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general_D_H_Chun

2019, the Tirpitz is still garbage

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The Tirpitz, as a ship, is mediocre. Most would agree. On WoWS stats alone, the Tirpitz B, which was released after the Massachusetts, sits dead bottom of all tier eight battleships. Regardless of wasting time arguing how bad the rest of the German BBs are, let me just cut to the chase and tell you, they're garbage, 

Let us look at this one, isolated, poster child of "the meta changes, but the ship doesn't. Because we refuse to give it anything other than a marginal secondary buff."

The Tirpitz. It is subdivided into several crucial aspects. We will look at these, and we will see why the ship fails so spectacularly in comparison to other ships of the same "niche."

The categories are:

1. Armor

2. Main battery

3. secondaries

4. Consumables to aid survivability

Point the first- the armor.

Tirpitz has very good armor. This is one of the few meaningful strengths the ship has. However, does it matter? High explosive shells do not need to penetrate to light fires. This is a problem for almost any battleship (cough cough, paper ships of Russia). But, why does it affect poor Tirpitz more? Because the ship cannot mount survivability build. Well, I say it can't. You can, technically. But then you completely ignore the third category. Tank build really is more viable at this point, but this just converts German battleships into bargain bin Soviet BBs, if that wasn't what they were already. 

In summary: Armor does not matter if you cannot take sustained concentrated fire on account of your having the fire resistance of a tub of kerosine.

Point the second- Main battery.

Tirpitz's main battery has been buffed to a competitive state! Now, you can pull the trigger fully expecting to be able to land the shells! Erm... just kidding.

Wargaming's consistent and long time justification for not bumping the sigma or the ellipse in a better direction for the four long years of this ship's existence have never changed. "It's a brawler, get close." Herein lies a problem. Get close? Right now? Are you sure you limited the liquor intake four glasses a day?

Bottom tier is a mess. This is true for any battleship. But even top tier, the ship is a candlestick. A damage pinata. A giant [edited] for punishment. In certain, narrow instances, the ship stands a chance of being able to accomplish something. If they have a single, competent Schors, a Belfast, maybe even a Bayard, or several of them, 

good luck. You do not need to be tier ten to light up a Tirpitz. You just need to have high explosive shells. 

Given the utter lack of ability to close the distance in numerous instances, the lack of compensation with the main battery is humorous. You might think that the sigma itself, 1.8, shared by other vessels at this tier, is acceptable, but this doesn't even factor in the poor vertical dispersion caused by shell drag, or the awful German dispersion formula which reaches a competetive level of consistency at around five kilometers.

In summary: The main battery is an utter joke, which only barely functions at close range, but good luck even getting there.

Point the third- Secondaries

Tirpitz's "strength" is supposed to be the secondaries. They're supposed to be a primary source of your damage, your offensive capacity, an 11.3 kilometer no-go zone. 

What a joke.

Let us turn from the land of balance, Russia, to the USS Massachusetts. Another ship I consider borderline broken. Aside from the fact that the heal will always be up, or that the guns have considerably better dispersion formula, calliber, and layout, let's look at their secondaries.

For all those not aware, Massachusetts comes with something that makes German battleship captains vomit. It's the 60% dispersion bonus. I do not mean manual secondaries, I mean pre mounted. This means that Massachusetts can demount manual secondaries, have equatable secondary dispersion to the Germans, and invest in something meaningful, like FP, or CE. What this also means, is that Massachusetts is able to stack MS twice. Massachusetts' secondaries are extremely effective. They can take out destroyers at eight kilometers from 5k health to null in under 16 seconds, at times. What they also boast, is a superior fire chance and damage to Tirpitz's low calliber, 105 mm rifles. The large calliber rifles, the 150 mms, do not fire quickly enough and with great enough volume to be considered reliable damage. Tirpitz has a 60% deficit in secondary dispersion, compared to every USN secondary oriented battleship. Let this sink in, for a moment. On top of this, Georgia and Ohio get very reliable main batteries. 

In summary: They stand out as a strength. Or they would have, if this was 2016.

Point the fourth- consumables.

This one is very simple. Why does Tirpitz not benefit from a faster recharging damage control, like the Russians, or repair, like the USN secondary ships? It doesn't make sense, in the slightest. Is the Tirpitz so blatantly strong that consumables that prevented it from igniting instantly with the captain's sneeze, or not being killed in the cooldown between consumables, that bad? This does not need summary or explanation. It's stupid. It makes no sense.

At this point, do you really need an overarching summary? Really? Fine. Sure.

Summary. Buff the Tirpitz. It's trash. You saying it's still fun and viable does not make that the reality.

Edited by general_D_H_Chun
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5 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

German Battleships are a point of debate. 

indeed, youve brought up plenty of reason why the Tirpitz is a bad ship /s

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I rarely see them played, see many more Bismarck used. Even see more Nelson than Mr T. I think the entire German BB line from t7 up needs a bit of help as do the RN line from t7 to t9. Even seeing less Scharnhorst being played lately in random. 

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7 minutes ago, Frigate007 said:

Even seeing less Scharnhorst being played lately in random. 

Part of that is that the recent MM changes, while helping T8 out some, also evened it out so T7 isn't the 'sweet spot' for T7 to beat up T5 as much as it used to.  Now Scharnhorst gets uptiered to T9 some, and people don't like it.

They loved it when they got to beat on T6/5 all the time...not as much now.

Edited by agm114r

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7 minutes ago, agm114r said:

Part of that is that the recent MM changes, while helping T8 out some, also evened it out so T7 isn't the 'sweet spot' for T7 to beat up T5 as much as it used to.  Now Scharnhorst gets uptiered to T9 some, and people don't like it.

They loved it when they got to beat on T6/5 all the time...not as much now.

Especially when getting into huge t10 maps like mountain range and trap isn't anything what t7 ships like Atlanta a d Scharnhorst were designed for.

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Would be funny if German BBs negated IFHE. I wonder how popular they would be then?  

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Fires...  the biggest killer of most ships.  Fire starting needs to be re-evaluated IMO.  Either the damage ratio needs changing or fire chances need to go down.  But what do I know? 

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52 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

The Tirpitz, as a ship, is mediocre. Most would agree. 

I remember when tirpitz first came out it was the terror of the sea. People hated trying to fight it. It was very hard to get a citadel on it.

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I love my Tirpitz. She's flawed as hell, but still seems to pay off.

If I could change one thing, it would be to make the guns less derpy. It's really depressing when you push into close range (<7km or so) and you still can't land shots against people whose sides you have exposed thanks to aggressive play. It's this element alone that REALLY holds the ship back, especially when compared to competing close-combat ships like Vlad and Kii. 

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They call her the Derpitz for a reason...she's a brawler and with the torps can still do some work.  You gotta choose when to close up...lone wolfing works with many ships but not this one...follow another BB in or wait around an island for a push.  I have full secondary and she can still bring it.  And if you get the hang of shooting at a mid to long range, she can hit decently, better than the NC class BBs, they really take some work to get better in...

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I agree the Tirpitz needs to be re evaluated, many ships that have been power creeped into oblivion exist on all nations and lines.

In games that could be as long as 20 mins. There is a need to look at what could be done to make the games more of a satisfied player game. { not win or lose but excitement}

What is needed is the Hero effect { USS Johnson, USS Roberts KM Scharnhorst  } Are but a few examples of the Hero effect, the  shear Overwhelming odds overcome by Heros.

Every battle in game should award one to four players with a Heros Prize {10 doubloons or 100,000 credits} {{Awarded randomly}} By RNG and highlighted in the results team screen.

The rewards are just a suggestion maybe something less would be appropriate.

Each game has the Hero Effect makes it just that more exciting.

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The real problem is that Massachusetts is OP af but nobody will admit it because it's American, and nobody will nerf it because it's been sold for cash.

Although, I find any evaluation of Tirpitz that fails to consider its torpedoes rather suspect, seeing as they're its most defining feature.

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3 hours ago, Admiral_Andy said:

I remember when tirpitz first came out it was the terror of the sea. People hated trying to fight it. It was very hard to get a citadel on it.

Love and viability are two totally different categories.

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4 hours ago, Frigate007 said:

I rarely see them played, see many more Bismarck used. Even see more Nelson than Mr T. I think the entire German BB line from t7 up needs a bit of help as do the RN line from t7 to t9. Even seeing less Scharnhorst being played lately in random. 

You got some lies there.

It's natural you see Bismarck being played more.  She is one of the most popular ships in the game and she's a Tech Tree Ship that anyone can freely access, whereas Tirpitz & Scharnhorst are Premium Ships and one needs to fork out money for them.

 

Nelson played more than Tirpitz, I knew right away that was a lie.

 

Tirpitz sees a lot of action still.  In 3rd Quarter 2019 on NA server, Tirpitz compared to some notable BBs in Battles played during this period:

Bismarck 324,806 battles

Premium Tirpitz 170,836

Amagi 126,664 - This is considered a good ship in the IJN BB Line, a highlight vessel.

Premium Kii 21,210

Richelieu 107,544

Premium Gascogne 18,905

IX Alsace 98,286 - Considered a highlight ship in the FR BB Line

X FR Cruiser Henri IV 96,314 - A good number around here call her "broken" OP.  Sees considerably less action than Premium BB Tirpitz, and she's a free Tech Tree Cruiser.

VII Premium Nelson 50,135 - There goes your "fact" of Nelson being seen more than Tirpitz.

VII King George V 91,520 - Considered a highlight ship of the RN BB Line, still sees less action than Premium Tirpitz.

 

Should I go on?

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Better sigma for german tiers 7, 8, 9 an 10. plus, plus some of the their secondaries dont open fire on cetain angles.

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You forgot the laughable AA and vulnerability to AP bombs (which the Mass also does not have).

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I use the Tirp a lot, it is still a good brawler, but its' major down is that a HE shell (and I mean ONE shell) from any DD can start numerous fires. Lately this seems to apply to a lot of ships in coop. All bots are OP, can turn on a dime and have the best heal of any ship in the game. Plus they have curving torps and arty.

Please WG, have a sale of Reds in their current state.

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I think the Tirpitz gives up too much for her torps.  They might be worth AA or Hydro, but not both.  In the end, while torps are fun, AA and Hydro are more game influencing in the long run. 

Alternatively, I think the Tirpitz would be better balanced as a T9 ship where she could afford torps, FDG-level AA, hydro, and maybe even better accuracy too. 

And yes, the secondary firing angles on the Bismarck/Tirpitz need to be tightened up.  They're very poor.

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IDK why people think surviving to the end of the match is their best bet...

Its a german bb... zerg. Rush in there and brawl. Main guns on cruisers, secondaries on dds, torps for everyone. WASD serpentine hax on approach.

But I will die! Yes. Yes you will. Probably. But you will also have first blood and 1-2 kills to show for it... they will try to torp and shell you instead of your less beefy allies... and traded your clunky anti meta bb for a dd and a radar cruiser... and allowed your dd and cruiser allies to push hard.

Tirpitz and km bbs are fine. They just require a very different playstyle than any other bb. Stop playing to survive and start playing to win.

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german BB line could use a buff, they are supouse to be brawlers with their good armor and secondary guns at the expense of weak main guns but neither the armor or secondary guns can do much in the current state of the game

armor  as many already pointed out has lost most of its value with the the everincreacing HE spam, German BBs having a huge superstructure dosent help

 secondary guns while above average are lackluster becouse secondary guns as a whole are in a horrible spot, way to much investment in both modules and captain points that could be spent somewhere else like HE resistance for something that has limited use and even when an enemy ship gets within range they arent doing that much damage

german ships could realy use a special t1-t2 module that boost their resistance, secondary and may be even AA powers at the expense of main gun stats, either that or give all german BBs secondary guns +1km range, +30% accuracy, + 30% shell speed

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2 hours ago, Xanshin said:

IDK why people think surviving to the end of the match is their best bet...

Its a german bb... zerg. Rush in there and brawl. Main guns on cruisers, secondaries on dds, torps for everyone. WASD serpentine hax on approach.

But I will die! Yes. Yes you will. Probably. But you will also have first blood and 1-2 kills to show for it... they will try to torp and shell you instead of your less beefy allies... and traded your clunky anti meta bb for a dd and a radar cruiser... and allowed your dd and cruiser allies to push hard.

Tirpitz and km bbs are fine. They just require a very different playstyle than any other bb. Stop playing to survive and start playing to win.

This is the funniest comment I have seen in months

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I can't see our host ever fixing anything German.....  Let alone, making a German BB OP in anyway to compete with the Home team ships.  I play this ship everyday in COOP and never would I take her into Randoms or Ranked.........that much is quite clear. 

Now, if they made a Tier 8 Scenario, like Narai for the Scharnhorst, we'd be tickled pink and that would be the place for her to shine.....

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9 hours ago, Edgecase said:

The real problem is that Massachusetts is OP af but nobody will admit it because it's American, and nobody will nerf it because it's been sold for cash.

Although, I find any evaluation of Tirpitz that fails to consider its torpedoes rather suspect, seeing as they're its most defining feature.

Massa is the secondary ship German BBs wish they could be, and it hurts my soul.

Cause nothing beats secondaries that actually hit your damn target. (and this is coming from a guy who grinded all the way up to GK, which is now gathering dust) :Smile_sad:

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