play this ONE DD (out of almost 100 available)" .  Oh, and that's one that's only achievable to maybe 5% of the population.  Moreover, a Friesland is still fodder for a T10 CV rocket plane attack.  Sure, it will kill the entire squad, but you can't afford to be taking 10k per squadron damage, and that's what they'll do.

If you took little damage in a T8 BB, then that CV was incompetent or more likely, wasn't even trying to hit you, and was focusing on someone else in the area. No T8 BB, no matter the AA, can survive even a mediocre T10 CV paying attention to them.  

In my Mass I have been focused on by a CV entire match, shot down over 70 planes and survived. Seen a Friesland do something like 130 to 140. I strongly disagree with your statement. You just have to learn how to play against CVs and different types of planes. And Friesland is available to everyone, you can earn it or buy it. I actively hunt planes when I'm playing her.

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In random battles if I see 6 or 8 carriers in the game I just suicide -- it stops being fun for me. In terms of using carriers,  I want my fighters back so I make the choice to escort strikes or defend the bird farm. Now, I mostly play co-op (not my first choice) because of the changes to how carriers are played.

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On 1/6/2020 at 5:15 PM, reaper_swpz said:

Interesting. I'm regularly deplaned in Midway even with legendary mod. Going after say a single gearing or whatever not  with DB, lose an entire squad's worth to take him out.

My RTS stats were far superior to the current ones. The removal of cross dropping makes it near impossible to hit non potato players.

IJN CV are more resistant to the deplaning issue, probably because with TB attacks you're in AA less and out faster where as with DB you're in AA a lot longer and have no option to drop at range.

 

 

But you can cross drop. Line up a torp run from a ways out, let them turn and make a crossing run on them and its quite effective

 

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On 11/30/2019 at 2:27 PM, Dmal said:

I have tried my best to give this cv rework a fair chance. However, I have to say something needs to change. I don't play cvs, personally im just not a fan of their playstyle so I play cruisers, destroyers, and battleships. I have started to notice a similar problem as to before the rework. If you aren't given an attentive friendly cv, you are screwed if they have one that knows what they are doing. doesn't matter if its bottom tier. They can keep dds spotted. Wreck dds and cruisers with rocket planes. They don't care about AA whatsoever. Defensive fire is a joke. I took my kidd out recently, a well known destroyer for its AA abilities, and I was constantly harrased by a same tier cv taking out 4k chunks with rocket planes while my defensive fire was up and my AA directed in the correct direction.  AA cruisers feel like a joke because they don't have enough AA range to cover allies and they usually are rather squishy so they don't want to caught out in the open and they probably aren't going to pushing into caps. I don't even want to get started on BBs and trying to counter cvs.

 

Let me rather talk about changes that i think should be implemented to make life better for everyone. The first change i would make is putting a limited range on aircraft. I don't know about other people but i have been in many matches where the cv just sits in the back unspotted the whole match and they managed to win it because no one has seen them in the first place. They simply don't risk their ship. In pre-rework a cv had to be a bit mindful about their planes as they could all be shot down.  Now they have practically an infinite number of planes so you can't rely on deplaning them so they have nothing to really lose by losing a whole squadron except for a couple minute wait time while they bring out other planes.

 

They need to risk something and I think it should be their ship just like every other ship in the game. The second thing i would change would be to give defensive fire its dispersion capabilities back. This way it has some value to the team. Right now i would take any other consumable over defensive fire because it simply doesn't do much for me or my allies. Im curious as to what other people think of what i have written and if anyone has any other suggestions

 

Perhaps you should go actually grind out one of the CV lines to tier 10. THEN you can come back here and talk about how "easy" they have it. Also, stop perpetuating this "infinite planes" bull crap. They're not infinite and anyone who can do both basic math AND has a basic concept of time would f***ing know that.

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In the random games I've played CV's rarely do that well. 50% have no kills, 40% might have 1 or 2, and 10% might get 3. Never seen a CV do a kraken other than YouTube replay, though I have seen 4 kills a couple of times. While I am for sure not a great player, CVs don't bother me as much as other classes of ships when playing a cruiser or BB. Don't have many games using a DD in random but so far I have been able to avoid planes if I want to for the most part.

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