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Legio_X_

I seriously can't wait for T10 Italian cruiser

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The problem with the IT CAs so far is concealment. You can’t miss these things coming, you are not going to sneak up on a smole, DD or anything else.

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Interesting... Lots of negative comments about the Duce's Regia Marina cruiser line, but a few highly positive. Looks like some "extreme ships", like Smolensk or Kleber are succesful as players learn to use very easily how to use the few exceptional pros until the others learn about the cons... Maybe Italians are more balanced and learning curve is longer?

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5 minutes ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Interesting... Lots of negative comments about the Duce's Regia Marina cruiser line, but a few highly positive. Looks like some "extreme ships", like Smolensk or Kleber are succesful as players learn to use very easily how to use the few exceptional pros until the others learn about the cons... Maybe Italians are more balanced and learning curve is longer?

Italians are try hard mode. Want to play easy mode, jump into a Russian ship. Nothing more i like than a challenge

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The only thing that makes Venezia worth playing is the 15 guns.   The problem with Italian SAP cruisers is an atrociously long reload, poor concealment, and inability to DOT a target.  

The ships actually handle very well.  They are very nice to drive and maneuver. 

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1 minute ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

The only thing that makes Venezia worth playing is the 15 guns.   The problem with Italian SAP cruisers is an atrociously long reload, poor concealment, and inability to DOT a target.  

The ships actually handle very well.  They are very nice to drive and maneuver. 

This^^^^^^

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43 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

15 203s with SAP and no overpening [edited]. Meet your match Smolensk!

Same! I've got Amalfi built up with enough experience to pick up Brindisi on release day. I'll use all the flags and camos to shoot right up to Venezia in short order.

These cruisers should be great against a few of the toughest ships to deal with like Kleber, Smolensk, and Henri but without creating power creep, at least in theory.

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12 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

The only thing that makes Venezia worth playing is the 15 guns.   The problem with Italian SAP cruisers is an atrociously long reload, poor concealment, and inability to DOT a target.  

I think they are great. These ships work outside the box and arent just redundant like many ships have been.

12 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

The ships actually handle very well.  They are very nice to drive and maneuver. 

The smoke is great as well as the torpedoes. Yes, the guns can seem sort of [edited] until you get the hang of them but once you do, you'll enjoy them far more.

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5 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

Same! I've got Amalfi built up with enough experience to pick up Brindisi on release day. I'll use all the flags and camos to shoot right up to Venezia in short order.

These cruisers should be great against a few of the toughest ships to deal with like Kleber, Smolensk, and Henri but without creating power creep, at least in theory.

Im just gonna skip the T9 and go straight to T10. I have 400k+ on the Amalfi right now. 

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59 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

15 203s with SAP and no overpening bullcrap. Meet your match Smolensk!

You mean the Smolensk that can sail up to your broadside 10km from you undetected, open fire, smoke up and you can't hydro or see, but it can see you if you fire, and who gets off 7 salvos to your 1?  That "soon to be dead" smolensk?

 

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2 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

You mean the Smolensk that can sail up to your broadside 10km from you undetected, open fire, smoke up and you can't hydro or see, but it can see you if you fire, and who gets off 7 salvos to your 1?  That "soon to be dead" smolensk?

 

Yeah Smol is very tough to crack especially around an island. Almost impossible unless they move. I have been trying to use Kron and the 12.5 radar to root them out but you can't be exposed for long or you have 3 fires. 

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1 minute ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Or Smolensk angles and the SAP all starts bouncing

Fine, then he opens himself up for someone else to blap him. 

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1 hour ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

 The problem with Italian SAP cruisers is an atrociously long reload, poor concealment, and inability to DOT a target.  

SAP is still double the alpha of any other cruiser with HE and higher DPM even with the slower reload by as much as a third against IJN CAs (which are at the top in HE damage), that more than makes up for the lack of fires in some situations and why Italians have such slow reload.

41 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Or Smolensk angles and the SAP all starts bouncing

Angling against SAP is impossible unless the target is completely bow on. Even then just like the Minotaur, SAP can still get OK damage in.

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2 hours ago, Legio_X_ said:

Italians are try hard mode. Want to play easy mode, jump into a Russian ship. Nothing more i like than a challenge

Even Russian ships actually take some brains to not show broadside in.  US ships are easy mode, particularly the CLs or Massachusetts.

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Food for thought: Mogami has 5x3 15.5cm guns, the same 15 barrels, and has been in the game for 5 years.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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1 hour ago, Legio_X_ said:

Fine, then he opens himself up for someone else to blap him. 

That scenario is a little bit off.  Sure it could happen but the chances of it and the circumstances for it to happen are few and far to between.  Reminds me of when we've talked about CVs on past. HAHA Sorry I had to.

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5 hours ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

The only thing that makes Venezia worth playing is the 15 guns.   The problem with Italian SAP cruisers is an atrociously long reload, poor concealment, and inability to DOT a target.  

The ships actually handle very well.  They are very nice to drive and maneuver. 

Very much this.  I earned Amalfi and all the others from the early-release event.  Their Rudder Shift is actually mediocre but they're fast Cruisers.  The Smoke will help them at times to control engagements, etc.  When you get to Zara and Amalfi, the accuracy, shell arcs, shell flight times are actually very good.  But the problems you noted are the heart of their issues.  The worst case scenario for them is when the reds are pushing their direction, and they are all sharply angled or bow on.  Now you're really f--ked.

 

A Myoko can kite a push, drop torpedoes in stealth (a narrow window) that can land good damage (3x4 torps, 17.2k damage at 62kts)and maybe some floods, and capitalize with HE + Fires.  Zara has 2x3 torps for 12.6k damage at 51kts.  Either way, a "Normal" Cruiser can burn the faces of pursuers and make people dig into their DCP and limited charges of Repair Party.  If dealing with a fellow Cruiser, Fires on them are dangerous because most Cruisers lack Repair Party.  The ITA Cruisers can't do that.

 

The Concealment thing is also a sore point, something that compounds the problems with ITA Cruiser SAP.  IMO, RN CL AP faces pretty much the same issues as ITA Cruiser SAP with bow on / sharply angled ships shrugging off most of their damage.  On paper, RN CL AP and ITA SAP should penetrate the Superstructure with no problems.  The reality is things like the bow, deck, conning tower, main battery turrets block many of those attempts and cause non-pens, bounces.

 

But the RN CL has other things to help out their peculiar shells.  They got ROF because of the use CL guns.  They also got the best general Cruiser Stealth for their tiers.  They also have smoke to use offensively an lots of shell damage.

 

I lost count how many times I played along in my BB or something, and then a Fiji, Edinburgh, Neptune, or Minotaur started spamming shells hitting the side of my superstructure because those ships sneaked their way to a flanking position, without tipping their hand at all in what they were trying to do.  I've also been on the flip side of that using my RN CLs to get good damage in such a manner with such position.

 

And if things got too heated there for the RN CL, you got Smoke, great concealment to let you bail out.

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I am also looking forward to the T10.  I find the T5 is poor.  The Trento is a little better, but I am enjoying the Zara.  I have not won Amalfi, so I am building my xp on Zara for that.  From what I am reading, the Amalfi is a little better comparatively speaking, and Im hoping for the same for T9 and T10.

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8 hours ago, SyndicatedINC said:

You mean the Smolensk that can sail up to your broadside 10km from you undetected, open fire, smoke up and you can't hydro or see, but it can see you if you fire, and who gets off 7 salvos to your 1?  That "soon to be dead" smolensk?

 

So I pop smoke and sail away dumping torps while he does some harmless HE spam.

 

Although your right the Smolensk is complete 4chan autism of a ship that still needs a nerf.

9 hours ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Interesting... Lots of negative comments about the Duce's Regia Marina cruiser line, but a few highly positive. Looks like some "extreme ships", like Smolensk or Kleber are succesful as players learn to use very easily how to use the few exceptional pros until the others learn about the cons... Maybe Italians are more balanced and learning curve is longer?

Italians have a special playstyle, very few seem to be picking it up. Abruzzi veterans will adapt quickly but considering how many people don't appreciate how ridiculously good the Abruzzi is....

I'm betting most people quit the line before tier 10. Sad.

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15 hours ago, Stand_Alone97 said:

So I pop smoke and sail away dumping torps while he does some harmless HE spam.

Except the gun bloom through smoke is so large that the Smolensk will still see you, even though you popped smoke, and the italian armor is so thin the smolensk will get about 20 AP citadels on you before you can make your turn to dump torps and run away.  HE spam may be light, but full damage AP isn't.

This is the problem people keep bringing up.  The full speed smoke is useless when the smoke firing penalty is hideously large.    Basically unless you are sailing around at the back and just want to drop detection from a max range BB shooting at you, the smoke doesn't help.     However given that so many ships which can take the Italian cruiser on in a 1v1 with ease have better detection, the italian can never safely push in, without risk that its smoke will do nothing but blind it to an enemy that still has full view of it.

 

15 hours ago, Stand_Alone97 said:

Italians have a special playstyle, very few seem to be picking it up. Abruzzi veterans will adapt quickly but considering how many people don't appreciate how ridiculously good the Abruzzi is....

I'm betting most people quit the line before tier 10. Sad.

I love both Ducas, however their playstyle is not the same as the tech tree italian line.  For one, they have regular HE with decently fast RoF.  The excel at peppering ships and landing DoT right after damage con has been used.    The tech tree italians have slow RoF and no regular HE so no DoT.  Additionally the regular HE means angling is irrelevant, however SAP drops off in effectiveness when the target angles to you.

Secondly the Ducas have a a higher top speed and swifter accel and decel than the tech tree italians, meaning that the Ducas are both better at open water kiting and throttle jockeying jukes.  Additionally the Ducas have faster rudder shift than their tech tree counterparts meaning that the tight turning circles of the tech tree ships take longer to make use of and thus are not as effective at dodging incoming shells and torps as the Ducas, despite having larger turning circles.

Third the Ducas have a faster turret traverse than their tech tree counterparts, meaning they can keep shells on target when engaged in maximum evasive maneuvers, whereas the tech tree ships cannot even with expert marksman.  

Fourth the Ducas have a lower detection range both by all accounts including air, sea, and out of smoke than their tech tree counterparts.   Allowing them to get in closer to targets to make use of their torps (even stealth torp effectively) and making it more difficult for enemies to keep them detected when they are trying to disengage.   Allowing more opportunities to ambush and fewer chances for enemies to ambush them.   

Fifth the utility of the Ducas is much higher with their consumables including hydro and defensive AA. Lack of hydro alone prevents the tech tree ships from being effective hunters of the very ship class they excel at killing.   Coupled with their large size and poor torpedo protection and it makes them more vulnerable than any other cruiser of their tier to torpedoes, which isn't fair given they are already the most vulnerable to shells as well.

Bottom line is the Ducas can control map areas and score meaningful damage that impacts the game.  The tech tree italian cruisers can not.   They can score big games sometimes, but it will be very rare that they are allowed to impact the actual game outcome.    So expect to see some huge damage losses and extremely low damage victories.    Quite contrary to the Ducas.


 

22 hours ago, NeoRussia said:

SAP is still double the alpha of any other cruiser with HE and higher DPM even with the slower reload by as much as a third against IJN CAs (which are at the top in HE damage), that more than makes up for the lack of fires in some situations and why Italians have such slow reload.

Angling against SAP is impossible unless the target is completely bow on. Even then just like the Minotaur, SAP can still get OK damage in.

Strange I wasn't aware that zero damage was considered Ok damage, or that 60% of norm was considered double the alpha of other cruiser HE, or that lack of fires and a slow reload are needed to compensate for 16% max damage.

Must be new math.   

there-is-only-one-theory-in-maths_o_643017.jpg.b4726ac07541533e6ac4b4789c1d54f6.jpg

Edited by SyndicatedINC
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11 minutes ago, SyndicatedINC said:

Strange I wasn't aware that zero damage was considered Ok damage, or that 60% of norm was considered double the alpha of other cruiser HE, or that lack of fires and a slow reload are needed to compensate for 16% max damage.

Must be new math.   

If the shells go where you want them to you're never doing 0 damage with SAP. Here vs a almost bow on BB with superstructure saturated and only getting 3 shell hits:

Spoiler

cf953774fd.jpg

Comparing SAP vs HE of 203mm cruisers IJN vs RM

T5 Genova: 11757 T5 Furutaka: 6000. Difference: x1.9

T6 Trento: 11757 T6 Aoba: 6000. Same difference

Some of the higher tier ships have an even bigger difference, Zara is closer to Myoko in alpha damage but their reload is pretty much the same so Zara is still on top.

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1 minute ago, NeoRussia said:

If the shells go where you want them to you're never doing 0 damage with SAP. Here vs a almost bow on BB with superstructure saturated and only getting 3 shell hits:

  Hide contents

cf953774fd.jpg

 

So this is a case of incorrect math.  

1) NY with 36285 HP is not a saturated super structure, as the 3 shells for 3813 is the damage of 3 shells doing full damage passing into the first saturation threshhold.   

2) The ship is 20 degrees to you which places most of its superstructure surfaces and bow under the richochet threshhold, so this is not angled in to the point of causing the bounces people are complaining about.

3) A New York is a very thinly armored BB, that is penetrated by same tier DDs.  Higher tier BBs that are immune to equivalent DDs start producing less and less areas that their same tier italian Cruisers can penetrate, and those that they can (such as the bow) are easily angled away (at about 12-14 degrees angle).   

4) Your range is under 10km, less than your detection range, meaning at this range you are already being engaged by the BB, and are easily hit with shell flight times being so short your dodging ability is minimal, and your armor wont defend against.   Even then you only land 5 shells of a salvo, with 3 doing damage, and no chance of DoT, whereas within the same 20 seconds any tier 5 cruiser would be able to do comparable or more damage at the same range, and all but the UK would be able to start fires to deal with the saturation effects or angling. 


5) Target is a stationary bot, yet your own screenshot shows that 5 minutes in and 48 shell hits and you only scored just under 27k damage That is just about over 3 minutes of continuous shooting.   Repeat the experiment with the same setup except every other Tier 5 cruiser and continuous fire for max RoF HE for over 3 minutes on the same 2 targets at the same angles and between the alpha and fires they score more damage, usually MUCH more.   

6) The argument is also about useful damage.  The SAP damage is repairable at the same rate as HE but without the additional DoT of fire.   It is not AP level damage in terms of repair.   On top of that it drops off as saturation occurs, and angle gets severe.  Sail directly in front of the NY (zero degree angle), and try to kill it with guns only.   chances are against a human player with repair party you can fire for 20 minutes straight and not kill it.  No other cruiser can fire for 20 minutes at a same tier BB and not kill it after 20 minutes.   

7) Your alpha math ignores the percentage of bounces.  Unless facing a target broadside (where it would be better to use AP anyway) you are facing an angled target.   Practical experience of sap over hundreds of battles has shown us that the shatter rate is the same as for the Aoba and Furutaka, but the bounce rate is between 25%-35% given the random dispersion of shells and the angled surfaces and armor plates of turrets etc.   These are shots which land zero damage hits for SAP but full damage hits fro HE.    When you then factor in the RoF and Fire chance their is no comparison of the damage over the course of a minute, let alone 2 minutes.    


If the alpha was massive, say SAP did citadel type damage (ie 100% shell damage and repairable for only 10%) then yes you would have a valid point.  However as it stands SAP is worse HE, much worse HE.  It is HE that trades its bonus damage (fire) for slightly higher alpha, but much higher chance of scoring zero damage ricochets, all to also be given a worse reload.   

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