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a_Mad_Dog_CA

Fun Event Ruined by Design

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I would like to take my hats off to WG for the design work with the halloween, just for kicks, mode. It looks cool, it makes for a fun low-stress activity, it sounds cool. The whole nine yards.

The problem is that in the current iteration of the mode, the best way to collect the most loot is to cooperate and not spend too much time trying to kill each other. The problem with cooperation is that you, WG, have literally allowed players to come as a team of three high powered ships to take advantage of anyone trying to cooperate.

So the choice is, either get your smallish loot and get out of the map before the griefers get you, or become a griefer yourself. Not really my speed, WG.

I don't have a problem with PvP, I play this game for PvP almost exclusively. The thing is, what is the purpose of making a mode so that cooperation is possible, but highly disfavored. Either make it cooperative or make it competitive.

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2 minutes ago, a_Mad_Dog_CA said:

The problem is that in the current iteration of the mode, the best way to collect the most loot is to cooperate and not spend too much time trying to kill each other. The problem with cooperation is that you, WG, have literally allowed players to come as a team of three high powered ships to take advantage of anyone trying to cooperate.

Are the other player ships Green or Red??? You assume they won't attack you because they say so. Assumption is the MF'er of them all. Always assume they are going to ruin your day. Grow up tis a game. Since the game type isn't up for you liking don't play it.

 

 

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Dunno,  feel it adds another layer to the mode, having to switch from fighting the bots to dueling players if any truce is broken. 

You can't be certain if an agreement will be kept or not until you spot each other near the portal and that can get pretty interesting.

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I understand the concept of a risk style alliance that can be broken at any time. I just don't think that lines up well with being able to let three people division. You know they are going to stick together, and if they show up in the buffed ships, well good luck...

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37 minutes ago, a_Mad_Dog_CA said:

I understand the concept of a risk style alliance that can be broken at any time. I just don't think that lines up well with being able to let three people division. You know they are going to stick together, and if they show up in the buffed ships, well good luck...

Yep if you are thinking about breaking a truce and you see Angler and Crocasaur loaded generously with Filth, it’s best to move aside and let them travel to portal on peace. I know this because I was the Angler traveling with a friend in Crocasaur and the other 2 teams decided to try and break the truce. To put it mildly it was really bad idea because we had had enough time to collect enough buffs that the enemy ships had no chance really of stealing our cargo, and in the process they lost what little they had.

Annoying part is when humans break the truce it can tie us up long enough that we then have to deal with the DDs that spawn around portal when timer goes below 5 minutes. Which means we had to make a run right though central opening lined up with portal hoping we could avoid taking too many hits before teleporting out.

Good News is if a division is just wanting to collect the Filth from Rasputin for example, odds are good they are farming Filth and simply want to cycle through battles like clockwork. My Div often had to cut across to intercept Rasputin and would ignore Filth pools and allow the other teams to collect those in peace. So not like good Divs are stealing Filth which is even less of a reason to break truce to try and Pirate a farming Div that is letting others keep their Filth. Rasputin is tough but my div mate and I had figured out exactly how to take him down so we could grab 1,500 Filth and hit Portal.

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54 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

 

Dunno,  feel it adds another layer to the mode, having to switch from fighting the bots to dueling players if any truce is broken. 

You can't be certain if an agreement will be kept or not until you spot each other near the portal and that can get pretty interesting.

This.

Take WWII, for instance.

The US was neutral until we were attacked by the Japanese. The French were our allies then enemies once they surrendered then allies after we liberated them. The Italians were our enemies then allies once they decided to change sides. Japan and Russia had a non-aggression pact until it became advantageous for Russia to declare war on Japan once the war in Europe was over.

The event pretty much exactly mimics a real world war.

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1 hour ago, a_Mad_Dog_CA said:

I don't have a problem with PvP, I play this game for PvP almost exclusively. The thing is, what is the purpose of making a mode so that cooperation is possible, but highly disfavored. Either make it cooperative or make it competitive.

It is voluntary no one is forced to play it. It is fun the way it is. If you don't like it then complain in a support ticket. If it isn't fun for you don't play that mode.

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3 minutes ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

It is voluntary no one is forced to play it. It is fun the way it is. If you don't like it then complain in a support ticket. If it isn't fun for you don't play that mode.

The second that the notification popped up that you had commented I thought, "let me guess, put in a support ticket."

This guy is becoming a forum meme :Smile_veryhappy:

Edited by Rabbitt81
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The "Design" is a PVP event with a PVE element ... kill anything that's not a Friendly ... that's what war IS.  Truces in real life are tenuous at best.

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5 hours ago, a_Mad_Dog_CA said:

The problem is that in the current iteration of the mode, the best way to collect the most loot is to cooperate and not spend too much time trying to kill each other.

This is patently untrue. The best way to collect the most loot is to bee-line for the boss spawn, ram the boss with a shielded BB, collect all the filth, kill every player who comes within 12km, and farm the DDs that spawn on the way out for a haul of 3k in 15-16 minutes. Only one team gets to do this in a match, and you don't get it by cooperating.

The best way to collect for people that can't reliably win a fight is to cooperate and go clockwise, and leave with about 1200 total in 10 minutes or so - but nobody owes you their cooperation.

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5 hours ago, Epic_Baller said:

The best way to collect for people that can't reliably win a fight is to cooperate and go clockwise, and leave with about 1200 total in 10 minutes or so - but nobody owes you their cooperation.

This nasty little bit of spite against people who aren't as skilled or as confident as you was uncalled for.

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10 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

This.

Take WWII, for instance.

The US was neutral until we were attacked by the Japanese. The French were our allies then enemies once they surrendered then allies after we liberated them. The Italians were our enemies then allies once they decided to change sides. Japan and Russia had a non-aggression pact until it became advantageous for Russia to declare war on Japan once the war in Europe was over.

The event pretty much exactly mimics a real world war.

You left out the biggest truce of WWII that allowed the war to begin as it did. The one between Germany and Russia to divide up Poland. It's doubtful that Germany would have invaded without that treaty. That Stalin was surprised by Hitler breaking the treaty later on was totally his fault.

Like the game of Risk where there can only be one winner any truce with the enemy in this game is temporary at best.

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7 hours ago, Epic_Baller said:

The best way to collect for people that can't reliably win a fight is to cooperate and go clockwise, and leave with about 1200 total in 10 minutes or so - but nobody owes you their cooperation.

 

1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

This nasty little bit of spite against people who aren't as skilled or as confident as you was uncalled for.

Well, Baller's comment is also valid for people that calculate that spamming matches is a shorter and more efficient means of gathering filth.      I've seen plenty of the top clan tags on the red team streaming to the portal (different story if they're in a three man div).   While I know for certain they can reliably win a fight, they've got filth, and some is far better than none, and they're hitting the portal to collect and start another match.

 

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4 minutes ago, DiddleDum said:

While I know for certain they can reliably win a fight, they've got filth, and some is far better than none, and they're hitting the portal to collect and start another match.

The other thing to keep in mind is that smashing the bots that spawn near you and maybe a bot Crocosaur or two is a good way to bring home not only filth but also many hundreds to thousands of reliable base XP. It's more lucrative than co-op for not much more effort, the pace is just as fast (which keeps you going), and piling on flags if you have enough can bring home tidy slices of free and captain XP. Of course they want to cycle through all their ships as quickly as possible, because it's not just filth they're farming.

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That too.   I haven't been running flags, but that's a great opportunity to pile on commander XP for those grinding to 19pt skippers.   The free XP isn't bad either.

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My division mates have been reliably filling our holds and escaping. Just plan on killing any red boat that crosses paths with you. 

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The whole aesthetic of the mode is uncertainty and the fear it brings. Embrace it. Or just shoot first.

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4 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

This nasty little bit of spite against people who aren't as skilled or as confident as you was uncalled for.

That is the least generous possible reading of what is a statement of fact. I didn't say "for losers who can't win a fight" or "for people too weak or dumb to win a fight" because I wasn't being spiteful and I don't believe those things are true. What I was pointing out is that if you can win ~75% of your encounters, then the most efficient and profitable way to play is to horde 60% of the available filth on the map and to fight for it when a team contests you. However, just like there's not enough filth on the map for 3 battleship divs to leave with full holds, there's also going to be winners and losers in every fight that's pressed home. No matter how confident and skilled the player base as a whole is, most people are not going to be able to win reliably enough for it to make sense to fight over the boss's filth haul. That validates the OP's point for most people, but not all of them. And the people who can make the aggressive strategy work don't owe it to the ones who can't to refrain from maximizing their progress for the sake of playing nice with the reds.

3 hours ago, DiddleDum said:

Well, Baller's comment is also valid for people that calculate that spamming matches is a shorter and more efficient means of gathering filth.      I've seen plenty of the top clan tags on the red team streaming to the portal (different story if they're in a three man div).   While I know for certain they can reliably win a fight, they've got filth, and some is far better than none, and they're hitting the portal to collect and start another match.

The math actually doesn't show the efficiency in that strategy. Grabbing filth and dashing will net you about 6000-7500 per hour. Killing the boss and anyone who wants to interefere will net you 10,000-12,000 an hour if you're willing and able to put the smack down.

Edited by Epic_Baller
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22 minutes ago, Epic_Baller said:

That is the least generous possible reading of what is a statement of fact.

 

I am normally very generous in my readings of things, but the way you put it rubbed me up the wrong way from the start. Putting it in bold only made it worse.

Your reply to me put the statement in the broader context that it should have had from the start. I understand what you were getting at now, but the original statement - sans context - still comes across as arrogant and dismissive of lesser lights.

 

28 minutes ago, Epic_Baller said:

And the people who can make the aggressive strategy work don't owe it to the ones who can't to refrain from maximizing their progress for the sake of playing nice with the reds.

If your three-ship team can fill its holds on the filth of Rasputin, her escorts and everything else you meet between spawn and gate, there's no need to go blowing the hell out of every other human you meet. I for one will be quite happy to let you farm her and get out untroubled. And if you want to wait by the gate until the Mutantovsks swarm and farm THEM for filth as well, be my guest.

30 minutes ago, Epic_Baller said:

The math actually doesn't show the efficiency in that strategy.

It depends on whether you're filth-mining for the 200K you need to get all the T10 boxes, or just having some fun for the lower packages and farming ECXP at the same time. Don't rubbish the people who are content to settle for less and go home; they're not hurting you.

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37 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I am normally very generous in my readings of things, but the way you put it rubbed me up the wrong way from the start. Putting it in bold only made it worse.

 Your reply to me put the statement in the broader context that it should have had from the start. I understand what you were getting at now, but the original statement - sans context - still comes across as arrogant and dismissive of lesser lights.

Fair enough; but then allow me to paint an even broader context.

My in-game karma drops by 2-5 points every Twilight Battle I play. I don't grief, I don't troll, and I don't backstab. When the other teams start asking for a truce, I refuse in the open and usually get a heap of abuse right then. Even if I give other teams extra warning about what my div is going to do (such as not going clockwise because we spawned in southeast and need to go north to kill Rasputin) and give them one final warning to stay away from the Croc/200 filth spawn as we're rolling in on it...they treat it as a betrayal when we demonstrate that we actually are willing to fight for the biggest share of a finite resource. "TRUCE" as a strategy is being put on a moral and efficacy pedestal that is absolutely not borne out by the facts of the game mode, and players getting a bruised ego when they get their butts served to them are taking it to systems outside the game to try and enforce their strategy through abuse, shaming, and misrepresentation . I am being arrogant and dismissive of those people.

But to be clear, I don't think you belong in that group.

As to your other points, let me also be clear: I have no truck with anyone doing whatever they want inside the game mode. I'm not saying everyone must be in there in full try-hard mode competing for maximum efficiency. You wanna semi-afk while farming some filth, silver, and captain XP? More power to you. Is there a dad letting his 10 year old daughter play the mode on his account because she likes the spooky ships? Right on. Wanna try and jump my team while we're killing Ras to take our stuff? Bring it.

There's room for everybody. Unless what everybody wants is to leave with 3 BB holds full of Filth. Then we gotta fight.

648450721_trucemy.jpg.cab7b19b7b8e8c07fc6623e9150bc70b.jpg

Edited by Epic_Baller
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2 minutes ago, Epic_Baller said:

When the other teams start asking for a truce, I refuse in the open

This is good, and I can't understand why the :etc_swear: people would whine about it. I will ask, you are at liberty to refuse, and if we cross each other's path then we'll have a good, clean fight with gloves off. And you'll probably get a "worthy opponent" compliment even if you kill me. :Smile_honoring:

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1 hour ago, Epic_Baller said:

Fair enough; but then allow me to paint an even broader context.

My in-game karma drops by 2-5 points every Twilight Battle I play. I don't grief, I don't troll, and I don't backstab. When the other teams start asking for a truce, I refuse in the open and usually get a heap of abuse right then. Even if I give other teams extra warning about what my div is going to do (such as not going clockwise because we spawned in southeast and need to go north to kill Rasputin) and give them one final warning to stay away from the Croc/200 filth spawn as we're rolling in on it...they treat it as a betrayal when we demonstrate that we actually are willing to fight for the biggest share of a finite resource. "TRUCE" as a strategy is being put on a moral and efficacy pedestal that is absolutely not borne out by the facts of the game mode, and players getting a bruised ego when they get their butts served to them are taking it to systems outside the game to try and enforce their strategy through abuse, shaming, and misrepresentation . I am being arrogant and dismissive of those people.

But to be clear, I don't think you belong in that group.

As to your other points, let me also be clear: I have no truck with anyone doing whatever they want inside the game mode. I'm not saying everyone must be in there in full try-hard mode competing for maximum efficiency. You wanna semi-afk while farming some filth, silver, and captain XP? More power to you. Is there a dad letting his 10 year old daughter play the mode on his account because she likes the spooky ships? Right on. Wanna try and jump my team while we're killing Ras to take our stuff? Bring it.

There's room for everybody. Unless what everybody wants is to leave with 3 BB holds full of Filth. Then we gotta fight.

648450721_trucemy.jpg.cab7b19b7b8e8c07fc6623e9150bc70b.jpg

My type of gamer. If only the majority of gamers were like us. There would be so many great games to play.

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17 hours ago, DocWalker said:

The "Design" is a PVP event with a PVE element ... kill anything that's not a Friendly ... that's what war IS.  Truces in real life are tenuous at best.

Doc, sometimes truces hold, sometimes they don't.  They'll often hold IRL when one side has a massive advantage over the other side, and doesn't really want to keep fighting for their own reasons.  Or put another way, the war is all but over and one side has clearly won.  When truces don't hold, it's usually in situations where the was isn't really over and neither side has come out on top.  

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2 hours ago, Epic_Baller said:

Fair enough; but then allow me to paint an even broader context.

My in-game karma drops by 2-5 points every Twilight Battle I play. I don't grief, I don't troll, and I don't backstab. When the other teams start asking for a truce, I refuse in the open and usually get a heap of abuse right then. Even if I give other teams extra warning about what my div is going to do (such as not going clockwise because we spawned in southeast and need to go north to kill Rasputin) and give them one final warning to stay away from the Croc/200 filth spawn as we're rolling in on it...they treat it as a betrayal when we demonstrate that we actually are willing to fight for the biggest share of a finite resource. "TRUCE" as a strategy is being put on a moral and efficacy pedestal that is absolutely not borne out by the facts of the game mode, and players getting a bruised ego when they get their butts served to them are taking it to systems outside the game to try and enforce their strategy through abuse, shaming, and misrepresentation . I am being arrogant and dismissive of those people.

But to be clear, I don't think you belong in that group.

As to your other points, let me also be clear: I have no truck with anyone doing whatever they want inside the game mode. I'm not saying everyone must be in there in full try-hard mode competing for maximum efficiency. You wanna semi-afk while farming some filth, silver, and captain XP? More power to you. Is there a dad letting his 10 year old daughter play the mode on his account because she likes the spooky ships? Right on. Wanna try and jump my team while we're killing Ras to take our stuff? Bring it.

There's room for everybody. Unless what everybody wants is to leave with 3 BB holds full of Filth. Then we gotta fight.

648450721_trucemy.jpg.cab7b19b7b8e8c07fc6623e9150bc70b.jpg

Bravo, Baller.  Bravo!  :cap_like:

 

It seems grossly unfair that you'd be taking karma hits for your straight forward and civil honesty, if the image above is a consistent example of how you refuse truces.  You shouldn't take karma hits for refusing truces.  Period.   

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I don't have a problem with players. I have a problem with the design. It is heaven for a griefer.

My last game, I was collecting filth and my team leaves without telling me they are going to book. So I'm alone and outgunned.

A division rolls through, sees me, kills me, and then doesn't even try to pick up my filth. They are just plain griefing - there is no in game reward and the only thing which occurred is that I got less resources.

 

Look I don't blame them. I am not naming and shaming anyone.

As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

Edited by a_Mad_Dog_CA

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