Japanese Matsu class mini-destoryers

[Daltron]

I call these mini destroyers because they were basically half the size of any other destroyer the Japanese fielded in WWII. They're really classified as just destroyers.

 

 

http://www.combinedf...com/matsu01.jpg

 

These were being designed around 1942-43, and by this point the Japanese were starting to realize how unlikely a surface battle was. They'd more likely be pounded by an uber-hax MLG pro 'in ur base pwning ur d00dz' air or submarine attack than meeting other battleships.

 

With that in mind, they designed the Matsu class as sort of a light destroyer, having only three 5'' guns, with a significantly bigger proportion of main-to-AA-gun. Meaning, whereas a Kagero might have six guns for every four 25mm guns (as built), this class would have three 5'' guns with twenty-four 25mm guns. Which is a giant increase. Also, along the 'lol screw surface combat' theory, this class had a significantly decreased torpedo suite.

 

Also, they had a large depth charge armament. They could make a reasonable speed of 27.4 knots, which was more or less fast enough to keep up with any unit she was designated to protect.

 

At first these ships were built like any other, traditionally, from the keel up. Also, they were more detailed than what was to come.

 

As the war progressed, however, the Japanese were like 'NO WE HAS NO MATERIELS TO MAKE THE SHIPS WITH'. Not trying to make a racist joke by saying that. The result was that the next class was built modularly (think Liberty ships) with a single bottom, transom stern, and downgraded sonar. An upside was that the new class was fitted with thirty-nine 25mm guns in an attempt to trololo some American aircraft.

 

Unfortunately, the 25mm has the serious drawback of 'lol I'm out of bullets, better get a new magazine n00bs your life depends on it'. Which sucked because the RoF, which would normally be great, was now crappy because they had to stop firing and get a new mag. Also, the powder used made TONS of smoke, so any camo would be negated the instant you opened fire.

 

For example, the Bofors had an open-topped chute where you just put in a new clip so the firing never stops, presenting a mild 'screw you' to any approaching enemy plane.

 

The later ships were outfitted to be Kaiten carriers. For you uber-noobs who don't know what a Kaiten is, it's an ultra-mecha-Gigan torpedo that has a human driver, and while very morbid and sad for the pilot, was awesome at ripping open holes in enemy ships and making their liquefied innards pour out of every orifice on their hulls. If they hit.

 

Half of those planned were cancelled, half of those completed were sunk, and the other half completed were auctioned off to the UK, Russia, China, the US, and the JNSDF.

 

 

These ships are surprisingly useful in Axis and Allies as long as they aren't shooting at ships.

 

 

Characteristics from Wikipedia I'm lazy don't hate wanna fight about it?

 

Built: 1943–1945

In commission: 1944–1971

Planned: 42 (1943, Ship #5481-5522),

                32 (1944, Ship #4801-4832),

                80 (1945, Kai-Tachinaba class)

Completed: 18 (Matsu class),

                     14 (Tachibana class)

Cancelled: 122

Lost: 10

Retired: 22 + 1 (JDS Wakaba)

 

Displacement: 1,260 tons standard

                          1,530 tons in battle condition

Length: 100.0 m (328 ft 1 in) overall,

               92.15 m (302 ft 4 in) waterline

Beam: 9.35 m (30 ft 8 in)

Draft: 3.30 m (10 ft 10 in)

Propulsion: 2 × Kampon water tube boilers,

                     2 × Kampon impulse geared[1] turbines, 19,000 shp (14 MW)

                     2 shafts

Speed: 27.8 knots (32.0 mph; 51.5 km/h)

Range: 3,500 nmi (6,500 km) at 18 kn (21 mph; 33 km/h)

Complement: 211

Sensors and processing systems: 1 × Type 93 active sonar,

                                                            1 × Type 93 hydrophone

Electronic warfare & decoys: 1 × 22-Gō surface search radar (wavelength 10 cm)

 

Armament: (Matsu, April 1944)

                               3 × 127 mm (5.0 in) L/40 Type 89 AA guns (1×2, 1×1)[2]

                               24 × 25 mm (1") Type 96 AA guns (4×3, 12×1)[2]

                               4 × 610 mm (24 in) Type 92 torpedo tubes (1×4)

                               4 × [2] Type 93 torpedoes

                               4 depth charge throwers[2]

                               36 × Type 2 depth charges[3]

                   (Take, March 1945)

                               3 × 127 mm (5.0 in) L/40 Type 89 AA guns (1×2, 1×1)

                               39 × 25 mm (1") Type 96 AA guns (4×3, 27×1)

                               4 × 610 mm (24 in) Type 92 torpedo tubes (1×4)

                               4 × Type 93 torpedoes

                               4 depth charge throwers

                               48 × Type 2 depth charges

[Jager_Panther1]

they would make good AA ships in game, but crap at almost everything else

[Daltron]

Jager_Panther1, on 27 January 2013 - 03:20 AM, said:

they would make good AA ships in game, but crap at almost everything else

Exactly. I would say sub-hunter but then I'd have to shout at myself READ THE FAQ N00B!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!1!!!!!one!!!!!!

Be an interesting teir 2 ship though. Maybe- MAYBE- premium.

[NGTM_1R]

They're almost DEs, but they've got one more gun, more AA firepower, and of course Japanese torpedoes. (In addition to being 50-70 feet longer.)

 

The Kaiten concept was actually pretty bad in practice, they had no depth control worth a damn, so while they could make multiple runs on target it's generally believed that Kaitens usually missed shots a regular torpedo would make because they ran under.

[Daltron]

NGTM_1R, on 27 January 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

They're almost DEs, but they've got one more gun, more AA firepower, and of course Japanese torpedoes. (In addition to being 50-70 feet longer.)

The Kaiten concept was actually pretty bad in practice, they had no depth control worth a damn, so while they could make multiple runs on target it's generally believed that Kaitens usually missed shots a regular torpedo would make because they ran under.

'If they hit' lol

[Haguro]

IJN Take assisted the IJN Harukaze in sinking the USS Shark (SS-314).  Later the IJN Take and Kuwa were engaged in convoy duty in Ormoc Bay.  They were engaged by USS ALLEN M. SUMNER (DD-692), USS COOPER (DD-695) and USS MOALE (DD-693) with the Take torpedoing and sinking the USS COOPER.  The USN destroyers sank the Kuwa with gunfire and badly damaged the Take (returned to base on one engine).  This may have been the last surface vessel sunk by a 'long lance'.

IJN Take

Painting of Kuwa under fire from 3 USN DDs

http://www.dd-692.co...1940/kappes.jpg

USS Cooper

USS Shark

http://lh4.ggpht.com....jpg?imgmax=800

[Wunderwaffen1945]

Reminds me on little kuma class cruisers

[admarillstonewall]

Neat

[admarillstonewall]

Very cool

[Daltron]

admarillstonewall, on 02 June 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

Very cool

Do you just do this on every post?

[MM2ss]

Nah, some of them he responded with "No" or just "Cool" (omitting the very).

[brian333]

Gotta love torpedo turrets you can reload in battle and open deck gun mounts with splinter shields

[Skygunner]

What....are you talking about.  Please never make a post like this again.  Ever.

 

 

People,  the Matsu's  and following Tachibana class were the Japanese attempt to continue wartime production of necessicary ships at greatly reduced costs.  Perhaps it was his attempts at humor but realize that much of what Daltron is saying isn't quite right.

 

For starters,  Japan never gave up on the idea of surface engagement.  In fact it was sorta japanese naval doctrine to have a final showdown of sorts with the USN.  A key pin moment where the entire IJN fights to the death with Allied forces.   This event ended up being Leyte gulf which went less than stellar for the Japanese...but that's neither here nor there.

 

It had been accepted late 1942 that replacements would be needed for wartime loss,  most major navies accounted that they would be losing ships.  The Matsu and follow on Tachibana classes (Tachibana really just even more simplified matsu's) were designed for rapid construction.  Their primary role was escort.  By 1944 when these ships entered service japan was playing an almost purely defensive war.   Submarines were beyond a nuisance and any ship that left port without a destroyer escort was nearly guaranteed dead,  but even then the escort often meant little. In this light the Matsu is often classed as an Escort Destroyer (logical),  some other lights shed it as a "Torpedo Boat".  I personally would rank it with "escort destroyer"  if only for their low speed.

 

Rembering that the idea was a smaller hull (to save on material and speed up production) the design is very compact.  Originally there was to be a sextuple torpedo mount amidships,  but this was dropped in favor of the existing quad mount.  The 5in/40 was a rather standard AA gun of Japan at the time and adequate for the job,  and of course the standard japanese light AA was equipped in large numbers.

 

As he isn't very clear about it in his post,  the Japanese 25mm was not the best gun.   It was loaded with a magazine that held 15 rounds.   So even though it came in a quad mounting,  the frequency of reloaidng killed its RoF.   It lacked range, and it lacked a punch,  as such it was only good for close in defense from aircraft attacking the ship.   If there is 1 good quality of it,  then it's that its very light weight and small size meant that the sheer volume of them that could be mounted was absurd.   Even on such a small ship like Matsu 24 if them fit.  Now mind you, the crews for the quad mount vere very large so really the only limitation of how many guns a ship could take was just as much about crew space below deck, as it was mounting space on deck.

 

 

Note the top loading 15-round magazine.  

 

 

********clip from  Otokotachi no Yamato,  a film (that I found pretty lame because of a stupid love story, but amazing form the partial reconstructed yamato as a set)  who's protagonist was a gunner on a 25mm mount during Yamatos sinking.   It shows the 25mm in action,  rather well,   Notice it is hand cranked,  manually aimed, and constantly being reloaded.  as well as how large the crews are manning them.   And yes,  the film also depicts Yamato bringing down aircraft with her 18.1in sanshikidan shells.   The sandbags are for added protection,  as the gun crews were immensely vulnerable to splinter and strafing.

 

oh dear I rambled.  Right Matsu.  Really not much more to say on them really.  Japan was rather up a particular creek without a particular propulsion device toward the end,  and although things such as the Matsu class were a step in the right direction (simple to build ships with good enough fire power)  the true problems were ones that no ship,  no matter how well designed,  could solve.

[UncleDaddy]

Thanks Skygunner!  I too have noticed Daltron's posts to give quiet a bit of misinformation, im not sure where he copy/pastes his info from.

[Daltron]

UncleDaddy, on 02 June 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

Thanks Skygunner!  I too have noticed Daltron's posts to give quiet a bit of misinformation, im not sure where he copy/pastes his info from.

I don't copy paste a single thing besides the actual statistics of the ship (length, beam, armament stats), I type it out by hand based loosely on the timeline of the ships Wiki page while throwing in information I've studied since I was nine.

Skygunner, on 02 June 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

What....are you talking about.  Please never make a post like this again.  Ever.


People,  the Matsu's  and following Tachibana class were the Japanese attempt to continue wartime production of necessicary ships at greatly reduced costs.  Perhaps it was his attempts at humor but realize that much of what Daltron is saying isn't quite right.

For starters,  Japan never gave up on the idea of surface engagement.  In fact it was sorta japanese naval doctrine to have a final showdown of sorts with the USN.  A key pin moment where the entire IJN fights to the death with Allied forces.   This event ended up being Leyte gulf which went less than stellar for the Japanese...but that's neither here nor there.

It had been accepted late 1942 that replacements would be needed for wartime loss,  most major navies accounted that they would be losing ships.  The Matsu and follow on Tachibana classes (Tachibana really just even more simplified matsu's) were designed for rapid construction.  Their primary role was escort.  By 1944 when these ships entered service japan was playing an almost purely defensive war.   Submarines were beyond a nuisance and any ship that left port without a destroyer escort was nearly guaranteed dead,  but even then the escort often meant little. In this light the Matsu is often classed as an Escort Destroyer (logical),  some other lights shed it as a "Torpedo Boat".  I personally would rank it with "escort destroyer"  if only for their low speed.

Rembering that the idea was a smaller hull (to save on material and speed up production) the design is very compact.  Originally there was to be a sextuple torpedo mount amidships,  but this was dropped in favor of the existing quad mount.  The 5in/40 was a rather standard AA gun of Japan at the time and adequate for the job,  and of course the standard japanese light AA was equipped in large numbers.

As he isn't very clear about it in his post,  the Japanese 25mm was not the best gun.   It was loaded with a magazine that held 15 rounds.   So even though it came in a quad mounting,  the frequency of reloaidng killed its RoF.   It lacked range, and it lacked a punch,  as such it was only good for close in defense from aircraft attacking the ship.   If there is 1 good quality of it,  then it's that its very light weight and small size meant that the sheer volume of them that could be mounted was absurd.   Even on such a small ship like Matsu 24 if them fit.  Now mind you, the crews for the quad mount vere very large so really the only limitation of how many guns a ship could take was just as much about crew space below deck, as it was mounting space on deck.



Note the top loading 15-round magazine.  

********clip from  Otokotachi no Yamato,  a film (that I found pretty lame because of a stupid love story, but amazing form the partial reconstructed yamato as a set)  who's protagonist was a gunner on a 25mm mount during Yamatos sinking.   It shows the 25mm in action,  rather well,   Notice it is hand cranked,  manually aimed, and constantly being reloaded.  as well as how large the crews are manning them.   And yes,  the film also depicts Yamato bringing down aircraft with her 18.1in sanshikidan shells.   The sandbags are for added protection,  as the gun crews were immensely vulnerable to splinter and strafing.

oh dear I rambled.  Right Matsu.  Really not much more to say on them really.  Japan was rather up a particular creek without a particular propulsion device toward the end,  and although things such as the Matsu class were a step in the right direction (simple to build ships with good enough fire power)  the true problems were ones that no ship,  no matter how well designed,  could solve.

I never said the 25mm was a great gun. Really, it was a load of bollocks, as you said. Every five seconds you had to reload a magazine, and that sucked especially in comparison to the Bofors which just had a chute you put more clips in. Also, the guns gave off extreme amounts of smoke, which means that any ship that shoots is now incredibly, and I do mean impossibly, hard to not see. Along with the points of large crew, no protection, and being hand cranked and it sucked. I just said in the post that they added more because more guns is better than less.

Also, they didn't have quad mounts lol

And I know that most of the Japanese high command still wanted an all out battle but a lot of the admirals realized that it was an impossibility, after Midway, the Marianas and especially Leyte Gulf.

[Gigaton]

Skygunner, on 02 June 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Otokotachi no Yamato,  a film (that I found pretty lame because of a stupid love story, but amazing form the partial reconstructed yamato as a set)  who's protagonist was a gunner on a 25mm mount during Yamatos sinking.   It shows the 25mm in action,  rather well,   Notice it is hand cranked,  manually aimed, and constantly being reloaded.  as well as how large the crews are manning them.   And yes,  the film also depicts Yamato bringing down aircraft with her 18.1in sanshikidan shells.   The sandbags are for added protection,  as the gun crews were immensely vulnerable to splinter and strafing.

There were actually few different control modes for the 25mm guns. The best was power control by RPC (only Japanese gun that ever had one), with the associated Type 95 MG Director which usually controlled 4-6 guns. Local control was still by hand-cranking, so power operation only applied if it was done remotely. It was rudimentary system, even outright backwards by late war but still better than nothing. This seems to have been common enough earlier on when, at least for the larger ships (CA/CVL upwards), there were decent numbers of MG directors around, but they seem to have been eventually diluted in a flood of wartime expedient construction. The locally controlled twins and triples could have a mechanical lead sight similar to that of the director's, or could just have an open sight. The single mount only had open sights.

Speaking of the Japanese MG Director, the main battery 5-in guns on Matsus were controlled with a Type 4 Director, a simplified derivative of the Type 95 Director. Japanese destroyers in general had more simple FCS (compared to US anyway, not unusual in other navies), but that tops it off.

[purufeido]

i love her names.

 

Matsu /Pine tree

Take/Bamboo

Ume/Japanese apricot

Momo/Peach

Kuwa /Mulberry

Kiri/Paulownia

Sugi/Cedar

Maki /Podocarpaceae

Momi/Abies firma

Kashi/Live oak

Yaezakura/Prunus verecunda Antiqua

Kaya/Torreya nucifera

ara /Oak

[yourheroo]

This would be a good ship to escort other ships with weaker AA.