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STINKWEED_

Final Verdict on Italian Cruisers?

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I haven't been lucky enough to get an early access Italian cruiser to try out yet but I'm finishing the last Italian mission directive and will have a large hoard of tokens. I'm not sure if I should use the tokens on Italian perm camo or on something else. 

Is there any consensus on the tiers 5-8 Italian cruisers? are any of them worth getting when they become available?  I've only heard negative feedback thus far so I'm on the fence about getting the camo if I won't be using it.  

Edited by STINKWEED_

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I played all the early release ones available on the latest PTS, and have not been graced with any missions on Live to get them.

I was planning on getting the Tier 7 and 8 perma-camos, but given how they played, I doubt I will do the IT line at all (would require some changes to the ships before I attempt it).  Without HE the IT CAs have a terrible time kiting a ship (and you have to show too much side to be able to bring torps or all guns to bear - so you have just 4 barrels at a time to try to damage the superstructure of a narrow target).  While I did well (damage wise) with them, I had to really work to get that damage and it just didn't feel like a fun experience.

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They require a lot of work to even farm damage reasonably well. They generally out and out can't leverage that into winning games without either allies making plays that let them deal with key targets or the red team making mistakes.

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They'll go from being UP to being OP just as the verdict with French DDs was as it takes a good player using them correctly to be able to truly judge their strength.

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6 minutes ago, NeoRussia said:

They'll go from being UP to being OP just as the verdict with French DDs was as it takes a good player using them correctly to be able to truly judge their strength.

I think the opposite will be true, they'll lose power as players figure out what they are and how to react to them. They're good distractions due to their current novelty and they can exploit people who don't know how big the single-shot threat they pose is. As people start to figure out how to mitigate them and not to make certain plays near them, they'll drop off in power because they can't do stuff on their own. 

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I just got the tier 8 camo, not impressed with the Trento at tier 6 so that will be a sale.  I do not normally keep Tier 7 tech tree ships, but I do keep tier 8 ships.  Grind is long at tier 8 so perm camo useful there 

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3 minutes ago, Panzer1113 said:

I just got the tier 8 camo, not impressed with the Trento at tier 6 so that will be a sale.  I do not normally keep Tier 7 tech tree ships, but I do keep tier 8 ships.  Grind is long at tier 8 so perm camo useful there 

My thoughts as well.  Thats why I got the tier 8 perm camo.

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50 minutes ago, STINKWEED_ said:

...  I've only heard negative feedback thus far so I'm on the fence about getting the camo if I won't be using it.  

I think it may be early for a "final" verdict and who knows what the future my bring (i.e. buffs).

Tiers 7 & 8 are my favorite level to play, so I got the camos, even though I'm not impressed with the T5.   My decision was based on a past action ...

I once passed on getting the Artic camo for Edinburgh based on others' opinions.  I loved the Fiji, even paid for it's permacamo.  After getting the Edinburgh I found I actually liked playing it as much as Fiji ... and regretted passing on "Artic". 

Will the Italians turn out to be worth it?  I don't know ... but the permacamos now are basically free.

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4 minutes ago, DocWalker said:

I think it may be early for a "final" verdict and who knows what the future my bring (i.e. buffs).

I agree. I'm not sure we'll see buffs until the ships have been in general release for a patch or two and it's not just the lucky ones (or the crate spammers) who have their hands on them (hence more data points for them to work with). I'm inclined to agree with those who say that this line is challenging to do well in, but I'm not necessarily sure that state of affairs is a bad thing. I got all the permacamos, and I intend to take this line at least to T8.

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58 minutes ago, NeoRussia said:

They'll go from being UP to being OP just as the verdict with French DDs was as it takes a good player using them correctly to be able to truly judge their strength.

I wish that were true but what redeeming factors do they have? Weak armor, slow torps, anemic DPS, and meh range and conceal. Anyone who looked closely at the stats on the French DDs could see their potential. Especially at T8 where their torp angles become vicious and proper use of MBRB destroys many peers. The fundamental problem limiting these Italian ships is reload and gimmick ammo. They basically get 2/3(or less) of the armament  of their peers. No DoT plus bounces will always hurt these ships. Can the be made effective without being broken? Sure but it’d basically mean shorter reload and less damage for the shells. Regardless they’ll struggle with survivability. The French DDs are WMDs in the right hands while I haven’t seen one post of Italians dominating any matches like other cruisers can or the French DDs can.

Edited by KnifeInUrNeck
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You can do better in every other Cruiser Line than ITA Cruisers.  Even the old "normal" Italian Premium Cruisers D'Aosta and Abruzzi are better and not infuriating to the user.

1 hour ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

I wish that were true but what redeeming factors do they have? Weak armor, slow torps, anemic DPS, and meh range and conceal. Anyone who looked closely at the stats on the French DDs could see their potential. Especially at T8 where their torp angles become vicious and proper use of MBRB destroys many peers. The fundamental problem limiting these Italian ships is reload and gimmick ammo. They basically get 2/3(or less) of the armament  of their peers. No DoT plus bounces will always hurt these ships. Can the be made effective without being broken? Sure but it’d basically mean shorter reload and less damage for the shells. Regardless they’ll struggle with survivability. The French DDs are WMDs in the right hands while I haven’t seen one post of Italians dominating any matches like other cruisers can or the French DDs can.

I have all kinds of criticism with the awfulness of the FR DD Line.  The saving graces for that Line all reside with Tier IX Mogador and X Kleber.  The rest is garbage a.f. or decidedly meh.  The FR DD Line's characteristics only really come together well at the latest of its tiers.  Most of them lack the Engine Boost + MBRB access.  The strong AP performance is a High Tier thing.  They only get a decent torpedo launcher arrangement in Tiers IX-X.

Even then for a Line designed on ambush and slashing tactics, the gun traverse sucks even for the best of them.

And if you're PVP'ing with them, pray the CV doesn't go after you.

 

Just because Mogador and Kleber are actually fantastic, doesn't mean the rest of the Line, which is most of them, is actually any good.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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I've had a pretty good time with Zara. She's definitely a keeper so far.

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I kinda wish you could choose between HE and SAP as opposed to having SAP and AP. I've been playing with the Tier I-II ships, not much can be said I suppose, they're low level ships that have fast reloads, move quickly and have decent turning. I'd have to play a little bit more on the Tier III but I think the reload times start to drop off there and I think gets somewhat worse as you keep moving up. The smoke is nice but it takes forever to recharge and the ships are a bit squishy, even when you try to play conservatively, a good salvo will take a chunk out of your HP.

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Just got the Trento in a mission, I cannot justify investing time and resources in this (captain) nor can I justify 400 doubloons/elite xp to move a captain that I made for the Genova and the tier 5 into it. Another 15 point captain to rot in two tier 5 ships I guess.

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Got Genova on day one of the event. Picked up the tech-tree tier 5 and 6 not long after. The Genova is, imo, not worth spending any time with currently. Whatever the SAP can do to DDs, the 20 reload and slow turret traverse, combined with being a damage-farm pinata, render pretty useless, particularly when up-tiered. The two tech-tree ships are "meh," at best, imo. They require a lot of work to produce mediocre results.

Respects,

Am

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3 hours ago, Aetreus said:

I think the opposite will be true, they'll lose power as players figure out what they are and how to react to them. They're good distractions due to their current novelty and they can exploit people who don't know how big the single-shot threat they pose is. As people start to figure out how to mitigate them and not to make certain plays near them, they'll drop off in power because they can't do stuff on their own. 

^ I agree. Unlike the British CLs, they don't have a lot of tools to use. They really have a devil of a time damaging BBs and some of the higher tier CAs if they angle in. Right now people aren't familiar with them and give them nice flat sides to hit. Once the knowledge passes down a bit I think they will have more trouble. They aren't as terrible as people make them out to be but they skill floor on the Italian cruisers is rather high, but I think they also have a relatively low ceiling. With no HE and very slow-firing guns they have some of the worst features of cruisers and BBs. The reloads are slow enough that misses or bounces/shatters are incredibly painful like with BBs, but with CA guns they shatter or bounce a lot even against other cruisers. They really don't stack damage well at all. You can do it, but  you really have to work. You don't have HE, good penetration, or high ROF to help you at all.  I've managed a couple of high damage games (and a kraken) in Genova, but it took a lot of work and good fortune. Trento is a bit better. I don't like Montecuccoli at all. Those are the only 3 I have so far. (I think Montecuccoli is completely incapable of damaging Imperator Nicolai without hitting with a torp. I couldn't get a single shell to cause damage even on the upper belt and the bow and it has almost no superstructure to hit.) 

The guns work well against soft targets like DDs, but without hydro or radar you are dependent on a poor opponent or your team to find them for you. The guns also reload so slowly it is difficult to respond to DDs who know what they are doing and appear for a second or two then disappear and you won't get a second shot without help. They also don't have a good answer for CVs. The fuel smoke is nice against BBs, but it is so short that there isn't even enough time for the CV to think about flying elsewhere before you reappear and you can't fend off AP dive bombers well. The torps have nice ranges but they are generally very slow and the torp batteries aren't enough to keep a BB away from you. 

Right now the community as a whole doesn't know how to counter them so I think this is a happy time. I suspect that will change in a few months and they may have to buff them somehow. 

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They need their reload reduced. Only then will those hard hitting SAP mean something to ships. As of now they do damage per salvo, but just enough to be annoying. Reload needs to be somewhere between 12-15 seconds.

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4 hours ago, Aetreus said:

I think the opposite will be true, they'll lose power as players figure out what they are and how to react to them. They're good distractions due to their current novelty and they can exploit people who don't know how big the single-shot threat they pose is. As people start to figure out how to mitigate them and not to make certain plays near them, they'll drop off in power because they can't do stuff on their own. 

I still remember when the RN CL Line was brand new, the early adopters of Minotaur were tearing it up.  People were citing her crazy stats.  There were constant complaints about the ROF of her 152mm guns spamming those RN CL AP shells.  Hell, yesterday some dude made a thread using Minotaur as an example of her ROF making her an insane HE DPM monster setting ships ablaze :Smile_veryhappy: But more people got to play her as time passed and the stats went down.  Today, there's lots of people that question if she's a valid ship to play in Tier X given how squishy and unforgiving she is.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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The complainers have been those that just want to fire HE and set things on fire. The Italian cruisers don't have that sort of instant gratification. BUT... if you know how to position, you can deal some serious hurt with the SAP. Amalfi was fun for me once I learned her. 

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how can we have a final verdict when they are gonna make more adjustments to them???? i have the tier 5 and like most tier 5 cruisers you have to work for your damage and its hard. 

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I love how people get a hold of these cruisers and can't stop clamoring how horrible they are.

I've had the Duca for like...three years...and I had NO ILLUSIONS at about how horrible the spaghetti boats were gonna be. 

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