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Anij

Super Cruisers and HE issues

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The problem with Cruisers and especially super cruisers like the Smolensk and Minotaur is as follows.

 

1-Massive rate of fire

2-Super accurate guns

3-High Fire chance however that’s related to the ROF.

 

Montana-->12 x 16 inch x 2 Salvos = 24 shells at 16 km assuming a 30% hit rate= 8 hits – 4 over pens/richochet= 4 effective hits

 

Minotaur-->10x 6 inch x 18 shells/min per gun = 180 shells in 60 seconds = 30% hit rate at 16km =54 hits

 

These are the 2 main problems 

First from what I see here the rate of fire is not the problem even though I am willing to bet that the 30% accuracy at 16km is probably off by 5% so that would give us 63 hits but its not just about hitting the target. At best the average BB at 16km with 2 salvos will score between 6-12 hits but at least half of those are meaningless since they will over pen or richochet.

 

The issue with the Minotaur/Smolensk and other HE high ROF ships is that every hit means something. If it doesn’t start a fire it whittles down your HP pool because majority of the hits are on the superstructure and equipment on deck. In fact the ability to cause fires rather consistently is the cherry on top of the cake but it really isn’t necessary. A Minotaur and other ships like her can sink any ship without any flooding and I am willing to bet they can sink a ship without causing a fire or even scoring 1 citadel. For sure it will take a while but given the rate of fire and very good accuracy it probably doesn't take as much time as we think. Its possible WG may have missed or under estimated just how over effective these ships are. That’s why its so dangerous for any ship to venture into the firing range of the Super Cruisers and why teams are reluctant to push.

 

Some common fixes have been argued such as:

  • Reduce the accuracy of the Super cruisers guns. Given the high ROF these ships could use a dispersion nerf.
  • Reduce the fire chance

 

I am not too keen on either of these but lets look at it another way

 

Look I drive a Pensacola and when I see a Lenin, Texas, New York, New Mexico the story goes like this…

 

Your totally screwed! You can run but you are done! And that’s a Tier 6 cruiser with no armor and I take immense joy in hunting BB players down like chickens in a cage. Now the argument is they can blow you out of the water. Yes they can but usually its highly unlilkely..why?

 

At 16km they cannot hit consistently which keeps them out of my gun range and in fact most BBs cant consistently hit anything at that range. 1 salvo you get 3 hits and next salvo you miss even though the target hasn't changed course. Once they are inside the 15km marker I really don’t worry about them till the range is down to 11-13km and that’s more my fault than any skill on their part.

 

So essentially both in theory and practice a Pensacola Tier 6 even though it has a lower rate of fire can whittle down or burn any Tier 10 BB down with a 14km-15km range and that’s just wrong.

 

Cruisers have high ROF guns that can saturate a target with dozens of hits in a minute, every hit does minimal damage but it does eat the target HP pool and on top of that the fire mechanic works in such a way that you can cause 2-3 fires.

 

  • Every other ship gets penalized for good aim. BBs get over pens/richochets,
  • CVs get long aiming times and that’s on top of low alpha weapons and torpedoes that rarely cause floods.
  • DDs get slow torpedo reloads and unless they completely surprise your ship there’s a good chance you can evade the torpedoes and

 

What do Cruisers get as a penalty? Nothing. In fact they get a bonus in that the more they hit your superstructure and deck they can cause a fire.

The fix is to penalize cruiser weapons the same way every other ships has been in WG.

 

All NON PENETRATING superstructure hits will have zero effect on a ships HP pool

All NON Penetrating HE Shells Superstructure hits will cause ZERO fires

All HE shells NON Penetrating hits on deck will get a regular fire chance 

All HE shells Penetrating hits on deck will get a fire  chance buff of + 5% ( A reward to those who aim well )

 

In other words if your 6 inch shell doesn't penetrate the structure not only do you get no effect on the HP pool, you don't get fire either....and that is fair.

 

Edited by Anij
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Most cruisers have high fire rate. Just look at the Atlanta or the Cleveland cruisers. The rule goes, low caliber, higher fire rate. Also, players have perks to their ships.

Edited by Sgt_Something_

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15 minutes ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

I don't think you know what a super cruiser is.

 

Maybe this is what the OP is referring to.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Anij said:

The problem with Cruisers and especially super cruisers like the Smolensk and Minotaur is as follows

lets just agree to disagree that your definition of super cruiser compared to everyone else's is vastly different.

29 minutes ago, Anij said:

So essentially both in theory and practice a Pensacola Tier 6 even though it has a lower rate of fire can whittle down or burn any Tier 10 BB down with a 14km-15km range and that’s just wrong.

if any BB allows itself to be burned downed by a Pensacola, the problem is not the Pensacola, the problem is the BB player not taking the opportunity to farm free citadels.

31 minutes ago, Anij said:

Montana-->12 x 16 inch x 2 Salvos = 24 shells at 16 km assuming a 30% hit rate= 8 hits – 4 over pens/richochet= 4 effective hits

 

Minotaur-->10x 6 inch x 18 shells/min per gun = 180 shells in 60 seconds = 30% hit rate at 16km =54 hits

if a light cruiser puts out the same amount of shells down range per minute as a BB, that light cruiser is probably a piece of carp. Thank you for telling us that a light cruiser fires faster than a BB and sends more shells down  range.

35 minutes ago, Anij said:

At 16km they cannot hit consistently which keeps them out of my gun range and in fact most BBs cant consistently hit anything at that range. 1 salvo you get 3 hits and next salvo you miss even though the target hasn't changed course. Once they are inside the 15km marker I really don’t worry about them till the range is down to 11-13km and that’s more my fault than any skill on their part.

This may be true if you're talking about most T5 and 6 BBs, but some T6s (Warspite, Arizona) some  T7s (Nagato, Sinop on a good day) and most T8 on up BBs can easily hit targets 16km out

Also, how can a ship with no HE shells and no secondaries start fires? And there is no way a proficient BB player would allow himself to be farmed by a Smolensk, Mino, or any light cruiser willingly. He'll either turn away, or shoot the target, probably killing it or doing so much damage that cruiser will have no impact for the rest of the match.

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29 minutes ago, Stand_Alone97 said:

How do you cause fires with the Minotaur? :cap_popcorn:

 

13 minutes ago, GhostSwordsman said:

Secondaries, duh! :cap_book:

Duh! for yourself.  Minotaur does not have secondaries.

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32 minutes ago, Kapitan_Wuff said:

I don't think you know what a super cruiser is.

This. Super cruisers are those that are, well, you know...super. Ones that have biga** guns, ones that are BBs in all but name. Smolensk and Mino aren't super cruisers. Mino and Smol both struggle to deal damage unless you actually sit there and let them farm you. Also, Mino doesn't have HE. 

 

Mino's guns don't worry me, but those 10 10km torps per side sure do.

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16 minutes ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

This. Super cruisers are those that are, well, you know...super. Ones that have biga** guns

So the Pensacola is a super cruiser for tier six?

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1 hour ago, Anij said:

The problem with Cruisers and especially super cruisers like the Smolensk and Minotaur is as follows.

 

1-Massive rate of fire

2-Super accurate guns

3-High Fire chance however that’s related to the ROF.

 

Montana-->12 x 16 inch x 2 Salvos = 24 shells at 16 km assuming a 30% hit rate= 8 hits – 4 over pens/richochet= 4 effective hits

 

Minotaur-->10x 6 inch x 18 shells/min per gun = 180 shells in 60 seconds = 30% hit rate at 16km =54 hits

 

These are the 2 main problems 

First from what I see here the rate of fire is not the problem even though I am willing to bet that the 30% accuracy at 16km is probably off by 5% so that would give us 63 hits but its not just about hitting the target. At best the average BB at 16km with 2 salvos will score between 6-12 hits but at least half of those are meaningless since they will over pen or richochet.

 

The issue with the Minotaur/Smolensk and other HE high ROF ships is that every hit means something. If it doesn’t start a fire it whittles down your HP pool because majority of the hits are on the superstructure and equipment on deck. In fact the ability to cause fires rather consistently is the cherry on top of the cake but it really isn’t necessary. A Minotaur and other ships like her can sink any ship without any flooding and I am willing to bet they can sink a ship without causing a fire or even scoring 1 citadel. For sure it will take a while but given the rate of fire and very good accuracy it probably doesn't take as much time as we think. Its possible WG may have missed or under estimated just how over effective these ships are. That’s why its so dangerous for any ship to venture into the firing range of the Super Cruisers and why teams are reluctant to push.

 

Some common fixes have been argued such as:

  • Reduce the accuracy of the Super cruisers guns. Given the high ROF these ships could use a dispersion nerf.
  • Reduce the fire chance

 

I am not too keen on either of these but lets look at it another way

 

Look I drive a Pensacola and when I see a Lenin, Texas, New York, New Mexico the story goes like this…

 

Your totally screwed! You can run but you are done! And that’s a Tier 6 cruiser with no armor and I take immense joy in hunting BB players down like chickens in a cage. Now the argument is they can blow you out of the water. Yes they can but usually its highly unlilkely..why?

 

At 16km they cannot hit consistently which keeps them out of my gun range and in fact most BBs cant consistently hit anything at that range. 1 salvo you get 3 hits and next salvo you miss even though the target hasn't changed course. Once they are inside the 15km marker I really don’t worry about them till the range is down to 11-13km and that’s more my fault than any skill on their part.

 

So essentially both in theory and practice a Pensacola Tier 6 even though it has a lower rate of fire can whittle down or burn any Tier 10 BB down with a 14km-15km range and that’s just wrong.

 

Cruisers have high ROF guns that can saturate a target with dozens of hits in a minute, every hit does minimal damage but it does eat the target HP pool and on top of that the fire mechanic works in such a way that you can cause 2-3 fires.

 

  • Every other ship gets penalized for good aim. BBs get over pens/richochets,
  • CVs get long aiming times and that’s on top of low alpha weapons and torpedoes that rarely cause floods.
  • DDs get slow torpedo reloads and unless they completely surprise your ship there’s a good chance you can evade the torpedoes and

 

What do Cruisers get as a penalty? Nothing. In fact they get a bonus in that the more they hit your superstructure and deck they can cause a fire.

The fix is to penalize cruiser weapons the same way every other ships has been in WG.

 

All NON PENETRATING superstructure hits will have zero effect on a ships HP pool

All NON Penetrating HE Shells Superstructure hits will cause ZERO fires

All HE shells NON Penetrating hits on deck will get a regular fire chance 

All HE shells Penetrating hits on deck will get a fire  chance buff of + 5% ( A reward to those who aim well )

 

In other words if your 6 inch shell doesn't penetrate the structure not only do you get no effect on the HP pool, you don't get fire either....and that is fair.

 

I agree with your concept... I've been saying this for years too. 

But just to be clear: Super Cruisers are Alaska/Yoshino/Azuma/etc ... Smolensk and Mino are light cruisers. You are right of course that these cruisers firing light caliber shells are high ROF significantly outdamage any other ship (particularly if using HE..which minotaur does not have). 

All light cruisers are damn easy to kill.... except smolensk. Its soviet bias code has it immune to BB citadel hits unless the BB hits the water a pixel below the waterline..and we all know the chances of that happening lol. 

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2 hours ago, Stand_Alone97 said:

How do you cause fires with the Minotaur? :cap_popcorn:

secondary guns....it is possible

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1 hour ago, Sgt_Something_ said:

So the Pensacola is a super cruiser for tier 6

Super cruisers are typically the T9/10 cruisers with larger then 8" guns, like Alaska.

That said, you do have Graf Spee at T6 which could be an arguably low tier super cruiser.

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1 minute ago, Warped_1 said:

Super cruisers are typically the T9/10 cruisers with larger then 8" guns, like Alaska.

That said, you do have Graf Spee at T6 which could be an arguably low tier super cruiser.

Larger then 8", then its a heavy cruiser?

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5 minutes ago, db4100 said:

secondary guns....it is possible

 

4 minutes ago, Sgt_Something_ said:

Secondaries fire only HE shells correct?

Mostly HE, some do shoot AP.  But upon further review the Minotaur does not have secondary's just like the Worchester.

Edited by db4100

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Larger then 6" is a heavy cruiser.  Typically heavy cruisers were 8".  People started getting confused with how to describe the ships like Alaska.  Is it a heavy cruiser?  Battlecruiser?  Big Cruiser?  In game they are just generally called super cruisers. 

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1 minute ago, 1SneakyDevil said:

The OP is trying to become one of the legendary complainers of this game. Everything is an issue for him.

lol

 

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1 hour ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

This. Super cruisers are those that are, well, you know...super. Ones that have biga** guns, ones that are BBs in all but name. Smolensk and Mino aren't super cruisers. Mino and Smol both struggle to deal damage unless you actually sit there and let them farm you. Also, Mino doesn't have HE. 

 

Mino's guns don't worry me, but those 10 10km torps per side sure do.

1 hour ago, Sgt_Something_ said:

So the Pensacola is a super cruiser for tier six?

 

He was talking capital ship size guns like the 300mm+ guns on Alaska, Azuma, Stalingrad, et al that are also fast and usually with armor belts to defeat 203mm guns. Graf Spee would not count as it was a commerce raider and had thin armor.

 

2 minutes ago, Sgt_Something_ said:

Larger then 8", then its a heavy cruiser?

2 minutes ago, Warped_1 said:

Larger then 6" is a heavy cruiser.  Typically heavy cruisers were 8".  People started getting confused with how to describe the ships like Alaska.  Is it a heavy cruiser?  Battlecruiser?  Big Cruiser?  In game they are just generally called super cruisers. 

 

Light and heavy cruisers were never really official names, but short cut names. The Washington and London Naval treaties broke cruisers into two sections. Those with guns of 6.1" (155mm) and lighter and those with guns from over 6.1" to 8" (203mm) guns. The treaties only allowed guns over 8" on capital ships, not including carriers. 

 

Only the UK, US, France, Italy, and Japan signed on to the treaties, so in game that would be the IJN, US, UK, FR, and Commonwealth nations. Germany was restricted under the Versailles Treaty. Russia, Pan-Asia, Pan-EU and Pan-Am were not under any treaties that I know of. After the countries left the treaties, gun sizes on what ever you called a cruiser was up to the country building the ship. Here 155mm and less in the cruiser class is usually called a CL and everthing 156mm and up in the cruiser class is usually called a CA.

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2 hours ago, Sgt_Something_ said:

So the Pensacola is a super cruiser for tier six?

No.

 

8 inch is not biga**. Those are regular cruiser guns. Many cruisers at T5 and 6 have 8 inch guns.

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