Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Helstrem

DD sanity check, please

92 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

2,563
[ARS]
Beta Testers
5,122 posts
5,652 battles

OK, I am pretty sure I was in the right here, but I'd like to know if there is something I was missing that the other player knew/understood that I don't.

Scene:

While I don't play DDs that often as I am usually pretty bad in them, this match finds me in Hatsuharu and though I intended to do Co-op I clicked Battle with Random still selected and did not have time to cancel.  Only spot of good luck there is that contrary to my normal habit in Co-op I had just equipped a camo, though I still did not have any flags or premium consumables as I normally would in PvP.  My Hatsuharu captain is 10 points with CE as well as other DD basics such as LS.  This match featured two CVs on each team and I was mid-tier.

At match start I move towards the west most cap, the one closest to me, and advise my team of my error on game selection, but that I'll do the best I can for them.  On nearing the cap I see it start to flip and then spot a RN DD in cap, so I turn to the west to head further west moving with an island between me and the cap, he spots me as I near the island and gets some shots into me.  The friendly Raimondo Montecuccoli slows and turns into the island and I pass astern.  Once past the island I do not spot the RN DD again, though the cap is still being flipped, there is now a smoke cloud in the cap.  I reverse course and heading back to pass again behind the island.  As I do I start firing my guns into the smoke in a long shot attempt to delay the cap and on my first salvo I obtain a hit, but it does not fully reset the cap meaning there is another DD in there as well.  At this point the Raimondo Montecuccoli player says in chat something to the effect of "Stop firing your guns!", however as I am not detected because I am too far from the smoke for my smoke gun bloom to reveal me and no enemy has visibility on me I fire a final salvo before the island blocks my shots.  I then state that I was not detected in chat.  The Raimondo Montecuccoli player then moves into the cap around the west side of the island, where I had been firing from, and promptly eats a fatal number of torpedoes before he can even fully clear the island.  This, unfortunately, gives him more time to vent as our team is slaughtered.

In open chat the Raimondo Montecuccoli player says that he was sunk because the cowardly DD wouldn't enter the cap.  I assume this means me, as I was the only friendly DD present.  I ignore that, but ask also in open why I should have stopped firing my guns.  He replies that I was broadside to the cap and had no chance of damaging anything.  I acknowledge that I was, but that I was also not detected while firing and that I did in fact score a hit, delaying the cap.  He replies that all one needs to do is look at the stats on IJN DD guns to know not to fire them.  I say they hit hard and, again, I couldn't be detected while firing.  He finishes his part with something rude and I return to focusing on the match as I enter the cap, find it deserted with an IJN DD, don't recall which, leaving the area so I fire on it, my torps still reloading.  After two more salvos the match ends in a blowout as my team drops to 0 points due to not getting any kills/caps and many of us being sunk.

 

Needless to say, my performance sucked there.  I also didn't cover, as it wasn't relevant to the story, the several air attacks I endured.  There were no aircraft nearby when I was firing into the smoke.  I would have sunk the DD at the end had the game not ended, but cie la vie.

 

My question is this, was I correct to be firing into the smoke in an attempt to do something, anything, or was the Raimondo Montecuccoli player correct in that I should not have been firing in that situation?

Edited by Helstrem
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,259
[WORX]
Members
11,381 posts
19,183 battles

In a CV AND Italian cruiser match.. IJN DDs are reduced to

  • Spotting

That is it... Two wrongs dont make a right, you were wrong in using the HATS guns at the wrong opportune time.

The Italian cruiser messed up in eating torps knowing full well there was a DD there....

With the inclusion of Italian cruisers and CVs, the traditional battle role of ships no longer applies.

Cruisers are the cappers

DDs are the spotters

BBs are the arty

Until people adjust to the errors of WG in the 0.8.0 patch series, loses like this will happen

  • Cool 1
  • Confused 4
  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,306 posts
7,142 battles

There was nothing wrong with opening fire to try to reset the cap if you weren't detected. Its not your business to try and nursemaid a cruiser player who doesn't see the risk of sailing through smoke clouds when enemy DDs could be torping them. And even this assumes you could've prevented the enemy DDs from torping the smoke by not shooting which is a huge and probably incorrect assumption. Once you're past the Mutsucki IJN DD guns are more than fine and should be used when the opportunity presents itself. 

The guy was just being a salty idiot because he [edited] up. 

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,563
[ARS]
Beta Testers
5,122 posts
5,652 battles
14 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

That is it... Two wrongs dont make a right, you were wrong in using the HATS guns at the wrong opportune time.

Why was I wrong to fire?  I was not spotted.  Nothing could spot me when I fired.  This is what I am not understanding.

Edited by Helstrem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
851
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
1,212 posts
16,540 battles

One thing I need to point out...

26 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

but it does not fully reset the cap meaning there is another DD in there as well.

One hit doesn't fully reset one ship. Depending on how much he's capped, it usually takes at least 3 "resets."

You may have done a bunch of things wrong, but firing your guns for a reset wasn't one of them, and saying you should never use them because they're bad is all kinds of <words I'm probably not allowed to use on the forum>.

  • Cool 6
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,259
[WORX]
Members
11,381 posts
19,183 battles
3 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Why was I wrong to fire?  I was not spotted.  Nothing could spot me when I fired.

Yes it was, IJN DDs from tier 8 and below have awful guns... I would've recommend to spray the smoke area with torps...

 Let the Italian cruiser to reset to cap... Yet he messed up as well..

Edited by Navalpride33
  • Confused 2
  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,563
[ARS]
Beta Testers
5,122 posts
5,652 battles
Just now, grumpymunky said:

One thing I need to point out...

One hit doesn't fully reset one ship. Depending on how much he's capped, it usually takes at least 3 "resets."

Ah, thanks.  I did not know that.  I deduced there was a second DD later due to finding the IJN DD leaving cap, but I did not know a single hit didn't fully reset.  Always glad to have more info about game systems.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,596
[KRAK]
Members
3,718 posts
21,738 battles
31 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

OK, I am pretty sure I was in the right here, but I'd like to know if there is something I was missing that the other player knew/understood that I don't.

Scene:

While I don't play DDs that often as I am usually pretty bad in them, this match finds me in Hatsuharu and though I intended to do Co-op I clicked Battle with Random still selected and did not have time to cancel.  Only spot of good luck there is that contrary to my normal habit in Co-op I had just equipped a camo, though I still did not have any flags or premium consumables as I normally would in PvP.  My Hatsuharu captain is 10 points with CE as well as other DD basics such as LS.  This match featured two CVs on each team and I was mid-tier.

At match start I move towards the west most cap, the one closest to me, and advise my team of my error on game selection, but that I'll do the best I can for them.  On nearing the cap I see it start to flip and then spot a RN DD in cap, so I turn to the west to head further west moving with an island between me and the cap, he spots me as I near the island and gets some shots into me.  The friendly Raimondo Montecuccoli slows and turns into the island and I pass astern.  Once past the island I do not spot the RN DD again, though the cap is still being flipped, there is now a smoke cloud in the cap.  I reverse course and heading back to pass again behind the island.  As I do I start firing my guns into the smoke in a long shot attempt to delay the cap and on my first salvo I obtain a hit, but it does not fully reset the cap meaning there is another DD in there as well.  At this point the Raimondo Montecuccoli player says in chat something to the effect of "Stop firing your guns!", however as I am not detected because I am too far from the smoke for my smoke gun bloom to reveal me and no enemy has visibility on me I fire a final salvo before the island blocks my shots.  I then state that I was not detected in chat.  The Raimondo Montecuccoli player then moves into the cap around the west side of the island, where I had been firing from, and promptly eats a fatal number of torpedoes before he can even fully clear the island.  This, unfortunately, gives him more time to vent as our team is slaughtered.

In open chat the Raimondo Montecuccoli player says that he was sunk because the cowardly DD wouldn't enter the cap.  I assume this means me, as I was the only friendly DD present.  I ignore that, but ask also in open why I should have stopped firing my guns.  He replies that I was broadside to the cap and had no chance of damaging anything.  I acknowledge that I was, but that I was also not detected while firing and that I did in fact score a hit, delaying the cap.  He replies that all one needs to do is look at the stats on IJN DD guns to know not to fire them.  I say they hit hard and, again, I couldn't be detected while firing.  He finishes his part with something rude and I return to focusing on the match as I enter the cap, find it deserted with an IJN DD, don't recall which, leaving the area so I fire on it, my torps still reloading.  After two more salvos the match ends in a blowout as my team drops to 0 points due to not getting any kills/caps and many of us being sunk.

 

Needless to say, my performance sucked there.  I also didn't cover, as it wasn't relevant to the story, the several air attacks I endured.  There were no aircraft nearby when I was firing into the smoke.  I would have sunk the DD at the end had the game not ended, but cie la vie.

 

My question is this, was I correct to be firing into the smoke in an attempt to do something, anything, or was the Raimondo Montecuccoli player correct in that I should not have been firing in that situation?

Always fire your guns whenever you are able to do so safely especially if you cannot be spotted.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,563
[ARS]
Beta Testers
5,122 posts
5,652 battles
Just now, Navalpride33 said:

Yes it was, IJN DDs from tier 8 and below have awful guns... I would've recommend to spray the smoke area with torps...

Torps were still reloading.  Even if I had them, and given that IJN guns are weaker, that still doesn't explain why not to use them given that firing them did not cause me to be detected.  Bad is still better than nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
851
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
1,212 posts
16,540 battles
10 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Yes it was, IJN DDs from tier 8 and below have awful guns

... and this is just plain wrong.

The 6x 127s you find on the Kagero, Akatsuki, Shinonome and Asashios have massive HE alpha potential.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,259
[WORX]
Members
11,381 posts
19,183 battles
Just now, Helstrem said:

 Bad is still better than nothing.

Not for the HAT or any IJN DD from tier 8 and below.... You will use torps %95 of the time over your guns....

I understand you dont play IJN DDs, you did what you though was correct...

For me, you were

  • in a bad situation
    • Capping, like I stated earlier... in a CV and Italian cruiser matches, IJN DDs are spotters.
    • IJN DDs are not knife fighters
    • Incompetent cruiser as back up...
  • Torp reload is 45 sec in the HAT...
    • You needed to wait for them and use them...

Both are at fault

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
548
[BOTO]
Members
1,355 posts
16,531 battles
10 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Torps were still reloading.  Even if I had them, and given that IJN guns are weaker, that still doesn't explain why not to use them given that firing them did not cause me to be detected.  Bad is still better than nothing.

Without seeing the replay I don't see where you did anything wrong.  Ignore people that tell you not to use your guns, just because a lot of IJN DDs have poor turret traverse and slow reloads doesn't mean you shouldn't use them.  As you correctly pointed out their guns do hit hard and if you can use them without being detected then you should do so.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,563
[ARS]
Beta Testers
5,122 posts
5,652 battles
Just now, Navalpride33 said:

Not for the HAT or any IJN DD from tier 8 and below.... You will use torps %95 of the time over your guns....

I understand you dont play IJN DDs, you did what you though was correct...

For me, you were

  • in a bad situation
    • Capping, like I stated earlier... in a CV and Italian cruiser matches, IJN DDs are spotters.
    • IJN DDs are not knife fighters
    • Incompetent cruiser as back up...
  • Torp reload is 45 sec in the HAT...
    • You needed to wait for them and use them...

Both are at fault

I wasn't capping and my torps were reloading because I had previously fired them into the smoke cloud, prior to my course reversal.

So, given that I wasn't spotted, there were no airplanes nearby, the smoke was blocking the view of the enemy ships, the enemy DDs were in the smoke (I would have spotted them had they not been) and I was about to pass with the island between me and the cap, making any torpedo shot at me an impossibility, why should I held fire?  "IJN guns bad!" is not an answer.  I don't get what is gained by not firing.  By firing I might do damage and I might delay the cap, but not firing does nothing and it isn't like they didn't know I was more or less right there already.

Also, Hatusharu's torp reload is over 60s.  Maybe with a 19 point captain and full spec it is 45 seconds, but I have only a 10 pointer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,259
[WORX]
Members
11,381 posts
19,183 battles
48 minutes ago, grumpymunky said:

... and this is just plain wrong.

The 6x 127s you find on the Kagero, Akatsuki, Shinonome and Asashios have massive HE alpha potential.

The values are different from tier 8 and above I mentioned that in my OP...

Tier 8 and below IJN DDs rearlly use gun in the situations the OP explained... That is his fault...

Do you use guns ?? Yes only on low HP targets... Never as a primary ordnance... If you do you'll end up like the OP.

Edited by Navalpride33
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,767 posts
93 battles
47 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

My question is this, was I correct to be firing into the smoke in an attempt to do something, anything, or was the Raimondo Montecuccoli player correct in that I should not have been firing in that situation?

IMO you shouldn't have fired into the smoke. You mentioned you don't play DDs often and you're not that good, so making mistakes like this is acceptable. 

Sure IJN DD guns may have the best alpha among DD guns right now, but the way you approached that situation is pretty bad. IMO you should have dropped torps at the cap where the enemy DD is most likely to be and will be heading. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,563
[ARS]
Beta Testers
5,122 posts
5,652 battles
3 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

The values are different from tier 8 and above I mentioned that in my OP...

Tier 8 and below IJN DDs rearlly use gun in the situations the OP explained... That is his fault...

Do you use guns ?? Yes only on low HP targets... Never as a primary ordnance... If you do you'll end up like the OP sunk.

 

2 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

IMO you shouldn't have fired into the smoke. You mentioned you don't play DDs often and you're not that good, so making mistakes like this is acceptable. 

Sure IJN DD guns may have the best alpha among DD guns right now, but the way you approached that situation is pretty bad. IMO you should have dropped torps at the cap where the enemy DD is most likely to be and will be heading. 

Why can nobody explain why?

You all just keep saying it is bad with no explanation.  I know the guns aren't great and gunfights are less than ideal to put it mildly, but none of that seems relevant to the situation described.  I knew I could fire without being detected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
329
[WK]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
1,150 posts
16,134 battles

@Helstrem  Just post the replay.  It would go a long way to helping you out.  You might very well be missing something that someone else will spot.  Otherwise they can only go with what you are stating, and are answering you accordingly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
851
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
1,212 posts
16,540 battles
35 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

The values are different from tier 8 and above I mentioned that in my OP...

What you said was "IJN DDs from tier 8 and below have awful guns."

What a coincidence, all the ships I listed are IJN DDs from tier 8 and below that fire the exact same shells with the same ballistics and damage as the Yugumo and Shimakaze.

36 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Do you use guns ?? Yes only on low HP targets... Never as a primary ordnance... If you do you'll end up like the OP sunk.

You must have trouble reading because the OP said he was still alive at the end of that match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,259
[WORX]
Members
11,381 posts
19,183 battles
Just now, Helstrem said:

You all just keep saying it is bad with no explanation.  I know the guns aren't great and gunfights are less than ideal to put it mildly, but none of that seems relevant to the situation described.  I knew I could fire without being detected. 

For educational purpose I'll repeat it again since you ask for an opinion, 

  • IJN DD guns from say tier 8 and below are for low HP target situations only...

In a CV or Italian cruiser matches, dont use them unless for the situation noted above.

IJN torp DDs like the HAT are not gun ships... So the firing guns into smoke is ill-advised...

  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,571
[WOLF2]
Members
4,985 posts
20,544 battles
1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

OK, I am pretty sure I was in the right here, but I'd like to know if there is something I was missing that the other player knew/understood that I don't.

Scene:

While I don't play DDs that often as I am usually pretty bad in them, this match finds me in Hatsuharu and though I intended to do Co-op I clicked Battle with Random still selected and did not have time to cancel.  Only spot of good luck there is that contrary to my normal habit in Co-op I had just equipped a camo, though I still did not have any flags or premium consumables as I normally would in PvP.  My Hatsuharu captain is 10 points with CE as well as other DD basics such as LS.  This match featured two CVs on each team and I was mid-tier.

At match start I move towards the west most cap, the one closest to me, and advise my team of my error on game selection, but that I'll do the best I can for them.  On nearing the cap I see it start to flip and then spot a RN DD in cap, so I turn to the west to head further west moving with an island between me and the cap, he spots me as I near the island and gets some shots into me.  The friendly Raimondo Montecuccoli slows and turns into the island and I pass astern.  Once past the island I do not spot the RN DD again, though the cap is still being flipped, there is now a smoke cloud in the cap.  I reverse course and heading back to pass again behind the island.  As I do I start firing my guns into the smoke in a long shot attempt to delay the cap and on my first salvo I obtain a hit, but it does not fully reset the cap meaning there is another DD in there as well.  At this point the Raimondo Montecuccoli player says in chat something to the effect of "Stop firing your guns!", however as I am not detected because I am too far from the smoke for my smoke gun bloom to reveal me and no enemy has visibility on me I fire a final salvo before the island blocks my shots.  I then state that I was not detected in chat.  The Raimondo Montecuccoli player then moves into the cap around the west side of the island, where I had been firing from, and promptly eats a fatal number of torpedoes before he can even fully clear the island.  This, unfortunately, gives him more time to vent as our team is slaughtered.

In open chat the Raimondo Montecuccoli player says that he was sunk because the cowardly DD wouldn't enter the cap.  I assume this means me, as I was the only friendly DD present.  I ignore that, but ask also in open why I should have stopped firing my guns.  He replies that I was broadside to the cap and had no chance of damaging anything.  I acknowledge that I was, but that I was also not detected while firing and that I did in fact score a hit, delaying the cap.  He replies that all one needs to do is look at the stats on IJN DD guns to know not to fire them.  I say they hit hard and, again, I couldn't be detected while firing.  He finishes his part with something rude and I return to focusing on the match as I enter the cap, find it deserted with an IJN DD, don't recall which, leaving the area so I fire on it, my torps still reloading.  After two more salvos the match ends in a blowout as my team drops to 0 points due to not getting any kills/caps and many of us being sunk.

 

Needless to say, my performance sucked there.  I also didn't cover, as it wasn't relevant to the story, the several air attacks I endured.  There were no aircraft nearby when I was firing into the smoke.  I would have sunk the DD at the end had the game not ended, but cie la vie.

 

My question is this, was I correct to be firing into the smoke in an attempt to do something, anything, or was the Raimondo Montecuccoli player correct in that I should not have been firing in that situation?

Well, thank God you had camo on … very entertaining story :)

Normally you would have torps ready and that DD would be flushed out or dead in his own smoke … but the blind firing made the story even better 

Running behind the cruiser is probably what pissed him off … that and announcing that you thought it was co-op :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,571
[WOLF2]
Members
4,985 posts
20,544 battles
1 hour ago, grumpymunky said:

 

You may have done a bunch of things wrong, but firing your guns for a reset wasn't one of them … 

Of course it was wrong … the whole story was wrong on so many levels 

Edited by Commander_367

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,259
[WORX]
Members
11,381 posts
19,183 battles
24 minutes ago, grumpymunky said:

What a coincidence, all the ships I listed are IJN DDs from tier 8 and below that fire the exact same shells with the same ballistics and damage as the Yugumo and Shimakaze.

How can you compare fighting against tier 9 ships with tier 6 ships...

High tier gaming is different from tier 6...

At tiers 4, 5, 6, and 7.

  • IJN DDs should only use guns in shooting low HP ships situations only.

In high tier gaming...

  • IJN DDs should use thier guns (with IFHE) more often...
    • I recommend a %75 guns to %25 torp ratio.
24 minutes ago, grumpymunky said:

You must have trouble reading because the OP said he was still alive at the end of that match.

Well, you're right... Edited and TY...

Even though he lived, I doubt the game was productive one for him or the Italian cruiser that was torped.

  • Plus no one bothered to cap (considering it ended in zero)

If the game would've gone longer I suspect

  1. The red CV will sink him
  2. Any Italian cruiser will sink him (again for shooting off guns).

Either way... It was not going to end well when a team was not ideal for an inexperience IJN DD.

 

Edited by Navalpride33

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,793
[GOB]
[GOB]
Members
2,375 posts

Shooting your guns is never wrong IF you know you will not be spotted..you said you were going behind an island.  He was mad because he got type killed. He was too busy yelling at you in chat and forgot that you NEVER rush a DD in smoke in a cap and NOT expect a wall of torps.  He was embarrassed and had to blame it on someone.

That is Cap 101.

Col Out

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,563
[ARS]
Beta Testers
5,122 posts
5,652 battles

I'll post the replay now that I am home.  Please understand my OP was written from memory of the battle.

35 minutes ago, Volron said:

@Helstrem  Just post the replay.  It would go a long way to helping you out.  You might very well be missing something that someone else will spot.  Otherwise they can only go with what you are stating, and are answering you accordingly.

 

23 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

For educational purpose I'll repeat it again since you ask for an opinion, 

  • IJN DD guns from say tier 8 and below are for low HP target situations only...

In a CV or Italian cruiser matches, dont use them unless for the situation noted above.

IJN torp DDs like the HAT are not gun ships... So the firing guns into smoke is ill-advised...

That is all and good, but you still aren't saying why.  You are simply asking me to accept your statement on your own authority.  As you can see from this thread your position is not universal.

 

17 minutes ago, Commander_367 said:

Well, thank God you had camo on … very entertaining story :)

Normally you would have torps ready and that DD would be flushed out or dead in his own smoke … but the blind firing made the story even better 

Running behind the cruiser is probably what pissed him off … that and announcing that you thought it was co-op :)

Perhaps.  I mostly play PvP and have had some good DD matches, one of which in Cossack I consider to be right up there in my top five matches ever.  Granted I didn't say that.

 

20191106_173542_PJSD206-Hatsuharu_17_NA_fault_line.wowsreplay

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,563
[ARS]
Beta Testers
5,122 posts
5,652 battles
4 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Even though he lived, I doubt the game was productive one for him or the Italian cruiser that was torped.

  • Plus no one bothered to cap (considering it ended in zero)

If the game would've gone longer I suspect

  1. The red CV will sink him
  2. Any Italian cruiser will sink him (again for shooting off guns).

Either way... It was not going to end well when a team was not ideal for an inexperience IJN DD.

 

CV probably.  I have no idea why you think an Italian cruiser might have gotten me.  You seem completely oblivious that I only fired my guns when I could not be spotted.  I did not fire on the RN DD when I first encountered it.  You seem to be reading my very specific situation into "OP open water gun boats in IJN DDs" when that is not at all what is described.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×