Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Landing_Skipper

PSA: Cruiser Torpedoes Are Colorblind

28 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

578
[-GPS-]
Members
2,899 posts
35,176 battles

I was just in a game playing DD when some "friendly" torps missed me only because I slowed down hard to smoke after the Amalfi launched them.  I politely asked that he not launch torps from behind teammates.  The response was an ugly "so move - they only go 56 knots".  Again politely I said that they still kill.  More angry salt.

Green ships cannot see your torps any sooner than red ships can.  There seems to be the misconception that teammates see your torps all the way.  That would make sense but isn't how WG works.  DDs should not have to worry about dodging torps coming from the back line, no matter how "slow" they are.  So when a Venzia launches torps with 13.5 km range, think about who might drive into them along the way.  Their slow speed actually makes TK problems worse because there's so much time for a teammate to "get in the way".

YOUR TORPS, YOUR FAULT 

No exceptions.  I've screwed up plenty but never blame the unfortunate teammate I hit.  Instead, I apologize.

  • Cool 5
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
6 posts
3,166 battles
27 minutes ago, Landing_Skipper said:

There seems to be the misconception that teammates see your torps all the way.  That would make sense but isn't how WG works. 

Are you sure about that? I thought that they didn't register on the HUD, but you could still see them in the water. Regardless, I agree, friendly ships have enough trouble evading the the reds without worrying about the friendlies behind them. I'm pretty sure my GK has taken nearly as many friendly torps as it has enemy.

 

Long story short, don't make your frontline turn around to look for trouble.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
578
[-GPS-]
Members
2,899 posts
35,176 battles
11 minutes ago, SnoopyWWIAce said:

Are you sure about that? I thought that they didn't register on the HUD, but you could still see them in the water. <snip>

Yes.  Positive.

Even if I were wrong, I'm never looking BEHIND me.

Edited by Landing_Skipper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,715
[SOFOP]
Members
2,439 posts
14,361 battles
14 minutes ago, Landing_Skipper said:

Yes.  Positive.

Even if I were wrong, I'm never looking BEHIND me.

Friendly torps always show on the screen the moment they are launched.

Agree on the rest.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,260
[WOLF5]
Supertester
4,114 posts
4,088 battles
56 minutes ago, Landing_Skipper said:

Yes.  Positive.

Even if I were wrong, I'm never looking BEHIND me.

You see friendly torps the instant they are launched. They don't appear on the HUD and start that alarm until the same distance as red torps.

You are right though, shouldn't have to look behind you to see if some moron is trying to torp you. The Arpeggio ships are the worst, people 3 km behind you launching torps at enemies 12km in front of you....

Unless there is no way for your torps to hit a friendly, don't launch them. If you're relying on a friendly to dodge, don't launch. If you're relying on a friendly to stay on current course, dont' launch. Your teammates have many other things to worry about, you torping them from behind shouldn't be one of them, ever. Obviously mistakes happen, but a simple rule is if you're not the closest person to the reds, don't launch torps at them.

Also, I think there's someone who needs to read this thread, @Vanav

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,088
[SSG]
Alpha Tester
5,026 posts
11,593 battles

All torps are colour blind. and 99/100 times yeah - it's the one using the torpedoes fault. likely closer to 9999/10000 or some other very insane number. Of all my battles there's maybe 2 instances where I'd put at least some blame on the other guy and one of those is at least 50/50 cause I knew it was a risky torp launch from CV plane but as they ran along side him, he chose to turn in to them. Other guy had several warnings after he for no reason turned to sail in to their path getting greedy for a kill from the other side of an island. If you ignore multiple pings and chat warnings over the course of 1 minute plus, and your  not in combat (which he wasn't) and the launch wasn't anywhere near in your direction - that is the one very specific time I kinda have to say it's the guy who got hit's fault. But that's a rare and absurd occurrence.

 

But yeah, I've gotten to a point I seriously want team damage removed from torpedoes - while it's exceedingly rare I accidentally hit someone with a torpedo, there are just too many and I have to put it bluntly - idiots- that just can not be trusted at all with torpedoes. I have lost track at how many times I was either Hit by a team torpedo, killed by a team torpedo, took heavy damage from reds because of team torpedoes (inability to move or evading putting me at a bad angle) or killed because of them (same as the previous). Twice, in the same day, by 2 different players, I was teamkilled by a Minsk and a Gnevy -which takes a special kind of player to do when they only have a freaking 4 km range. People complain about 'torp soup' if we remove damage against teammates - it's not gonna change jack other than how many of your enemies your enemy kills for you, people are still going to blindly fire without caring about their teammates. If anything, it may be better at teaching people to use them right than having team damage. Instead of a player getting nuked avoiding team torps by not turning and eating a citadel from BB's, with the damage gone they may instead not worry and focus on not getting killed by the BB, and so turn to avoid that instead of a 1-1 trade the friendly ship lives and the red ship isn't sunk by the torps that helped a teammate get sunk. 

 

See if they really want to 'spam' them when they have to way 2 minutes after getting no hits because instead of moving out of the way of the badly aimed torps they shouldn't have fired only hit a teammate and do nothing instead of the teammates dodge they'd have to do now allowing 1-2 to hit.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,123
[CVA16]
Members
5,391 posts
16,202 battles

I realize it is "My torps, my fault" but I have had cases where I didn't feel too guilty.

One was using 10k torps on a damaged red BB at about 3k. Before my torps arrive somebody sinks the BB so most of my torps sail by in front of the wreck. I utter some curse about kill stealing and move on to other targets. Sometime later, after I have forgotten about those wasted torps, waiting for my torps to reload, I get a "Hit an ally" warning and am pink (didn't sink him).  Still my fault but sometimes you have to accept a little risk in trying to win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
138
Members
134 posts
383 battles

I can always see friendly torpedoes when they are fired, i also listen to the announcements of " torpedoes.......( where they are) friendly torpedoes are white, mine are green enemy torpedoes are red, if a ally fires from behind me I stay on ethe course I'm on and either speed up or slow down or turn to avoid them, simple as that, only bad thing is I haven't seen anybody else the situational awareness to do the same thing 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
578
[-GPS-]
Members
2,899 posts
35,176 battles
1 hour ago, Vanav said:

I can always see friendly torpedoes when they are fired, i also listen to the announcements of " torpedoes.......( where they are) friendly torpedoes are white, mine are green enemy torpedoes are red, if a ally fires from behind me I stay on ethe course I'm on and either speed up or slow down or turn to avoid them, simple as that, only bad thing is I haven't seen anybody else the situational awareness to do the same thing 

So you spend time looking behind you while in combat? 

Of course we all try to avoid "friendly" torps, but sometimes it's not possible.  I can't count all of the times I've been pushed out of my smoke by some imbecile who launched torps behind me, only to get wrecked when I'm exposed.  So no, it's not as "simple as that".

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
138
Members
134 posts
383 battles
11 minutes ago, Landing_Skipper said:

So you spend time looking behind you while in combat? 

Of course we all try to avoid "friendly" torps, but sometimes it's not possible.  I can't count all of the times I've been pushed out of my smoke by some imbecile who launched torps behind me, only to get wrecked when I'm exposed.  So no, it's not as "simple as that".

Its called  situational awareness, simply keep an eye open and your ears open for notifications and sounds

if the voice says " torpedoes to port" look left real quick and determine if they will collide with you, " torpedoes to rear"  might be friendly or from airplanes, or from that enemy tin can that nobody bothered with cause its was too small to score more points on

 

  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17
[FEF]
Members
69 posts
5,111 battles
5 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

and 99/100 times yeah - it's the one using the torpedoes fault

100/100.  ALWAYS.  It's a simple matter of kinematics.  If a friendly has even a 1% chance of turning into your torps, you should not have fired them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,088
[SSG]
Alpha Tester
5,026 posts
11,593 battles
3 minutes ago, badperson said:

100/100.  ALWAYS.  It's a simple matter of kinematics.  If a friendly has even a 1% chance of turning into your torps, you should not have fired them.

Then we might as well remove torps from the game at that point because no one would ever fire them. The guy was 3-4 grid squares to the left, a grid or two ahead, on a parallel course when they were dropped, and the range of the torps wasn't that great, much as they were slow as hell - There is no reason to expect that turn and head in to that, RTS TB's didn't have that much range, and your talking inability to attack within ~14 km radius area on a 35 km wide map - meaning 28x28 km of a 35x35 km map is a chance to hit a teammate with torps that had like a 4 km range, maybe 5. 

You build a 5'6" doorway, your buddy comes over who's 6'4" - you tell him to duck a dozen times and warn him even right before and he doesn't duck and slams his head on the doorway - who's fault is it?

If I had said nothing - yeah, I'd say it's 100% me in that freak chance - but I'm sorry if you ignore a dozen warnings over the course of a minute when you have nothing shooting at you and no reason to not glance at chat once - then the person who got hit is at fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
316
[BIER]
Members
463 posts
6,918 battles
On 11/14/2019 at 12:20 PM, badperson said:

100/100.  ALWAYS.  It's a simple matter of kinematics.  If a friendly has even a 1% chance of turning into your torps, you should not have fired them.

That's simply not true. There are a LOT of situations where the risk of you hitting a friendly is far outweighed by the potential to kill an opponent. You have to accept the responsibility that it may happen, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have fired them.

And then there are the situations like where @Sabot_100 described - it's impossible to predict where those kind of shot will possibly go, particularly for slow-moving torps. They still absolutely should have been fired, and in this case, it's not your fault at all. Just something that happens.

Sure, the vast majority of hits are the launcher's fault, but there are some that aren't, and there are some where the shot is OK to take, even if it ends up hitting someone unintentionally.

But it's never realistic to expect a friendly to dodge. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,497
[RKLES]
Members
12,551 posts
14,267 battles
36 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

That's simply not true. There are a LOT of situations where the risk of you hitting a friendly is far outweighed by the potential to kill an opponent. You have to accept the responsibility that it may happen, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have fired them.

And then there are the situations like where @Sabot_100 described - it's impossible to predict where those kind of shot will possibly go, particularly for slow-moving torps. They still absolutely should have been fired, and in this case, it's not your fault at all. Just something that happens.

Sure, the vast majority of hits are the launcher's fault, but there are some that aren't, and there are some where the shot is OK to take, even if it ends up hitting someone unintentionally.

But it's never realistic to expect a friendly to dodge. 

I have fired off torpedoes in an area where they were pretty much guaranteed massive enemy damage and enemy ships sunk, while possibly not having both myself and an allied ship in the area be sunk. And of course there are the odds that the allied ship might be damage or sunk in the process by my torpedoes, but then again it’s likely to happen from enemy attack anyway. Actually had team mate I sank that I of course apologized to actually thanking me for doing the attack and apologized to me in return for getting in my way. Was quite a nice player.

Now naturally most of the time I do ensure allied ships will have no risk to them if I fire torpedoes, but once in a while I will do a trick shot with torpedoes that skim a little close to what is usually an allied BB or sometimes a CA if they are in bow tanking struggle. And it’s really rare if I fire off torpedoes that will almost certainly put an allied ship at risk, typically only fire off those kind of torpedoes if the fate of the allied ship is already sealed and likelihood of their being sunk before my torpedoes even tough them is really high thanks to how many enemy ships are around them in close proximity.

(The torpedoes that skim close to allied BBs are generally lowest risk if the BB is in reverse that locked into close range head to head fight with another BB or even pair of BBs. A skillfully launched narrow torpedo wall can actually be greatly appreciated by the allied BB as even if the targets are not destroyed by torpedoes, they can be damaged enough for the BB to finish them off.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,201
[HEROS]
Members
1,991 posts
17,625 battles

SOme of you are not going to like this but reality doesn't care if we like it, it is what it is.

I AM responsible if my torps I fire hit a friendly ship.

Players who sail into them how ever are often time equally to blame if not more so at time.  It depends on the situation.   I have seen players so greedy for kills that they will crowd my DD and purposely move to block my shots just to keep me from getting a kill.    It's not common but it does happen.  And yes, a replay and a complaint go in ASAP.  I'm zero tolerance on poor sportsmanship.   

I've seen players who despite warning  ("CA Cleve, friendly torps your right evade!" (repeat twice!)) as they are closing on a torp swarm that was fired minutes ago. Players who are so locked into their gun sight view that nothing else around them gets seen ever.  They'll run into islands, they'll shoot through friendly ships, they'll ram friendly ships, and it's no surprise to me at all that they end up eating friendly torps.  Players that have poor awareness of their surrounding are just as much to blame as the person firing if not more so.  And very nearly every single time I've gotten pinked from just that situation my torps would have hit the enemy ship and likely sunk them if the clueless had not driven into them and absorbed them.  Oh and as a caveat generally the third torpedo that hits them kills ME.  So not only did they save an enemy ship, they caused the loss of one of their own teams DD's, and usually sink moments later because the ship I was trying to torp sinks them.. and just to add insult to injury.. they likely were not tunnel visioned locked on that ship at all, if they even realized it was there.

Yes, sometime you have to take a high risk shot. skim them past a friendly to get at the enemy ship because your torps are the ONLY thing that can take them down before they take you and your team mates out. I've done it, had one strike a friendly and taken out the bad guys.. I never apologise to em when that happen, because more often then not they'll survive one friendly torpedo hit.. they will not survive 9 18" round from a Yamato at point blank! which was the situation when it last happened.  And yea, I got pinked.. and tow penalty matches later the pink was gone.

So, it is what it is.  The solutions the WOWS devs have in place is the best compromise they can make overall.  Perfection is not going to happen unless this game is turned into a total childrens game, if it ever happens I'm so outta here, and so will the vast majority of the current player base.  There is a point where a game can be so dumbed down as to make it no longer a games of any skill.

The hue and cry over the Italian Cruisers is an excellent case in point.  I've not less then a 60% WR on my italian tech tree ships.. Not any of them.  And I am an aggressive player.  Landing Skipper who started this thread knows me and can vouch for that!  (Very aggressive, insanely aggressive at times, but I alway always have a plan, and it doesn't always involve my ship surviving. Survival is secondary to victory.  This is not a realistic simulation. there is no death penalty.)

Yet some player say they're trash, not worth playing etc.  The problem isn't the ships.  It's the player who refuse to adjust their playstyle to the particularities of the ship.  So of course they perform poorly to very poorly in them.  It's alway going to be something or someone else's fault to players like this.   

SO yea, if you shoot torps and they hit a friendly be ready to offer a full apology and accept that your going to be wearing pink for a bit.  If you eat friendly torps how ever, think before you blame.  Could you have avoided them?  How much lead time did you have before you got hit?  The more lead the less blame to the shooted because friendly torps are ALWAYS seen.  You may just owe them an apology for blocking their shot, especially if you suck up friendly torps that would have hit an OPFOR ship.

As my Daddy once told me decades ago..

"It take two to Tango!"

As I said at the beginning of this post, you might not like this but the other side of the coin needs to be noted!

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
627
[POP]
Members
1,084 posts
9,377 battles

If I get hit by friendly torps that have been in the water for 10+ km it is just as much my fault as it is the person that sent them.  It's called situational awareness.   Sometimes the guy behind and to the side of you has the better angle and is better suited to take the shot.  If you choose to sail in front of them after the fact, that's on you.  Change my mind...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
578
[-GPS-]
Members
2,899 posts
35,176 battles
On 11/19/2019 at 7:00 PM, HallaSnackbar said:

If I get hit by friendly torps that have been in the water for 10+ km it is just as much my fault as it is the person that sent them.  It's called situational awareness.   Sometimes the guy behind and to the side of you has the better angle and is better suited to take the shot.  If you choose to sail in front of them after the fact, that's on you.  Change my mind...

So "situational awareness" has to include looking behind you - away from your targets and enemies - on a regular basis to check for torps launched by irresponsible teammates?  No it doesn't.

If you can't be bothered to figure out whether or not your torps could hit a teammate, DON'T LAUNCH THEM.  \

Example:  Asashio torps have a range of 20km stock/16km with Torpedo Acceleration skill.  It is part of your job as an Asashio driver NOT to launch torps that a friendly BB might get wrecked by.  Get closer.  Use an island as a back stop.  Hold your fire until it's safe for your teammates.  It isn't that hard.  All of us make mistakes sometimes, myself included, but if I do then I accept that it was my fault.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,573
[C-CA]
[C-CA]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
4,303 posts
6,266 battles

"PSA: Cruiser Torpedoes Are Colorblind"

There we go, that looks better.

Destroyers can hits friendlies with torps. Cruisers can hit friendlies with torps. Carriers can hit friendlies with torps. And yes, even the odd battleship can hit friendlies with torps. If your ship has torpedoes, then you can hit both allies AND enemies with them. Be mindful when you drop them.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
877 posts
6,656 battles
On 11/13/2019 at 12:11 PM, Landing_Skipper said:

I was just in a game playing DD when some "friendly" torps missed me only because I slowed down hard to smoke after the Amalfi launched them.  I politely asked that he not launch torps from behind teammates.  The response was an ugly "so move - they only go 56 knots".  Again politely I said that they still kill.  More angry salt.

Green ships cannot see your torps any sooner than red ships can.  There seems to be the misconception that teammates see your torps all the way.  That would make sense but isn't how WG works.  DDs should not have to worry about dodging torps coming from the back line, no matter how "slow" they are.  So when a Venzia launches torps with 13.5 km range, think about who might drive into them along the way.  Their slow speed actually makes TK problems worse because there's so much time for a teammate to "get in the way".

YOUR TORPS, YOUR FAULT 

No exceptions.  I've screwed up plenty but never blame the unfortunate teammate I hit.  Instead, I apologize.

I used to type Torps left/right to the friendly, but that was getting lost in the chat window.  I've taken lately to hitting F9 while pointing my cursor at the friendly to give him a "Get Back" warning.  Don't know yet if that's effective (I make every effort not to fire torps when there is a possibility of a friendly crossing their path at some point), but a suggestion.

I do believe friendlies can see your torps the instant they're launched.  I've given the "Get Back" warning and seen the friendly in question start maneuvering/slowing/speeding up in response.  Could be a coincidence however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,123
[CVA16]
Members
5,391 posts
16,202 battles
On 12/22/2019 at 12:21 AM, JAKeller said:

I do believe friendlies can see your torps the instant they're launched.  I've given the "Get Back" warning and seen the friendly in question start maneuvering/slowing/speeding up in response.  Could be a coincidence however.

They CAN see them but most likely will not. In all probability they are zoomed in on a red ship, possibly the one your are trying to target. I have NEVER looked behind me, towards "friendlies", in the heat of battle unless the mini-map shows a red ship there too. It takes too much time. I will may even ignore the torpedo warning coming from the direction of green ships under the assumption (not always correct) that they know what the hell they are doing. I have been on the other end of it many times. With the perfect torp shot lined up and no way to get a clean shot because a clueless friendly has pressed too close to the target. Have to wait until he gets sunk before I can fire.

If I got a get back warning, I would assume somebody just thought I was pressing too far forward. Which might make me slow down or turn if I agreed. I could also be on a suicide mission where I figure I'm dead anyway, might as well close in for a can't-miss torp shot of my own or a ram.  I assume the reason WG never added a specific " torpedo warning" message to the list was that players would think that it absolves them of responsibility for their torps.

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
877 posts
6,656 battles
2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

They CAN see them but most likely will not. In all probability they are zoomed in on a red ship, possibly the one your are trying to target. I have NEVER looked behind me, towards "friendlies", in the heat of battle unless the mini-map shows a red ship there too. It takes too much time. I will may even ignore the torpedo warning coming from the direction of green ships under the assumption (not always correct) that they know what the hell they are doing. I have been on the other end of it many times. With the perfect torp shot lined up and no way to get a clean shot because a clueless friendly has pressed too close to the target. Have to wait until he gets sunk before I can fire.

If I got a get back warning, I would assume somebody just thought I was pressing too far forward. Which might make me slow down or turn if I agreed. I could also be on a suicide mission where I figure I'm dead anyway, might as well close in for a can't-miss torp shot of my own or a ram.  I assume the reason WG never added a specific " torpedo warning" message to the list was that players would think that it absolves them of responsibility for their torps.

 

Good points.  The reason I press "Get Back" is because I really do want to warn them (even though it's usually because they're idiots who rush in across my line of fire, especially when they know a DD's primary weapon is its torps - cruisers have less of a problem with that).  Nothing really absolves the launcher of damage done to friendlies.  Nevertheless, I do always try to warn allies that there's a chance they're about to be friendly torped and apologize if they indeed are.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
578
[-GPS-]
Members
2,899 posts
35,176 battles
On 12/23/2019 at 2:08 PM, JAKeller said:

Good points.  The reason I press "Get Back" is because I really do want to warn them (even though it's usually because they're idiots who rush in across my line of fire, especially when they know a DD's primary weapon is its torps - cruisers have less of a problem with that).  Nothing really absolves the launcher of damage done to friendlies.  Nevertheless, I do always try to warn allies that there's a chance they're about to be friendly torped and apologize if they indeed are.

I also press the F9 key. Most players will stop for at least a moment to guess why they got that message. 

A Benham player torped my Kagero the other day. I think it was on purpose. I’d already unknowingly dodged 2 sets from behind me by slowing down for my own torp launch. Then he launched 1 set at me and hit me with 1 holding the second set back. Later in the game, I held my torps until he definitively turned away. Then I typed in chat something like “that is how you torp responsibly.”  Obscenities followed along with “you moron - you should never get between a Benham and a BB.”  Well then he should be further forward eh? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
240
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
1,063 posts

yeah accidents happen, who woulda thunk people don't always go where you think :Smile-_tongue:

but what pisses me off is when someone refuses to slow down or even turn five degrees to avoid one ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
877 posts
6,656 battles
 
 
 
1
3 hours ago, Landing_Skipper said:

Obscenities followed along with “you moron - you should never get between a Benham and a BB.”  Well then he should be further forward eh? 

It can work the other way around, and it's not just DD drivers with attitude about torps.  I had one yesterday where 2 BBs were fighting.  The green BB apparently didn't see me approaching.  My DD took nearly 4000hp damage from the bot BB's secondaries, but I drove in close in order not to endanger my team in the melee I was driving into.  (I wanted to make sure everything I launched was going to hit without any overshoots)  I torped the bot BB at just under 2km, but the green BB driver states over chat "Nice kill steal".  Some people just don't pay attention no matter what we do.  I'll always try to be courteous when using torpedos, but torps are a DD's main weapon, but other players need to be aware we're going to launching them.  Nothing excuses profligate use of torps (some people just need to learn to aim), especially if you don't warn your team about possible incoming.  (another example from yesterday - I ended up dodging 8 torps fired at a ship behind me.  I'd just launched my own torps and was pulling away from the target.  I barely managed to dodge them.  I did get the kill though, so that was something)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,573
[C-CA]
[C-CA]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
4,303 posts
6,266 battles
4 hours ago, Landing_Skipper said:

I also press the F9 key. Most players will stop for at least a moment to guess why they got that message.

Honestly I think typing something quick like "fish out!" or "torps behind you X!" is the better call than just F9. Whenever "Landsraad, get back!" pops up in chat with the accompanying audio prompt I think one of two things depending on the context:

1: Don't tell me how to drive my ship while you cower in the back, I've got this.

Or, more frequently:

2: NO &%$(ING @#%$ I SHOULD FALL BACK, HALF THE ENEMY TEAM IS IN FRONT OF ME! Aaaaand I just exploded. Wow, that was SO HELPFUL!

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×