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Formous

Does the Smol really need to be a Mino 2.0?

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Ive observed this ship for some time.  People here talk about how strong it's guns are, how it's thin armor is actually making it more tanky then it should be, and other things about the various tactics that are required to specifically bring this one ship down.  From a surface ship perspective, the Smol vastly over performs by all accounts I have observed and heard of.

But I am a CV player.  I don't often find myself being shot at by a Smol. Chances are, if a Smol is shooting at me, I would already be dead regardless if it was a smol or not.  However as time goes on, I have begun to notice a unsettling similarity between this ship and the Mino.  In nearly every conceivable way and effect, the Smol is a straight copy and potentially upgrade of the Mino.  Now I don't play a Mino, so I am collaborating my own interactions with both ships and a friend's account of the Mino here, so bear with me on inaccuracies.

The Smol seems to possess every strength you can imagine. It's got a thin profile, with a thin hide that actually causes near zero damage over-penetrations from AP shells.  I sense that the reason Smol is so hard to kill is that it simply can just phase out shells fired at it.  Were it's armor thickened, it would actually negatively affect its survivability.  It's got fast reloads, and is a volcano ship, with a high ability to burn down whatever soul is unfortunate enough to become it's target in a hail of HE.  According to my friend with his Mino, the Smol is now effectively taking a Mino's fire rate and HE fire power, and combining it with a thin armor to make it able to shrug off shells.  Maybe this is a exageration, maybe not, but it's of note.  However it doesn't end with the guns and armor.  The Smol has the same effective AA as the mino, if not even stronger.  In my early testing, I had initially gotten through a smol's AA with minimal issue, however I found that was due to other factors instead of bad AA.  In nearly every subsequent attack across multiple games, I have routinely found the automatic AA, never mind the O key, is so powerful that it's effectively a immune target to my CVs, regardless of nation.  USN in particular just can't hurt this ship.  The Tims can, but you lose whole squadrons before even really passing over the ship if nothing was to interrupt the AA's sight line. In fact, the AA is so deadly that sometimes the act of dodging the flak is more deadly then the flak itself, though I put a heavy emphasis on the 'sometimes' portion.  Flak is deadly regardless. 

So this has gotten me thinking. The Smol has every advantage of a ship post cv rework.  It's ignoring damage in many cases, it's murdering battleships, cruisers, and DDs with contemptible ease thanks to fire damage, and when all my allies can't do any significant damage, it's got a AA so powerful I can't even marginally risk striking it. Never mind actually defending myself against one getting too close.  (t10 is a mess for AA anyway, so this is moot in some respects).

I recognize that this ship is killable. Ive done it too myself with a few lucky hits.  But it requires over the top special tactics to bring down, which I can't really think of any other ship save Kremlin requiring.  In my examination, this ship is well suited to fight everything, and for a jack of all trades, it seems to top its class in each category.  A HE cruiser has a decent chance, but a BB will just over pen it in all ways, and a DD is butchered by it's guns. It can hide behind islands and volcano everything, and unless I use a Audacious, attacking it with my CV is suicide.  

Something's gotta give with this ship.  Increase it's armor and BBs will hurt it better.  Perhaps weaken its AA?  Lower it's fire rate? Smol needs a natural enemy. Pick a ship type WG that can do well against it.

Edited by Formous

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I never felt Minotaur was really that powerful and/or influential to gameplay. They aren't weak... they're just there (as, arguably, all ships should be) - really skilled players make them sing, potatoes get blapped in them.

The problem with Smolensk is that her highs are too high, and her lows are very low. The bad players are eradicated almost immediately without contributing anything, while the good ones tear apart matches with routine ease. I don't like seeing any Smolensk in a match for this reason - either someone's getting crushed, or their team is at a monumental disadvantage from the get-go.

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3 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_PrncsRoyal said:

I never felt Minotaur was really that powerful and/or influential to gameplay. They aren't weak... they're just there (as, arguably, all ships should be) - really skilled players make them sing, potatoes get blapped in them.

The problem with Smolensk is that her highs are too high, and her lows are very low. The bad players are eradicated almost immediately without contributing anything, while the good ones tear apart matches with routine ease. I don't like seeing any Smolensk in a match for this reason - either someone's getting crushed, or their team is at a monumental disadvantage from the get-go.

Mino is one of the largest threats on the board for a CV, so I often pay attention to them.  Which is why I find the Smol's AA so striking, as it's quite literally the same as the Mino's.  But the Smol has the advantage of not needing to hide to survive quite as much.  A Mino exposed is a dead Mino, but Smol seems to not have this issue whenever it's present.

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Well Minotaur with radar equipped is definitely no joke and one of the most fun experiences you can have at high tiers together with Goergia.

 

If you are playing Minotaur with smoke you are just doing it wrong, there is nothing exciting about spamming from a smokescreen, if you know how to use CLs properly you won't miss the smoke on Mino, wonderful maneuverability, best non-DD concealment, 16 torps that can be stealthed by a full kilometer and a superheal just in case the enemy focus you down.

Play it like a upsized DD, don't fire your guns unless you are in a good position and just focus on radaring enemy DDs and torpedo the enemy BBs for the first third of the match, once the enemies are not so grouped up, you start to shoot their broadsides at 11km or more to have enough time to dodge and enjoy the glorious British engenyaring at work.

 

I love playing Smolensk open water and never ever run out of smokes as I only use them purely for defense but Radartaur just does the job better specially thanks to the glorious stealth and the superheal with the torpedos as a very nice extra specially for retreating and literally being a upsized Benham

I have them both and even tho Smolensk is WAY for infuriating to play, I love Radartaur just a tad more, it's a glorious ship in all senses.

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I have both the Mino and the Smolensk.

The Smolensk is much MUCH easier to kill than the Mino. They Mino heal alone provides far more ability to sustain damage.

It's true that with the Smolensk, if you are broadside and close to a BB, you will often get overpens and negate much of the damage, but your engine and steering will very likely get knocked out. Plus, I've had more turrets destroyed in one game in the Smolensk than I have had turrets destroyed in all my Mino 350+ games.

The reason why the Smolensk is so powerful is that the shell arcs allow firing over islands yet still hit targets at 15K+ and the rate of fire almost guarantees you set a fire.

But the Smolensk is very reliant upon match making in the sense that a Smolensk wants to attack ships coming toward it, it's a very defensive ship in the sense that it operates better defending rather than attacking. Yes, a Smolensk will crush a DD if it is within the spotting range of the DD, but a Smolensk cannot hope to deal with any decent cross firing.

You can EASILY be deleted angled perfectly. Shells will simple crash threw your bow and stern and go directly into your citadel.  You need cover in a Smolensk even more than you need it in a Mino.

While both have torps, the torps on the Mino provide far more utility than those on the Smolensk.

Remember, that players always have a problem with ships the first six months when they come out because players are slow to adapt to changing game mechanics. A BB can't push into a hidden Smolensk, yet they try all the time still.

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1 hour ago, Formous said:

Ive observed this ship for some time.  People here talk about how strong it's guns are, how it's thin armor is actually making it more tanky then it should be, and other things about the various tactics that are required to specifically bring this one ship down.  From a surface ship perspective, the Smol vastly over performs by all accounts I have observed and heard of.

But I am a CV player.  I don't often find myself being shot at by a Smol. Chances are, if a Smol is shooting at me, I would already be dead regardless if it was a smol or not.  However as time goes on, I have begun to notice a unsettling similarity between this ship and the Mino.  In nearly every conceivable way and effect, the Smol is a straight copy and potentially upgrade of the Mino.  Now I don't play a Mino, so I am collaborating my own interactions with both ships and a friend's account of the Mino here, so bear with me on inaccuracies.

The Smol seems to possess every strength you can imagine. It's got a thin profile, with a thin hide that actually causes near zero damage over-penetrations from AP shells.  I sense that the reason Smol is so hard to kill is that it simply can just phase out shells fired at it.  Were it's armor thickened, it would actually negatively affect its survivability.  It's got fast reloads, and is a volcano ship, with a high ability to burn down whatever soul is unfortunate enough to become it's target in a hail of HE.  According to my friend with his Mino, the Smol is now effectively taking a Mino's fire rate and HE fire power, and combining it with a thin armor to make it able to shrug off shells.  Maybe this is a exageration, maybe not, but it's of note.  However it doesn't end with the guns and armor.  The Smol has the same effective AA as the mino, if not even stronger.  In my early testing, I had initially gotten through a smol's AA with minimal issue, however I found that was due to other factors instead of bad AA.  In nearly every subsequent attack across multiple games, I have routinely found the automatic AA, never mind the O key, is so powerful that it's effectively a immune target to my CVs, regardless of nation.  USN in particular just can't hurt this ship.  The Tims can, but you lose whole squadrons before even really passing over the ship if nothing was to interrupt the AA's sight line. In fact, the AA is so deadly that sometimes the act of dodging the flak is more deadly then the flak itself, though I put a heavy emphasis on the 'sometimes' portion.  Flak is deadly regardless. 

So this has gotten me thinking. The Smol has every advantage of a ship post cv rework.  It's ignoring damage in many cases, it's murdering battleships, cruisers, and DDs with contemptible ease thanks to fire damage, and when all my allies can't do any significant damage, it's got a AA so powerful I can't even marginally risk striking it. Never mind actually defending myself against one getting too close.  (t10 is a mess for AA anyway, so this is moot in some respects).

I recognize that this ship is killable. Ive done it too myself with a few lucky hits.  But it requires over the top special tactics to bring down, which I can't really think of any other ship save Kremlin requiring.  In my examination, this ship is well suited to fight everything, and for a jack of all trades, it seems to top its class in each category.  A HE cruiser has a decent chance, but a BB will just over pen it in all ways, and a DD is butchered by it's guns. It can hide behind islands and volcano everything, and unless I use a Audacious, attacking it with my CV is suicide.  

Something's gotta give with this ship.  Increase it's armor and BBs will hurt it better.  Perhaps weaken its AA?  Lower it's fire rate? Smol needs a natural enemy. Pick a ship type WG that can do well against it.

The Smolensk is an AA ship by design , same as Atlanta or Flint , it's supposed to eat planes for breakfast . The Smo is fragile , and unforgiving of mistakes , you'd know that if you had one . One thing I've noticed is people seem to forget basics for the sake of complaining , if AP isn't working on a ship due to it's angle , switch to HE regardless of what ship you're shooting at . Guess it's more fun to come on the forum and complain about a ship being unkillable . 

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32 minutes ago, retic1959 said:

The Smolensk is an AA ship by design , same as Atlanta or Flint , it's supposed to eat planes for breakfast . The Smo is fragile , and unforgiving of mistakes , you'd know that if you had one . One thing I've noticed is people seem to forget basics for the sake of complaining , if AP isn't working on a ship due to it's angle , switch to HE regardless of what ship you're shooting at . Guess it's more fun to come on the forum and complain about a ship being unkillable . 

I don't really believe it's just a AA ship at this point, after watching it obliterate friendly battleships, or enemy, depending on it's side.

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Just now, Formous said:

I don't really believe it's just a AA ship at this point, after watching it obliterate friendly battleships, or enemy, depending on it's side.

People complained about the Atlanta when it came out  because it BBQ'd BB's and obliterated DD's , now it's acknowledged to be fragile and hard to play well , the same crap occurs on this forum over and over again .

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4 minutes ago, retic1959 said:

People complained about the Atlanta when it came out  because it BBQ'd BB's and obliterated DD's , now it's acknowledged to be fragile and hard to play well , the same crap occurs on this forum over and over again .

Understand that the Smol is a ship Ive learned to avoid.  However while its basically immune to a entire ship line (which is a tad op), what ships I'd expect to kill it, that being BBs, seem to have a inordinately difficult time doing so.  Given the amount of fire Ive seen people toss at the smol at times, It's a striking sight when it just gets through it all with barely any lost hp.  Granted I know some of those times people chuck AP at it, but even the HE doesn't do much against it.  I feel something, somewhere, has to give about this ship.  The Mino is easier to damage then a smol. Actually, I tend to do better attacking a Mino compared to a smol by a leap and a bound, which is saying something.

Edited by Formous

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