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Shannon_Lindsey

The truth about CVs now.

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My clan mates and I have taken up training together after realizing we aren't coherent enough as a team to even succeed at the lowest level of clan battles. That said, our CV specialist recently returned after a long hiatus that had nothing to do with the game, and we decided to test out current CV effectiveness against ships that can stay in formation together. I should emphasize that this is a very good CV driver I am talking about, as 100k damage games are common for him, even now. The setup was this. We ran as a formation of three ships, a BB and two escorts. All he had to do was sink one of us in 10 minutes. After a lot of experimenting, we discovered he couldn't sink any of us as long as we stayed in overlapping AA formation, even though he was in Enterprise and we were all using tier 6 ships, even including a DD at one point. After this, we conducted one more test. I jumped over to CV to join him for a few battles, and even with two CVs, we were having difficulty succeeding as long as formation was held. For our last test, we both ran Midways, while our clan mates ran North Carolina, Mogami, and Atago. We nearly sank Mogami, but were unable to finish it within the 10 minute limit, despite focusing it the entire time.

Our conclusion is that CVs are only seeing any success in randoms right now due to player's lack of understanding how to work against them efficiently. If CVs did enter clan battles, they would be great for scouting, spotting, and cap resets, but wouldn't consistently inflict enough damage.

It's also a pretty strong piece of evidence that people who complain about CVs are...well...Git Gud?

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1 hour ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

My clan mates and I have taken up training together after realizing we aren't coherent enough as a team to even succeed at the lowest level of clan battles. That said, our CV specialist recently returned after a long hiatus that had nothing to do with the game, and we decided to test out current CV effectiveness against ships that can stay in formation together. I should emphasize that this is a very good CV driver I am talking about, as 100k damage games are common for him, even now. The setup was this. We ran as a formation of three ships, a BB and two escorts. All he had to do was sink one of us in 10 minutes. After a lot of experimenting, we discovered he couldn't sink any of us as long as we stayed in overlapping AA formation, even though he was in Enterprise and we were all using tier 6 ships, even including a DD at one point. After this, we conducted one more test. I jumped over to CV to join him for a few battles, and even with two CVs, we were having difficulty succeeding as long as formation was held. For our last test, we both ran Midways, while our clan mates ran North Carolina, Mogami, and Atago. We nearly sank Mogami, but were unable to finish it within the 10 minute limit, despite focusing it the entire time.

Our conclusion is that CVs are only seeing any success in randoms right now due to player's lack of understanding how to work against them efficiently. If CVs did enter clan battles, they would be great for scouting, spotting, and cap resets, but wouldn't consistently inflict enough damage.

It's also a pretty strong piece of evidence that people who complain about CVs are...well...Git Gud?

Interesting facts. It's a post about AA not CVs. 

However, that is the concept of AA in the game, if ships stay grouped or let's say, "aware of their AA overlap" and "play AA", planes can difficultly attack them. Normally, individual ships should not be able to wipe out entire squadrons.

I guess that so many players whined about CVs, that individual ships AA was buffed far too much. Somehow, lots of players "refuse" to play AA.

One of the reasons, but it's just an opinion, is that the game UI doesn't show how AA actually operates. Normally, the minimap should show the AA overlap, or anywhere else on the UI should be displayed the "AA protection", for example a simple bar would show somewhere the AA protection...

... Currently DDs AA is ridiculous. DDs AA should be provided by CAs or friendly CVs dropping fighters, CV and DD teaming beeing very effective.

One thing that could be implemented is a fighter air cover around the CV. Ships at a certain distance of a CV are protected by the CV fighters patrolling around the CV. This would push the CV drivers to stay close by the fleet.

Just ideas.

Your post is really the best post I read about AA.

 

Edited by franz_von_goltz

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interesting fact the only clans recommending cv in clan battles are those that do not reach the highest levels, brutal honesty but the truth hurts

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I think your experiment conclusions are distorted.

The get gud in CVs argument is very distorted...

Saying Randoms and CB are the same battle types and the results will not varied is also distorted thinking...

Any "evidence" based on distorted views to begin with, would be considered hearsay evidence in the court of public opinion.

I hate to break it to you, but must CV players (new and experienced) already know the CV basics of not flying into a the AA of a fleet of ships...

That is not way people fail at CVs, Its not the MAIN reason as your hypnosis experiment statement  makes out to be..  Nice try though.

Edited by Navalpride33
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As a non-clan random CV player, I can vouch for the fact that a team that knows how to maintain effective AA bubbles can make a CV player's life very difficult.  Of course, getting twelve players to all work together...well...there are always outliers. And those are the ones that get targeted by the CV.  Otherwise, it's pretty much spotting early with an occasional strike on a picket ship...keeping squadrons healthy for the mid to late game when things start to thin out and more chances come up.

Also, I've noticed that when a team does well with AA defense, there is always the DD that thinks it can sweep wide and catch the CV napping.  Ironically, the strong AA bubbles just make it MORE LIKELY the DD is going to get caught.  Because after the first two sorties, if I haven't located all the DDs (and especially if I can't get a decent strike on the red AA blobs), I'll sweep the perimeter.  And when I find that DD...well....that's the proverbial outlier that will get 100% of  my attention.  

Edited by Soshi_Sone
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3 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

I should emphasize that this is a very good CV driver I am talking about, as 100k damage games are common for him, even now.

I don't believe it. 100k damage games in a CV? Even now? Ridiculous. I've literally never heard of such a high damage number being attained by a CV. I want proof, honestly.

3 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

It's also a pretty strong piece of evidence that people who complain about CVs are...well...Git Gud?

Also, what? No. This is literally the most anecdotal "evidence" in the history of the universe. How on earth is that "strong"?

And what is that supposed to mean exactly? "People who complain about CVs are git gud"? Hello?

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58 minutes ago, Sweaty_Anime_Girls said:

I don't believe it. 100k damage games in a CV? Even now? Ridiculous. I've literally never heard of such a high damage number being attained by a CV. I want proof, honestly.

In a competitive environment or randoms?  The Youtuber TopTier routinely breaks the 100k damage barrier in his carriers.  He plays ranked/randoms and, of course, does not always win...   

Edited by wglattli
Added a small blurb for better context.

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It's easy to maintain formations when you don't have DDs firing torps at you that you have to dodge. Or when you don't have to worry about presenting broadsides to the red big guns.

Being in a AA defensive formation is good if you can maintain it in a fluid battle situation. It might work in Clan battles with a team that practices together but almost impossible to do in a Random pick up game.

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3 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

It's also a pretty strong piece of evidence that people who complain about CVs are...well...Git Gud?

Yes, of course. All those good players who ditched the game when the devs rammed CVs down our throats were clearly not good enough. 

Guess what: when you adapt to [edited], it's still [edited]. That principle never changes, no matter how many rationalizations CV drivers can evolve.

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Because yes, I came to this big gun game to crowd around other ships hiding in the back in till the CV runs out of planes, so I can then have a big gun battle in ships with big guns.

The problem with CV's is not the AA or the ships, it's the matching up of one CV player that is good vs the other CV player that is not so good.

CV's can effect the game on a bigger scale then any other class of ship in the game, so any mismatch ruins the match for all the rest of the players.

It was like this before the RW, and it is back to that problem now.

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There are enough problems in clan battles as it stands now without CVs.

Bringing CVs into clan battles would make it even worse. It would kill clan battles for quite a few clans.

Everything already said above about CVs in randoms is true. A good one v. a bad one in a random can totally skew the game.

And then there's the whole thing where the CV is the last ship remaining for 4 minutes in the back corner of the map against 7 ships. THAT is so annoying. Just end the game when a lone CV is up against five or more ships.

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5 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

My clan mates and I have taken up training together after realizing we aren't coherent enough as a team to even succeed at the lowest level of clan battles. That said, our CV specialist recently returned after a long hiatus that had nothing to do with the game, and we decided to test out current CV effectiveness against ships that can stay in formation together. I should emphasize that this is a very good CV driver I am talking about, as 100k damage games are common for him, even now. The setup was this. We ran as a formation of three ships, a BB and two escorts. All he had to do was sink one of us in 10 minutes. After a lot of experimenting, we discovered he couldn't sink any of us as long as we stayed in overlapping AA formation, even though he was in Enterprise and we were all using tier 6 ships, even including a DD at one point. After this, we conducted one more test. I jumped over to CV to join him for a few battles, and even with two CVs, we were having difficulty succeeding as long as formation was held. For our last test, we both ran Midways, while our clan mates ran North Carolina, Mogami, and Atago. We nearly sank Mogami, but were unable to finish it within the 10 minute limit, despite focusing it the entire time.

Our conclusion is that CVs are only seeing any success in randoms right now due to player's lack of understanding how to work against them efficiently. If CVs did enter clan battles, they would be great for scouting, spotting, and cap resets, but wouldn't consistently inflict enough damage.

It's also a pretty strong piece of evidence that people who complain about CVs are...well...Git Gud?

Beautifully written. And so very true. CV's are somewhat lackluster in their damage output and can be easily circumvented by teamwork. It's usually people who refuse to even familiarize themselves with CV play that typically are the most vocal opponents to them.

The problem is that nobody uses teamwork and just sorta wants WG to buff their ships in such a manner they can solo the entire red team...

+1

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4 hours ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Interesting facts. It's a post about AA not CVs. 

However, that is the concept of AA in the game, if ships stay grouped or let's say, "aware of their AA overlap" and "play AA", planes can difficultly attack them. Normally, individual ships should not be able to wipe out entire squadrons.

I guess that so many players whined about CVs, that individual ships AA was buffed far too much. Somehow, lots of players "refuse" to play AA.

One of the reasons, but it's just an opinion, is that the game UI doesn't show how AA actually operates. Normally, the minimap should show the AA overlap, or anywhere else on the UI should be displayed the "AA protection", for example a simple bar would show somewhere the AA protection...

... Currently DDs AA is ridiculous. DDs AA should be provided by CAs or friendly CVs dropping fighters, CV and DD teaming beeing very effective.

One thing that could be implemented is a fighter air cover around the CV. Ships at a certain distance of a CV are protected by the CV fighters patrolling around the CV. This would push the CV drivers to stay close by the fleet.

Just ideas.

Your post is really the best post I read about AA.

 

Problem as I have stated in other threads is the fact that standard base AA levels have to be able to do at least something to Aircraft as far as at least damaging them and perhaps an occasional plane shot down to be fair and balanced. And this goes for average or below average AA ships. Now if players decide to go full AA build as a decent number of players have thanks to CV rework, then planes really start falling from the sky which can be slightly compensated by having fully built up CV and CV captain, which makes CVs more costly to get fielded, much like German secondary build BBs that require 17-19 point captains before they really shine.

And as far as DD AA goes as unfortunate for the CV as it may seem, having AA being decent or good for DDs is essential as not every CV will spot for the team so DDs often have to do it as one of their jobs, and some DDs have to move up to do stealth torpedo attacks which is what their job is. While other DDs have to roles of sinking enemy DDs, harassing enemy with their guns, and capping if possible. These things can be hard enough with the wide array of ships available, plus hydro, radar, and rapid HE or slow firing but hard hitting HE spamming ships.

Now if you add in a CV which has high speed planes to go and seek out DDs, then perma spot them by staying over them, following them wherever they go without much of any AA threat. This was proving to be game breaking as it essentially was rendering DDs unplayable, and you can’t always have a CA or BB right next you , especially with the shorter AA firing ranges the CV rework created. And if a DD can’t extend their position in a battle group far enough out, it leaves their team far more vulnerable to stealth torpedo attacks which can cause sever damage to a group of advancing ships that are close enough together and not enough heads up on incoming long range, torpedoes. Not to mention you may not be able to get the DD or DDs responsible spotted without a DD scouting for the team as some DDs can fire torpedoes even beyond Moskava/ Stalingrad Radar Range.

CVs now are still able to safely spot CAs and BBs without the danger of being shot down if they decide that’s what they want to do, but smart DDs you only get to spot them for more limited durations much like if you were using radar or hydro. And that is if the CV is not going on the offensive. Those rockets CV attack squadrons get really hurt DDs because of the sheer quantity of rockets in a salvo, and the diameter of the conical spread of the rockets fired. Which not only do the rockets pen the weak DD armor easily, they also frequently disable various modules. Went through most of a battle in my Gearing with only 2 turrets and 1 torpedo launcher thanks to getting other weapons systems destroyed.

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23 minutes ago, Lt_Newcastle said:

There are enough problems in clan battles as it stands now without CVs.

Bringing CVs into clan battles would make it even worse. It would kill clan battles for quite a few clans.

Everything already said above about CVs in randoms is true. A good one v. a bad one in a random can totally skew the game.

And then there's the whole thing where the CV is the last ship remaining for 4 minutes in the back corner of the map against 7 ships. THAT is so annoying. Just end the game when a lone CV is up against five or more ships.

Don’t worry, I can guarantee you will never have to deal with CVs in Clan Battles as long as your clan agrees not to use CVs. You unlike other battle modes that is the catch with CB, you have to have organized teams actually wanting to use CVs. And CV CB teams will go into Que with fully built up AA ships which will be a nightmare for CVs. The teams optimized ship to ship combat will go into que without needing to carry heavy AA defenses.

So it’s all well and good in theory to “Have CVs in Clan Battles”, but I doubt they will be used much at all since what Clans are going to be crazy enough to use the CVs? Your CV will either have to face toughest AA possible or else sit for hours in Que waiting for second CV clan to show up if the second clan ever does show up.

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9 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Beautifully written. And so very true. CV's are somewhat lackluster in their damage output and can be easily circumvented by teamwork. It's usually people who refuse to even familiarize themselves with CV play that typically are the most vocal opponents to them.

The problem is that nobody uses teamwork and just sorta wants WG to buff their ships in such a manner they can solo the entire red team...

Take the recent iteration of KOTS for example. Those guys are sucked and were unfamiliar with CVs, and their teamwork was garbage. No doubt that's why they didn't have CVs in KOTS this year, right?

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This is more about AA then cv performance. Today's cv realize on the mistakes of others to do great. Like camping behind island's or going solo. 

You would be shocked how many times I have dropped torps at a cruiser or bb just to have them go broadside to my teammates and boom. Hard to make a team work together in randoms so cv's will always have something to do be it dd hunter or solo ship hunting. I don't see that going down in clan battles players are to organized to make mistakes do a cv will be almost useless.

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6 minutes ago, Athrun2021 said:

This is more about AA then cv performance. Today's cv realize on the mistakes of others to do great. Like camping behind island's or going solo. 

You would be shocked how many times I have dropped torps at a cruiser or bb just to have them go broadside to my teammates and boom. Hard to make a team work together in randoms so cv's will always have something to do be it dd hunter or solo ship hunting. I don't see that going down in clan battles players are to organized to make mistakes do a cv will be almost useless.

Dis you watch the latest KOTS finals? During the between-match chats it was delightful to see Flamu and Tobi squirm in their seats whenever CV's in CB were brought up.

The biggest objection doesn't involve damage at all. The consensus among CC's and WG staff, as well as clan members, was that CV spotting would turn games of positional strategy into seagoing whack-a-mole. You know, like Randoms.

This points up the double standard at play here: CV's are OK for one game mode but not another?

Here's a revolutionary idea: fix what's not OK and level the field for everyone.

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This post by the OP is this forum in a nutshell: non-unicum players telling others to get better at the game and accept that CVs are actually good for the game. You never see a unicum advocating for CVs remaining in the game, why is that?

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30 minutes ago, Vector03 said:

This post by the OP is this forum in a nutshell: non-unicum players telling others to get better at the game and accept that CVs are actually good for the game. You never see a unicum advocating for CVs remaining in the game, why is that?

Because cv's have no counter. The only possible thing limiting cv's is the skill of the player playing the cv. If he's bad, then he'll complain about how "strong" aa is, if he's average, he'll complain about how "strong" overlapping aa is, If he's good he'll complain about the lack of alpha on cv torps, and if he's a legit unicom cv player, he'll complain about how his team dies before he can farm. Been here since the beginning of the game and this is easily the most broken iteration of cv's.

Edited by eagle_lance
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Players keep using the damage ability of CVs as an indication of strength.  It isn't.  It is as much about CVs spotting and causing ships to alter course so that other ships can do damage as it is about doing damage themselves.  CVs alter the game in ways that aren't fair to some ships.  If ships need to huddle up to survive against a CV, that's a problem too.  Players shouldn't have to abandon playing certain ships because they can't compete in a game that has a possibility of having a CV or 2 in it.

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The OP here is about 10% correct and 90% not. Multiple high-AA ships in formation are actually quite expensive to strike repeatedly. Note, expensive -- not difficult. There is no AA in the game that can stop the CV from striking, if he's willing to pay the cost in planes, and the mechanics used to achieve the strike don't change.

Most of the 90% incorrect, though, is that the OP claims that the "truth" about CVs is that an Enterprise can't strike three T6s with poor AA, and that's just silly.

Since the OP is arguing based on the performance of players under training room conditions, the skill of the players doing the testing is inherently part of the argument. CVs in particular have a "hockey stick" skill curve where effectiveness is a flat-ish line until a certain point, then skyrockets for high-skill players. This means that the skill of the CV test player is critical -- the entire argument rests on whether that person can bring out the CV's true potential or not.

And from what I can see, the "very good" CV player the OP is staking this claim on... I'm sorry, just isn't actually as good as the OP claims. I don't want to harp on the details, because it's not like the CV player asked the OP to make this post, but I'm seeing a 49.3% WR in Enterprise and 50% WR in Midway (the two CVs tested). These are not numbers that suggest the CV player was able to do everything that the ship is capable of. It is therefore not a good indication of what CVs can or can't do. Sorry, but I don't think the claim in the OP passes muster.

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7 hours ago, Sweaty_Anime_Girls said:

I don't believe it. 100k damage games in a CV? Even now? Ridiculous. I've literally never heard of such a high damage number being attained by a CV. I want proof, honestly.

It's actually pretty easy with T6 and T8.  I'm not sure about T10 because I don't play very much T10 CVs.  But I play a LOT of T6 and T8.  Bottom tier, I typically run 30 or 40.  Mid tier 40 to 60.  Top tier.  Yeah, I'll break 100 now and then.

I should have a vid laying about, I"ll put it together for ya.

Here's one bottom tier.  I believe I have a more recent one:

 

Edited by Soshi_Sone

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Interesting, one player couldn't have his way with three other players that were playing with strong coordination to achieve a single purpose.  I'm shocked. :Smile_smile:

12 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

The OP here is about 10% correct and 90% not. Multiple high-AA ships in formation are actually quite expensive to strike repeatedly. Note, expensive -- not difficult. There is no AA in the game that can stop the CV from striking, if he's willing to pay the cost in planes, and the mechanics used to achieve the strike don't change. <snip>

Well said.  +1

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8 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

It's also a pretty strong piece of evidence that people who complain about CVs are...well...Git Gud?

Yeah no.  all you demonstrated is that If you remove all strategy and all tactics and you just blob up like a bunch of newbs on a lemming train all game long then the CV can't touch you.    However grouping up like a bunch of potatoes gives the entire map to the enemy. So you need to split up again so this  invalidates your oh so brilliant " massed blob tactic".  Which means you go back to the situation of players being in tiny groups that have no counter play to the CV. 


All this demonstrates is how broken CVs trully are.     All because  1 single ship of a certain class is present the gameplay of everyone needs to change entirely. Not to better more diverse strategies. But to a dumber blob strategy .  No other ship has this effect on the game. Not even "OP" ships like Kremlin or Smolensk  or a pair of Klebers  force the game to played this restricted. That is why CVs are broken.  

 

 

Edited by eviltane
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8 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

My clan mates and I have taken up training together after realizing we aren't coherent enough as a team to even succeed at the lowest level of clan battles. That said, our CV specialist recently returned after a long hiatus that had nothing to do with the game, and we decided to test out current CV effectiveness against ships that can stay in formation together. I should emphasize that this is a very good CV driver I am talking about, as 100k damage games are common for him, even now. The setup was this. We ran as a formation of three ships, a BB and two escorts. All he had to do was sink one of us in 10 minutes. After a lot of experimenting, we discovered he couldn't sink any of us as long as we stayed in overlapping AA formation, even though he was in Enterprise and we were all using tier 6 ships, even including a DD at one point. After this, we conducted one more test. I jumped over to CV to join him for a few battles, and even with two CVs, we were having difficulty succeeding as long as formation was held. For our last test, we both ran Midways, while our clan mates ran North Carolina, Mogami, and Atago. We nearly sank Mogami, but were unable to finish it within the 10 minute limit, despite focusing it the entire time.

Our conclusion is that CVs are only seeing any success in randoms right now due to player's lack of understanding how to work against them efficiently. If CVs did enter clan battles, they would be great for scouting, spotting, and cap resets, but wouldn't consistently inflict enough damage.

It's also a pretty strong piece of evidence that people who complain about CVs are...well...Git Gud?

That sounds about right.


Why should the 1 class that dominates in utility and survivability also get to be king of damage?


Also... your test is meaningless as it was conducted in a vacuum with no other surface ships attacking while the CV has you lit. Have 6 other ships raining damage on you the entire time the CV is making his runs.

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