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HorrorRoach

Smoke firing detection radius

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If you shoot your guns, then smoke up..If a ship (DD with good concealment) is undetected in that radius, you'll remain spotted.

Why? Smoke enveloping your ship should obscure you. This caveat seems to screw over Italian croozers the most, almost making the smoke a detriment in certain cases. If an enemy DD is 7km from you, undetected, you shoot THEN pop your smoke... Now you're blind and the DD can shoot you for 20s if you can't kite past your smoke firing radius (like 7.8km for italian 203's). You had no way of knowing your smoke would be pointless. If the DD stays undetected, you don't even know which direction to run to get unspotted, meanwhile all the BB's and railgun cruisers sending shells your way.

Something doesn't seem right about that, I'm fine with you stayed detected if you shoot after turning the smoke on. But if you shoot, then smoke up... There has to be a middle ground where the enemy get a dispersion penalty or something. Or maybe lower the bloom time to 10s or something.

 

EJ

Edited by HorrorRoach

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Smoke should break line of sight, resetting the gun bloom, any further shooting within smoke should be detectable by ships with in the smoke firing detection radius.  This is the only way I see the mechanic working correctly.  I need to spend some time in the training room, but it would not surprise me to see this broken in the game.  

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46 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Smoke should break line of sight, resetting the gun bloom, any further shooting within smoke should be detectable by ships with in the smoke firing detection radius.  This is the only way I see the mechanic working correctly.  I need to spend some time in the training room, but it would not surprise me to see this broken in the game.  

Let me know what you find, please.  I want to incorporate the effects of the new 2sec rule into the wiki but I'm not sure how it works with smoke.  Since smoke does break LoS, it would seem that firing outside, then ducking into smoke would reduce detection to 2sec from entering, and firing from smoke would always cause detect for no more than 2sec (other detection methods aside).  But that seems like a much bigger change than WG intended.

There's a new Smoke Screens article, btw.  Check it out.

 

Edited by iDuckman

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I made a clip. It'll be SD until it's done processing. Looks like I had the normal bloom, it lasted 20s. Was it the plane or something? I know the Mass was in my smoke firing radius, but I smoked after I shot at the Amalfi.

 

 Might sti

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Aircraft don't detect at all if you're in smoke.  Note the time countdown under the detection marker.  I didn't see when it set, but it was more than 2s.  I'll wait for the HD version to check again.

The shells that killed you were launched well before you went undetected, and possibly before you smoked.

 

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your detection in smoke only go totaly dark if you are not shooting (if you shoot its depends in what ship you are, dds get around 3~4km cls 5~8km).

Sinse you pop smoke and shoot the enemy was in your detection radius

you only get dark after the cooldown of shooting pass but the enemy alread shot it.

image.png.694b54d322d81d8f7e9f6e40ebc5279a.png

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Not sure if it's a consequence of the current system or not but, I've noticed something i had never really realized before while using my Amalfi.

 

If a DD is in smoke within my smoke firing range (about 8.3km) and I shoot at him (or anything else) he will still spot me, within my smoke, from inside his. (this is taking into account that there's NOTHING else within my smoke firing radius, only the DD in smoke)

And yet in this case instead of applying the 2 second rule of no line of sight, since, technically speaking, I have no line of sight to him, yet he can detect me after I shoot, it still counts the entire 20 sec gun bloom cooldown.

Note this is taking into account that I was already in concealment before popping my smoke (so i have the regular 2km assured detection) and i'm not in a cooldown going into my own smoke.

I just find this to be a strange interaction that kind of goes against the whole 2 sec line of sight rule. 

Edited by Saidalphon
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20 minutes ago, KHyena said:

your detection in smoke only go totaly dark if you are not shooting (if you shoot its depends in what ship you are, dds get around 3~4km cls 5~8km).

Sinse you pop smoke and shoot the enemy was in your detection radius

you only get dark after the cooldown of shooting pass but the enemy alread shot it.

image.png.694b54d322d81d8f7e9f6e40ebc5279a.png

I know, but i smoked AFTER i shot... Why would the smoke radius apply to something that happened in the past? I did not shoot while in the smoke....

 

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2 hours ago, HorrorRoach said:

If you shoot your guns, then smoke up..If a ship (DD with good concealment) is undetected in that radius, you'll remain spotted.

Why? Smoke enveloping your ship should obscure you. This caveat seems to screw over Italian croozers the most, almost making the smoke a detriment in certain cases. If an enemy DD is 7km from you, undetected, you shoot THEN pop your smoke... Now you're blind and the DD can smoke up (or not if nothing else can spot him) and shoot you for 20s if you can't kite past your smoke firing radius (like 7.8km for italian 203's). You had no way of knowing your smoke would be pointless. If the DD stays undetected, you don't even know which direction to run to get unspotted, meanwhile all the BB's and railgun cruisers sending shells your way.

Something doesn't seem right about that, I'm fine with you stayed detected if you shoot after turning the smoke on. But if you shoot, then smoke up... There has to be a middle ground where the enemy get a dispersion penalty or something. Or maybe lower the bloom time to 10s or something.

 

EJ

If the DD smokes, he can't see you unless someone else is spotting you.

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Aircraft don't detect at all if you're in smoke.  Note the time countdown under the detection marker.  I didn't see when it set, but it was more than 2s.  I'll wait for the HD version to check again.

The shells that killed you were launched well before you went undetected, and possibly before you smoked.

 

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1 hour ago, HorrorRoach said:

I know, but i smoked AFTER i shot... Why would the smoke radius apply to something that happened in the past? I did not shoot while in the smoke....

The case of a ship being detected from gun bloom, then ducking into smoke is addressed in the How It Works: Spotting Pt 2 video: https://youtu.be/g71WA4NANDw?t=240.  It is still spotted for the remaining 20 sec, but its detection radius decreases to its firing-in-smoke radius.  If the spotting ship is no longer within detection range, does that cause it to lose detect, possibly after 2sec?  I don't know.

 

1 hour ago, Saidalphon said:

If a DD is in smoke within my smoke firing range (about 8.3km) and I shoot at him (or anything else) he will still spot me, within my smoke, from inside his. (this is taking into account that there's NOTHING else within my smoke firing radius, only the DD in smoke)

And yet in this case instead of applying the 2 second rule of no line of sight, since, technically speaking, I have no line of sight to him, yet he can detect me after I shoot, it still counts the entire 20 sec gun bloom cooldown.

The special case of two ships in smoke fire-detecting each other is addressed in the Spotting video: https://youtu.be/g71WA4NANDw?t=210 (the second case, at about 3:40).

The thing is, these videos were made before the rule change...

 

Edited by iDuckman

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1 hour ago, HorrorRoach said:

I know, but i smoked AFTER i shot... Why would the smoke radius apply to something that happened in the past? I did not shoot while in the smoke....

Because the cooldown [20s] + he still in your detection range if you shoot in smoke so the cooldown keep count.

 

I will try explain better (sorry my english is not the best)

Situation 1: You shoot and smoke with the enemy inside your 7~8km det radius*: you will be spotted

Situation 2: You shoot and smoke with the enemy outside your 7~8km det radius*: you not will be spoted.

 

*detection radius firing inside an smoke

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2 hours ago, HorrorRoach said:

I made a clip. It'll be SD until it's done processing

 

  • 0:02 you are surface detected, not from firing.  The spotting ship (Mass.) is closing the distance so you remain within normal surface spotting range throughout.
  • 0:05 aircraft locator turns red, meaning they spotted you (I think) but your spotted indicator doesn't change since you're still surface spotted.
  • 0:07 Targeting count (3) - Mass., red Amalfi, planes?  I think those are the only three that can see you.
  • 0:14 You fire and a 20 sec timer appears, probably because new ships (probably Gadja Mahda) can see you.  Targeting count (3) does not change. 
  • 0:18 you pop smoke (timer at 15? I can't read it).  Mass. is within your 8.7km smoke firing detection range.  Amalfi is not.  Planes still overhead.
  • 0:30 Targeting count decreases to (2).
  • 0:34 timer expires; you go undetected.  (even though there are aircraft overhead)
  • 0:37 Shells from red Amalfi.  BOOM.

Obviously, the 2 sec rule is not in play here.  I wonder why not?  Because Mass is still within your spotting radius?  That kinda makes sense.

0:34 is doubly interesting because you also get hit by aircraft while in smoke.  Aircraft locator disappears, presumably because you can no longer see them.  I was under the impression that aircraft are just SOL when you're in smoke, but clearly they can still shoot you if you're spotted by something else.  wiki update!

 

 

Edited by iDuckman
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36 minutes ago, KHyena said:

Because the cooldown [20s] + he still in your detection range if you shoot in smoke so the cooldown keep count.

 

I will try explain better (sorry my english is not the best)

Situation 1: You shoot and smoke inside the 7~8km det radius*: you will be spotted

Situation 2: You shoot and smoke outside the 7~8km det radius*: you not will be spoted.

 

*detection radius firing inside an smoke

I know that, but the smoke is supposed to conceal you if you pop it after shooting... didn't you read what Destroyer_Kuro said further up the thread? He knows what he's talking about.

Edited by HorrorRoach

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14 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

Destroyer_Kuro said further up the thread? He knows what he's talking about.

I think he's wrong as far as detection previously obtained.  The video seems to confirm it.  I don't see the 2 sec rule applying in the example.

However, there are several twists here.  We can't tell if the ships that spotted him only due to gun bloom actually lost detect when he entered smoke, or what would happen if the closest ship was outside his smoke firing range when he popped smoke. 

 

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1 hour ago, iDuckman said:

The special case of two ships in smoke fire-detecting each other is addressed in the Spotting video: https://youtu.be/g71WA4NANDw?t=210 (the second case, at about 3:40).

The thing is, these videos were made before the rule change...

Well that certainly answers my question, here's a snip from the video in case anyone wants to see the interaction.

Capture.PNG.b6683edf210baf370d00bcbccad23b1d.PNG

Still though, if one where to scrutinize this sort of case again, would it make sense under the new detection rules?

Like perhaps make it so that you're only detected for 5 or 10 seconds instead of the full 20, since you're still in smoke, which would technically disrupt the view of even the other ship in smoke.

Of course this is assuming that there is NOTHING else within your smoke firing bloom.

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If you smoke up AFTER firing (and are detected), then the detect count down will continue (you will remain detected) if the enemy is within your smoke bloom radius from the prior shot.

If you smoke up AFTER firing (and are detected), you will become unspotted if the detecting enemy is not within your smoke bloom radius from the prior shot.

I believe (but have not confirmed that) in the latter case, once you become unspotted the countdown ends for that shot; it does not continue to count (in the background) and reactivate detection if a red enters the bloom radius during the count interval.

 

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5 hours ago, HorrorRoach said:

almost making the smoke a detriment in certain cases. If an enemy DD is 7km from you, undetected, you shoot THEN pop your smoke... Now you're blind and the DD can shoot you for 20s if you can't kite past your smoke firing radius (like 7.8km for italian 203's). You had no way of knowing your smoke would be pointless. If the DD stays undetected, you don't even know which direction to run to get unspotted, meanwhile all the BB's and railgun cruisers sending shells your way.

Sounds correct to me.

 

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