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An in-depth proposal for USS Johnston as T10 'special' USN DD

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Hello and welcome to a thread where I pretend to know what I'm talking about. The subject of this thread is the recently discovered USS Johnston, a Fletcher class destroyer that I will argue for inclusion as tier 10 'special' ship.

mPBaOyU.jpg

Why Johnston?

With the recent discovery of her wreck bringing her back into relevance, @LittleWhiteMouse approached me with the idea to write this thread and to place her at T10. She gave me a basic outline for how she could be included in the game as T10, while paying homage to her historical significance and claim to fame. After some thought I could see how her ideas would not only work, but also make her unique and give her the unusual gameplay that would warrant inclusion, despite the glut of Fletchers already in the game.

Quote

[3:03 AM] AprilWhiteMouse: She is.  She was part of Taffy 3.  She charged Yamato.
[3:04 AM] AprilWhiteMouse: Right, so my idea is to theme her for that.
[3:04 AM] AprilWhiteMouse: Take a Fletcher. Bump it up to tier 10.

So, if you like this thread and the ideas therein, blame her. Not me.

What made Johnston so famous?

Her participation in the battle off Samar, pictured above, where USS Johnston under Commander Ernest E. Evans cemented her place in history by proving herself to be truly one of the fightingest ships in the history of history. In an action that earned Evans a Congressional Medal of Honor, Johnston attacked a force massively superior to itself in firepower, laid smoke to protect its allies, torpedoed and sank Mogami class heavy cruiser Kumano, zig zagged while dodging shells, and took heavy damage from battleship caliber ordnance. She continued to press the attack, displaying bravery and chutzpah above and beyond the call of duty, no doubt securing her crew places of honor in Valhalla. Details of the battle can be found here.

Johnston herself didn't survive the battle. Eventually she found herself crippled in the middle of a hell of smoke and fire, exchanging fire with no less than four cruisers and numerous destroyers. As one survivor put it, the Japanese were shooting holes in her hull faster than they could patch them to remain afloat. She eventually sank at just over 10 in the morning. Even the Japanese had recognized the bravery with which Johnston had fought, with Yukikaze's captain standing on deck and offering a salute to the sinking Johnston as she sailed past.

So how to implement her?

Well, let's take a look.

XGi2x0k.jpg

Tonnage:

2700 tons full load. Since Johnston is a basic Fletcher, she would have basic Fletcher hitpoints.

  • 17.100 hitpoints

Armor:

T10 USN destroyer standard.

  • 13mm superstructure
  • 19mm plating
  • 21mm hull midscection

Destroyers are easy to write for.

Main armament:

Fletcher standard set of guns.

  • 5x 1 127mm /38
  • 12.9km range
  • 112m dispersion
  • 1800 HE damage
  • 5% HE fire chance
  • 792 m/s HE velocity
  • 2100 AP damage
  • 792 m/s AP velocity
  • 3.3s reload
  • 5.3s traverse time

Comfortable weapon handling with floaty, high ROF shells. No surprises here to anyone used to how the 5" /38s perform in this game.

Auxilliary armament:

  • 10x 40mm Bofors
  • 7x 20mm Oerlikon

Same as the fully upgraded in-game Fletcher.

Torpedoes:

Quote

[3:04 AM] AprilWhiteMouse: Change her torpedoes to battleship-carrier only deepwater fish.

Huh. Ok.

So ...

Asashio type deepwater fish. On a USN DD. Worthy of T10. Let's see ...

We could go with a DWT variant of Black's fish, given a bit more damage because they hit underneath the torpedo belt, a bit faster reload because of the tier bump and a bit better concealment because they're DWT:

  • 2x 5 533mm
  • Hits only Battleships and Carriers
  • 11 km range
  • 24000 damage
  • 48 knots
  • 0.5 km visibility
  • 76s reload

Or, maybe, a DWT variant of Gearing fish. But lets make them interesting, lets cut 7 km of their range and give them 10 additional knots speed. For the rest, treat them like Black's fish above with adjusted stats for DWT treatment.

  • 2x5 533mm
  • Hits only Battleships and Carriers
  • 9.5 km range
  • 19000 damage
  • 76 knots
  • 1.0 km visibility
  • 93.3s reload

But which one to choose? Well, why don't we leave that up to the player? So they have a very flexible set of torpedo options and can choose between quick reloading nuclear tipped sea mines or moderate damage but super fast missiles with slower reload and shorter range.

To make the slow torpedoes more interesting and viable you could have them be able to hit cruisers as well.

Maneuverability:

Fletcher standard, with slightly lower top speed because Johnston was a bit slower than a standard Fletcher.

  • 35 knots
  • 560m turning radius
  • 3s rudder shift

No surprises there.

Concealment:

Fletcher standard. Clones are so easy to write for ...

  • 7.2 by sea
  • 3.2 by air
  • 2.7 smoke firing bloom

Values with camouflage mounted.

Consumables:

Quote

[3:04 AM] AprilWhiteMouse: Give her a single charge of Minotaur's heal.

YUNO.jpg

rLE2TW3.jpg

*Sigh* Ok, so. A Royal Navy Superheal. On a USN destroyer. Ok ...

  • Standard USN DD Damage Control Party
  • Standard USN DD Smoke
  • Standard USN DD Speed Boost
  • Royal Navy Superheal, 1 charge base
  • Defensive Fire Anti Air

Honestly, I'm not sure just giving her a superheal would be enough to justify the tier bump, so I figured I'd give her DFAA on a separate slot as well to give her some more utility.

Upgrade slots:

Tier 10 standard. IE, all of them.

 

AQ2gvVI.jpg

Playstyle:

The DFAA on a separate slot means you don't have to give anything up for a boost to AA, and the single charge of superheal, three maximum with superintendent and premium consumable, gives you a lot of survivability, allowing for the type of suicidal charge the historical Johnston is known for. Plus with a choice of torpedoes - lightning fast 76 knot ones or nuclear tipped 48 knot ones, you can tailor your playstyle to suit. You're either launching precision fish that anyone would be hard pressed to dodge and do a decent amount of damage, or you're launching fish that are so slow they're only good for area denial or suicide charges, but that will put a serious amount of hurt on anything they hit. Having them be capital ship only DWTs adds to the flavor and allows the whole torpedo package to be a bit more potent against the targets they do hit. For the rest there are no surprises, Fletcher's gonna Fletch.

Elephant in the room:

Those who know me will know that I do not see a particular need for yet another Fletcher in the game. We have four already. However, when Mouse approached me with this idea I could see some merit in it. After all, Fletcher is a popular and beloved platform and Johnston has earned her place in history doing awesome things. Reading up on her I've come to love this little boat that could. I'm still not convinced we 'need' another Fletcher but you won't hear me complain if they put Johnston in. As long as it doesn't come at the expense of something else that isn't a clone ...

Maybe I'm going soft in my old age.

So, in short:

Pros:

  • It's a Fletcher. Those are popular, right?
  • Choice of hard hitting or fast fish
  • RN Superheal
  • DFAA on a separate slot
  • Historical significance

Cons:

  • Another Fletcher?
  • Deepwater fish aren't as flexible
  • Playstyle has been done
  • T10 likely means more difficult to get than a T9 bote

So what would she cost if implemented at T10?

Likely a crap ton of coal, steel or RB points. Boy is the forum gonna be salty if it's RB points ...

What camouflage would she wear?

igMowrg.png

Historical dark blue. Nothing else will suffice. As for bonuses, T10 standard:

  • -3% concealment
  • +4% enemy dispersion
  • -50% post battle service cost
  • +20% credits per battle
  • +100% XP

In closing:

Thank you all for reading, and thanks to @LittleWhiteMouse for her help in nailing down this format originally and for providing the inspiration and general outline for this specific proposal.

Quote

[3:04 AM] AprilWhiteMouse: Bam, done.

Indeed.

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I'm all for the Johnston being in the game. One of the most famous dds in history.

Not sure I love the dwt at t10. Have a T9 dd that has powerful torps but can't hit cruisers. Maybe more Pan Asian dwt. Need to be able to threaten cruisers.

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2 minutes ago, wstugamd said:

Maybe more Pan Asian dwt. Need to be able to threaten cruisers.

That's all open to balancing and discussion.

I get where Mouse was coming from. Have her be geared to taking on capital ships.

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I favor this and always have. GQ Johnny should be in the game! And while you are at it, give her Ernest Evans as the captain...

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

USS Johnston, a Fletcher class destroyer

 Oh yes PLEASE !!!!! This is why I have always done the USN DD line first to get the Fletcher in Closed Beta and again in Open Beta .  And when/if I got the Johnston I would put my Fletcher Capt. in her and sell the Fletcher .

:Smile_honoring:

 

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The proposal looks fine except for the torpedoes.

 

The recent American DDs (Benham and Somers) have already taken on the "torpedo specialist" role better than IJN torpedo DDs. These two, along with tech tree Fletcher and Gearing, arguably are better torpedo boats than the supposed "torpedo specialist" nation. If this proposal pushes though, what even is the point in playing IJN torp DDs if the American DDs can do their role better?

 

I'd prefer Johnston to have upgraded Benson torps with slightly faster speed.

Edited by RyuuohD_NA

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46 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

The proposal looks fine except for the torpedoes.

 

The recent American DDs (Benham and Somers) have already taken on the "torpedo specialist" role better than IJN torpedo DDs. These two, along with tech tree Fletcher and Gearing, arguably are better torpedo boats than the supposed "torpedo specialist" nation. If this proposal pushes though, what even is the point in playing IJN torp DDs if the American DDs can do their role better?

The wall of shims torps would like a word

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7 minutes ago, wstugamd said:

The wall of shims torps would like a word

Shima torps that can easily be dodged by players with half a brain. 

Even the very fast F3 torps has worse reaction time than all the other nation's torps. 

 

Edited by RyuuohD_NA

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1 hour ago, wstugamd said:

The wall of shims torps would like a word

Yes...& that word would actually be  8 words..."1 km detection torps...I want those please".

I'm all for Johnson in the game but I agree the IJN could use an actual viable torp boat (along the lines of the original Fubuki) again 1st (not that the Shima wall isn't viable but it's been getting power crept a lot since the IJN DD split). Even if it's just a few decimal points of detection buff for the Shima torps.

3 hours ago, wstugamd said:

I'm all for the Johnston being in the game. One of the most famous dds in history.

Not sure I love the dwt at t10. Have a T9 dd that has powerful torps but can't hit cruisers. Maybe more Pan Asian dwt. Need to be able to threaten cruisers.

Hard to reinact sinking a Mogami class cruiser w/BB or CV only torps...& the optional DWTs where nobody knows if it has the ability to hit cruisers or not is gonna give it a uniqueness that might cause some serious forum ranting.

3 hours ago, Lert said:

That's all open to balancing and discussion.

I get where Mouse was coming from. Have her be geared to taking on capital ships.

I take it the "Mino" heal will be a percentage based thing as a standard Mino heal HP (w/flag) will pretty much full life repair a Fletcher each use.

I don't see Fletcher needing too much of a buff to get to T10 as it's pretty much seeing T10s on a standard basis as a T9...so either a standard heal & DFAA as a separate consumable or the Mino heal & DFAA stays as an option where you still give up the speed boost I think would be more balanced...to be able to troll planes while in a knife fight w/super heal is gonna make it a bit OP...but then again that HP pool is pretty lacking so...I could be wrong on the balancing issues there.

The optional torps w/different target options is gonna be a tricky sell though...cruiser players are gonna wanna know from the start if they need to worry or not. But I like the idea of the option...but there will be tears...but let them flow...less chance of beaching w/more water in the ocean :-)

Mice (OK...that was a mistype...supposed to be "Nice"...but I'm gonna leave it as it works in context) write up...+1. Now if we can just get @LittleWhiteMouse to comment so we can +1 for the idea.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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2 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

I take it the "Mino" heal will be a percentage based thing as a standard Mino heal HP (w/flag) will pretty much full life repair a Fletcher each use.

All heals are percentage based.

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Well this is... Certainly different fare for you, Lert. My personal thoughts:

  • Dat Meme-otaur heal... Honestly I'm mostly buying into the ship for that insanity in terms of stats. With premium consumables and superintendent you'll be able to 3D print out a brand new Fletcher the same way Nelson can, I love it!
  • I'll count myself as part of the vanilla DWT group. Part of her fame is torpedoing a cruiser, so why take that ability away from her?
  • Here's a crazy thought though: DefAA is nice and all, but it's already the US flavor. Plus, while being able to equip it and not give up speed boost is nice, it's also the kind of thing that I honestly feel that Fletcher and Gearing should already be able to do. So what if we added something else that you could swap for speed boost? Something that would really drive home just how much fight this destroyer had in her, something that no other US ship has, something from another nation with red white and blue colors? Give her a reload booster. Give those 5"/38s MAXIMUM DAKKA.
    • Tangent: Really it has always puzzled me that the French went from a decent line of cruisers with speed boost to probably one of the best lines available when the devs inexplicably decided that main battery reload booster was going to be a thing. Do these ships REALLY need two gimmicks? Really? Personally I'm still of the opinion that if they had to get one or the other then Speed Boost should have been dropped from the French cruiser line in favor of MBRB, and instead given to the Italians who had a HISTORICAL HABIT of taking their already fast ships and running their boilers overpressure for short sprints. Maybe even do the same thing for the battleships, or at least something similar; like give Richelieu, Alsace, and Republique a version that shaves off 33% reload time and have Jean Bart be special by virtue of getting the cruiser version that cuts reload in half.
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For those who may not know the story, here's a pretty good clip describing the battle:

 

If you like this, the entire Dogfights military series is a very good watch.

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I'd say I'm still in the 'no more Fletchers' camp, or if not 'no more', 'low priority'. Despite the models being a near-freebie, the ship would need a lot of testing and balancing as T10 is fairly important to get right. Balancing resources are not finite and I'd have preferred to see a little more attention paid to some recent ships.

DWT that can hit cruisers seems better, though we already have a DWT equipped Fletcher - Chung Mu. Are torpedo tweaks and the super repair enough to get to T10? Probably, though the super repair is not quite as good as it first looks on a destroyer - it's more about queue-able damage than repair volume. A destroyer is unlikely to take much fire damage, and you don't want to get very low before repairing so getting the full value of the repair would be tricky. A smaller, but short cooldown repair is probably better to keep topping up HP, rather than let yourself get down to about 1/3 and then blapped.

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I'm torn on this one. On the one hand, do we really need more USN premiums at high tier? However, if we got another Fletcher, Johnston or The Sullivans would be the best options. As to the proposal itself, it seems to be USS Neustrashimy. I'm not 100% sold on the deepwater F3s, but the rest seems like a solid, well balanced proposal, though a bit more base HP might be needed.

 

Good writeup as always.

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I like the choices for torps but would probably go with the standard DWT of the Pan-Asian line instead of the Asashio torps. The Johnston did torp a CA after all. I'd love it too if it came with Commander Evans as a special captain, dosen't have to be like Yamamoto or Halsey special. 

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23 hours ago, Lert said:

All heals are percentage based.

Yeah I got that but just wanted to clarify it as when somebody refers to Mino heal they're usually referring to a lot more HP than the same percentage of HP on a DD & as no DDs at this time have a heal like that it might get confusing to some...just wanted to clarify that the 3 heals would print another ship (as Landsraad pointed out) rather than each of the 3 heals would print another ship (-: which the only reason I briefly got that idea was the memes you added in at the mention of it...y u do dis? :-)

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We have several high tier Soviet paper BBs in development so I don't see the harm in another real historical ship, an iconic one no less. Personally, I'd rather see Johnston at T9, save the T10 spot for Laffey DD-724 as we still don't have a Allen M. Sumner DD in the USN tech tree (if she ever appears in WoWS). I'm fine with DWTs but both sets should be allowed to hit cruisers as well, seeing as Kumano's bow was blown off by one of Johnston's torps. It'd better not be available for steel as Somers is already locked behind that paywall.

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1 hour ago, Wolcott said:

We have several high tier Soviet paper BBs in development so I don't see the harm in another real historical ship, an iconic one no less. Personally, I'd rather see Johnston at T9, save the T10 spot for Laffey DD-724 as we still don't have a Allen M. Sumner DD in the USN tech tree (if she ever appears in WoWS). I'm fine with DWTs but both sets should be allowed to hit cruisers as well, seeing as Kumano's bow was blown off by one of Johnston's torps. It'd better not be available for steel as Somers is already locked behind that paywall.

As is Black, another Fletcher behind Steel is just repetition. Still, tier 9 Johnston for coal paired with a steel tier 10 Laffey could be a neat duo.

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Rather than futzing about with torpedoes, just increase the gun fire rate. The fastest burst rates possible for the 5"/38 gun were on the order of 25-30 rounds a minute, so say give her a 2.2 second reload time, and in combination with a DD heal and her existing stats she'd likely be sufficient. I don't think that BB-only DWT would actually be that much of a buff, low speed torps even with low detect are unreliable in hitting anything, and the high speed torpedoes limited range is hugely risky on a low-HP ship.

EDIT: While you're at it, increase the top speed to 38 knots. That would get you pretty decisively the best close-range gunboat in the game. 136 rounds per minute tying Daring for DPM, heal, 5.6km base detection, high DPM torpedoes. Why bother making a ship that does things differently when Fletcher is already a strong ship? Just make a stronger Fletcher.

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On 10/31/2019 at 7:19 PM, Lert said:

I get where Mouse was coming from. Have her be geared to taking on capital ships.

  • I understand the thinking, but she torpedoed and sank a CA in combat!  You're making it so she can't do that in game?  Okay, DWT, but standard, not Asashio-style.
  • For a heal, give her 2x heals (1% • 20 sec) with 90 sec cooldown -- the difference being the reduced total and the diminished effect of prem and SI. 2x = 40%, 4x = 80% -- much less than 3x Mino heals** at 168%, yet with considerably more utility (see the comment about repairable damage above).
  • I'd also think about an agility buff.  One may not be needed, but it's a good place to buff.

Otherwise, I like the proposal as laid out. 

There's an issue with a T10 premium, though.  They aren't sold for cash. 

  • For Steel, there would be riots in the virtual streets. 
  • For Coal, about 225K, but would the penetration be too high? 
  • Mission reward?  Same question, and only a temporary solution. 
  • FXP?  It would have to be something like 1M...

T10 does imply, "The best we have," which seems entirely appropriate, so I hesitate to suggest a lower tier.  Standard Fletch is already T9.

 

** RN T9-10 cruisers heal 2% for 28 sec, for a max 56% per charge, with a -- here inapplicable -- 50% citadel repair rate.

Edited by iDuckman

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On 10/31/2019 at 10:28 PM, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

the optional DWTs where nobody knows if it has the ability to hit cruisers or not is gonna give it a uniqueness that might cause some serious forum ranting.

I see you seek Chaos.  That's a pretty darn good idea.

 

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24 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

I see you seek Chaos.  That's a pretty darn good idea.

 

Wasn't my idea...he mentioned it in the OP...I was just pointing out the inevitable forum ranting it would cause...& how I liked the idea for the Chaos potential.

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DWTS? F*ck no. Mouse must have been high. Take Fletcher give her a heal, Increase the ROF/Range/AP pen, Gearing Torps, DEF AA + Speed Boost and $$$ Hull/Camo combo like Salem. Done.

Make her for Coal or FXP.

 

 

 

Don't you two ever sleep 3 in the morning... smh...

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I made a post just yesterday asking if there was any hope Johnston would make it into the game and someone pointed me to this. Love the ideas for her but Lert, can I make a suggestion regarding her guns? Do you think she could 1/4 caliber HE pen with reduced fire set chance and damage or some gimmick? Considering she's most well known for Samar and the fact she went down slugging it out with Japanese battleships and cruisers. Also I'd rather see her at T9 and as a FXP or Coal ships.

Any fans of naval history, here's a must watch. This gives a detailed account of Samar and a lot of details on Johnston's actions during the battle before she sank. This also shows why i suggested the HE gimmick for the guns, the Japanese confused Johnston for a light cruiser due to the amounts of damage she inflicted.

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22 hours ago, Landsraad said:

As is Black, another Fletcher behind Steel is just repetition. Still, tier 9 Johnston for coal paired with a steel tier 10 Laffey could be a neat duo.

Personally I'd rather not see any real historical ship locked behind steel, RB points or condemned to the supercontainer abyss. WG has plenty of paper/fake ships they can use instead.

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