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CommodorePerryIPA

9v9 Co-Op: Pros and Cons?

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So, I am a Co-Op main trying to anticipate how 9v9 will impact use PvE players.  What is your opinion?

For now, I won't think about subs...

Pro:

  • More XP per game possible
  • More credits per game possible
  • More green bots in game (for those who like green bots)
  • Less likely for game to end so early

Con:

  • Current stats mean less (assuming they co-mingle with new stats).  For example, 7 or 8 kills in a game now much easier.  XP, Win Rates, etc will all skew.
  • More green bots in game (for those who dislike green bots)
  • Less differentiation of skill in WR.  People with high WR will go down more toward mean, those with low WR will go up toward mean.  This is because each player will have less impact with larger teams.
  • Playing during off peak hours vs peak will have bigger impact (because of number of green bots).  I think WR will go up for folks who play at peak hours, and down for those at off hours.

What else?  I am still thinking about it so may add more in the discussion thread.

I really don't mind the change, except if they mix old stats with new stats. 

 

Edited by CommodorePerryIPA

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It isn't going to change anything. 

Today: We are quickly finishing games by dropping the bots to 0 points with 2 healthy ships still left.

With the change:  We are still quickly going to finish games by dropping the bots to 0 points with 3 healthy ships still left.

 

A move to 9 vs 9 will simply mean an extra player to quickly murder these dumb bots.  More competition as that extra player will be taking damage / kills away from others.  We already murder these bots with the current 8 vs 8 format.  9 players against the same dumb bots will make it worse.

 

I want to say, if anything, it should have been an increase in bots and less players.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I want to say, if anything, it should have been an increase in bots and less players.

 

I think most people would have wanted this from what I read in previous threads.

I think they increased it in anticipation of subs being added.

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4 minutes ago, CommodorePerryIPA said:

I think they increased it in anticipation of subs being added.

^ Probably this.

The 9th team slot in Coop is probably gonna be planned for the upcoming submarines in the future.

Because I honestly don't see much reason for going from "8 vs 8" to "9 vs 9" since a lot of Coop matches end by the 0 points on the bot team, as Haze mentioned.

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10 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It isn't going to change anything. 

Today: We are quickly finishing games by dropping the bots to 0 points with 2 healthy ships still left.

With the change:  We are still quickly going to finish games by dropping the bots to 0 points with 3 healthy ships still left.

 

A move to 9 vs 9 will simply mean an extra player to quickly murder these dumb bots.  More competition as that extra player will be taking damage / kills away from others.  We already murder these bots with the current 8 vs 8 format.  9 players against the same dumb bots will make it worse.

 

I want to say, if anything, it should have been an increase in bots and less players.

 

Pretty much my thoughts when it increased to eight players. With seven there were a few times where one ship would be left alive if the green team was efficient, with eight I’m pretty consistently seeing two ships left depending on ships and mode, with nine I’m expecting at least two and often three left alive unless you have pretty bad human players or mostly bots on your team. 

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I think we may see a small win-rate drop outside of peek hours, when you can find yourself the only human in a team of bots and the bots on your team sink first.

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"Orangutans are skeptical of changes in their cages"

- At the Zoo, Paul Simon

 

This lyric always goes through my head when there is a big patch.  Sometimes I am more orangutan than others, though.

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None of the pros listed are going to be reflected when this goes live; there are no pros to this change.  Assuming a full game with 9 people, this change will result in less xp for everyone, and the games will take longer.  I hope I am wrong but this is what I am anticipating.  This is a change that will not solve any "problems" coop is alleged to have.

Edited by Rustyhole

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I think 9V9 will make little if any difference. I actually think it might reduce mercy rule games but only time will tell.

I am more concerned about the change to MM. It cuts down/limits the number of TT ships to spare bottom tier ones. This can be an issue for those like me who like to play T9 and especially T10 in Co-op. It means fewer same or higher tier ships which is where you get your most rewards. This is an indirect nerf. It's fine in PVP where rewards are larger but as a Co-op main who mainly plays T10 these days I see this impacting me (possibly) big. Not happy about it that's for sure. Hopefully it is only in effect when the queue is full. I don't want to be the only human in a T10 and see all T9 and T8 bots.

Update 0.8.10 brings matchmaker improvements for Co-op Battles:

  • Battles will be played in a 9 vs. 9 format.
  • Any incomplete teams will be complemented with a much wider range of bot ships.

These changes are aimed at making this battle type more interesting.

Besides that, we’re introducing limitations in battles for the maximum number of ships allowed from the highest tier, and minimum number of ships from the lowest tier. These limitations depend on the battle tier and waiting time in the queue.

Example: it's now impossible to have one Tier VIII ship in battle with the rest of the ships being from Tier X. We’re planning to introduce similar improvements to the Random Battles matchmaker in future.

Edited by AdmiralThunder

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8 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

I think 9V9 will make little if any difference. I actually think it might reduce mercy rule games but only time will tell.

I am more concerned about the change to MM. It cuts down/limits the number of TT ships to spare bottom tier ones. This can be an issue for those like me who like to play T9 and especially T10 in Co-op. It means fewer same or higher tier ships which is where you get your most rewards. This is an indirect nerf. It's fine in PVP where rewards are larger but as a Co-op main who mainly plays T10 these days I see this impacting me (possibly) big. Not happy about it that's for sure. Hopefully it is only in effect when the queue is full. I don't want to be the only human in a T10 and see all T9 and T8 bots.

Update 0.8.10 brings matchmaker improvements for Co-op Battles:

  • Battles will be played in a 9 vs. 9 format.
  • Any incomplete teams will be complemented with a much wider range of bot ships.

These changes are aimed at making this battle type more interesting.

Besides that, we’re introducing limitations in battles for the maximum number of ships allowed from the highest tier, and minimum number of ships from the lowest tier. These limitations depend on the battle tier and waiting time in the queue.

Example: it's now impossible to have one Tier VIII ship in battle with the rest of the ships being from Tier X. We’re planning to introduce similar improvements to the Random Battles matchmaker in future.

And still no solution to DD's hogging all the kills either , I'm guilty of doing that myself , It's too easy to do in PVE . I can survive salvo's from bot BB's in a DD that would send me to port in a CL because of the overpen nonsense implemented on BB AP vs DD's . I wish they would address that specifically with a cap on DD's or changes to the overpen .

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4 hours ago, CommodorePerryIPA said:

I think most people would have wanted this from what I read in previous threads.

I think they increased it in anticipation of subs being added.

Subs are still a ways off.

Personally, I think they opened a slot to cram in more CV's.

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This doesn't solve the bandwidth struggle or the computer hardware overload from special effects and AA barrages while in a battle.

That the 9th player slot is for future use by Submarines does seem plausible.

The matchmaking tweaks to prevent being surrounded by ships two tiers above your own ship's tier are welcome, in my opinion.

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5 hours ago, CommodorePerryIPA said:

I really don't mind the change, except if they mix old stats with new stats. 

You are overthinking this. It doesn't matter if it is 1 v 1 or 7 v 30 like in scenarios stats wont be affected at all. 

What I saw in the PT sessions was that the bots play smarter.

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3 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

I think 9V9 will make little if any difference. I actually think it might reduce mercy rule games but only time will tell.

I am more concerned about the change to MM. It cuts down/limits the number of TT ships to spare bottom tier ones. This can be an issue for those like me who like to play T9 and especially T10 in Co-op. It means fewer same or higher tier ships which is where you get your most rewards. This is an indirect nerf. It's fine in PVP where rewards are larger but as a Co-op main who mainly plays T10 these days I see this impacting me (possibly) big. Not happy about it that's for sure. Hopefully it is only in effect when the queue is full. I don't want to be the only human in a T10 and see all T9 and T8 bots.

Update 0.8.10 brings matchmaker improvements for Co-op Battles:

  • Battles will be played in a 9 vs. 9 format.
  • Any incomplete teams will be complemented with a much wider range of bot ships.

These changes are aimed at making this battle type more interesting.

Besides that, we’re introducing limitations in battles for the maximum number of ships allowed from the highest tier, and minimum number of ships from the lowest tier. These limitations depend on the battle tier and waiting time in the queue.

Example: it's now impossible to have one Tier VIII ship in battle with the rest of the ships being from Tier X. We’re planning to introduce similar improvements to the Random Battles matchmaker in future.

I agree, the 9v9 is not going to do much of anything and just unsure what the thinking was behind this change. 

Matchmaking changes are irrelevant in PvE save for what you said, a nerf to earnings. The time to do changes to MM are long past, most of the people who wanted to see a better MM are gone from the game and addressing the issue in co-op is just stupid. Over the years, I have no memory of someone asking for a MM change to co-op although the forums are filled with complaints about it in reference to PvP play........ I find this third (fourth?) change to matchmaking odd since over the years Wargaming has stated over and over again that there was no problem with MM.... Just weird that they keep fixing something they said wasn't broken...... 

Fiddling with co-op is a dangerous thing. Most people are quite happy with the way things are and Wargaming has very little to gain and much to lose if they anger the PvE crowd. 

Edited by Taylor3006
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Pros:

  • Maybe WG actually has a sliver of concern about Co-op, and is at least trying to make it better.

Cons:

  • More chances of bots on the player side
  • More battlefield congestion.
  • More likely to have red ships still afloat when the wretched "mercy rule" kicks in unless the points per ship lost
  • Maybe WG wants Co-op to be more like Randoms (ugh)

 

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4 hours ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

Con-Less damage or hit or whatever to farm for missions.

Pro-It will be over faster.

Games over faster with even less rewards for everyone in general is a loss in my book.

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I played the PTS co-op before it went live... All I got to say is

  • Longer avg time battles
    • You can kiss doing less then 5-7 min battles good bye.
    • You will do more for less XP
      • Thank the Co-op guys for ruining co-op for the rest of us
  • It will have the feel of random battles with bots

I cant stress it enough, people wanted Co-op to change, to be longer, to resemble Randoms with bots.

You have your wish....

For the rest of us, co-op is random with bots now... Idk if that is a good thing..

Edited by Navalpride33
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pros: more ships to shoot at

cons: more often you'll get a friendly team filled with even more bots that have been lobotomized and just rush forward and get sunk (why is the friendly team of bots more often like this?)

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5 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

I played the PTS co-op before it went live... All I got to say is

  • Longer avg time battles
    • You can kiss doing less then 5-7 min battles good bye.
    • You will do more for less XP
      • Thank the Co-op guys for ruining co-op for the rest of us
  • It will have the feel of random battles with bots

I cant stress it enough, people wanted Co-op to change, to be longer, to resemble Randoms with bots.

You have your wish....

For the rest of us, co-op is random with bots now... Idk if that is a good thing..

My experience on PT was varied. The only egregiously long matches involved :etc_swear: CV's, which may be part of their intent. Human CV's don't do very well in the current PvE because short matches limit the slow-motion CV mechanics and bot AA is murderous. I'm glad CV's have an incentive to stay in Random. It means less flying monkeys for the rest of us to put up with.

They tuned up the bot CV's a little for some benighted reason. The logic behind how that helps anything can only be found in the basement of the Lubyanka.

The bigger teams didn't seem to make much of a difference.

The MM change remains to be seen. I kind of like the idea of playing a Prinz Eugen or Baltimore and not worry about having 3 or 4 Yamatos and Kemlins one-shotting you.

I don't really buy into the "more like Random" meme. They tried to goad PvE fans into Randoms a long time ago, before they realized that a big chunk of players prefer to play PvE or not at all.

Edited by TF77
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The only advantage will be ( probably) less occasion you are alone in one side with a DD, kill bot DD facing you, do 15 (and on) k damage and battle is over......gain 1000 silver and 200 xp....:cap_fainting:

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8 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

I played the PTS co-op before it went live... All I got to say is

  • Longer avg time battles
    • You can kiss doing less then 5-7 min battles good bye.
    • You will do more for less XP
      • Thank the Co-op guys for ruining co-op for the rest of us
  • It will have the feel of random battles with bots

I cant stress it enough, people wanted Co-op to change, to be longer, to resemble Randoms with bots.

You have your wish....

For the rest of us, co-op is random with bots now... Idk if that is a good thing..

You keep saying these things over and over and they are completely false. You also do not play much Co-op (a whopping 401 games - wow) so how did it get ruined for you?

  • The PTS AI is not the same as Live. The PTS AI are like the so called "improved" bots from about a year ago that run and hide all game, dragging it out with no change in difficulty (just more time required to kill them), which Co-op mains detested and complained vociferously about until they were removed from Live. So, no, Co-op mains did not ruin anything for you. This is on WG. WE told them the chicken bots suck and we don't want them. Using their smoke, actually doing some WASD, staying in a Cap vs leaving it, etc... are changes that Co-op mains would be all for. But the run away and hide bots that are like so many PVP players have been universally despised and asked to be removed by Co-op mains.
  • Co-op mains have not asked for MM changes outside of removing mirrored MM. WG did that and I have yet to see anyone complain that they might be matched with a Fuso instead of a mirrored New Mexico.
  • Co-op mains have floated the idea of adding extra bots to the reds to give more rewards to farm but something like 8V10 if there is a full team of humans otherwise stay at 8V8. This change to 9V9 is on WG not the Co-op players. It remains to be seen what if any impact it will have.
  • You couldn't be more wrong, no matter how much you stress it, that Co-op mains wanted Co-op to last longer and resemble Randoms with bots. That could not be further from the truth. When ever WG has made a change to Co-op that makes it more PVP like the Co-op mains have risen up in protest. Most Co-op mains play Co-op because it ISN'T like Randoms/PVP.

You do not play Co-op outside of rarely for mission tasks so why do you continue to make posts like this? It would be like me complaining about some change to Randoms. You don't know what you are talking about, the things you say about Co-op players and what they want are absolutely wrong (most times), and you don't really play the mode. I don't understand your motives and goals with posts like this? Trolling?

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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I'm hoping that more ships on both sides = 1 or 2 more greens die and the mercy rule is forestalled. 

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