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LittleWhiteMouse

Wargaming's Explanation of Regia Marina bow and aircraft markings

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I forwarded the questions being posed by the community about the Regia Marina bow-icons (star / eagles) and why they elected to use the markings they did for the Italian aircraft instead of something more easily recognizable from a historical perspective.  Wargaming came through with a big ol' PDF post.

HbyYW5b.png

Wargaming's Answers

The TL;DR:  Wargaming was very aware of the different bow-emblems and aircraft markings used historically.  In the ship's case, as the ships in the tech tree do not represent any one ship but rather the ship-class, they defaulted to the star which was predominantly used on many ships during the period, so it made a good "placeholder" that was generally period accurate.  In the case of premium ships, the premium represents the actual vessel and they used the respective emblem it had.  In the aircraft's case, they had to avoid various fascist symbols.  They didn't default to the roundel because that wouldn't be historically accurate as it had a use in specific periods in history (it would be like using a modern day Canadian naval ensign on Haida).  So they elected to make one up to be safe.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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That's actually reasonable.

 

Wow. Wargaming did something reasonable. 

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27 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

In the aircraft's case, they had to avoid various fascist symbols. 

Surely the Italians didn't use the swastika.  Are there other banned or objectionable Fascist symbols?

Overall, though, quite a reasonable reply.  I wonder about the barber pole, though.  Did they address that?

 

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Wargaming still has not explained why they left out the Imperial German Navy flag for the lower tier ships. 

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6 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Surely the Italians didn't use the swastika.  Are there other banned or objectionable Fascist symbols?

Overall, though, quite a reasonable reply.  I wonder about the barber pole, though.  Did they address that?

 

They’re probably referring to the fasces symbol, which was the symbol of the Italian fascists.

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Flag of the Italian Fascist Party.

800px-Flag_of_the_National_Fascist_Party_(PNF)_svg.png.4f12fa6736dc2f883a7df6e210f96081.png

The symbol, though, goes back to the Etruscans.  I wonder how many Italians see it as a Fascist symbol now?

 

FYI, the fasces is a once-functional symbol of power.   A Roman magistrate or official would be accompanied by a number of fasces bearers who's purpose was to enforce his rulings.  The rods could be used to beat opponents and the axe was the final resort.

Edited by iDuckman

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18 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Surely the Italians didn't use the swastika.  Are there other banned or objectionable Fascist symbols?

Overall, though, quite a reasonable reply.  I wonder about the barber pole, though.  Did they address that?

 

The Italian symbol was the fasces, a roman symbol of power that was a bundle of sticks with an axe head. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_symbolism#Italy

11 minutes ago, IJN_Yamato_BB17 said:

Wargaming still has not explained why they left out the Imperial German Navy flag for the lower tier ships. 

Or the Weimar Republic for that matter. Yet we instead have a de-Nazified Third Reich flag. :Smile_amazed:

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36 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

The TL;DR:  Wargaming was very aware of the different bow-emblems and aircraft markings used historically.  In the ship's case, as the ships in the tech tree do not represent any one ship but rather the ship-class, they defaulted to the star which was predominantly used on many ships during the period, so it made a good "placeholder" that was generally period accurate.  In the case of premium ships, the premium represents the actual vessel and they used the respective emblem it had.  In the aircraft's case, they had to avoid various fascist symbols.  They didn't default to the roundel because that wouldn't be historically accurate as it had a use in specific periods in history (it would be like using a modern day Canadian naval ensign on Haida).  So they elected to make one up to be safe.

WG should introduce a filter option to hide any made up symbols. If we can't have the historical emblems then I'd rather not see any markings at all. The same goes for the censored Kriegsmarine flag.

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30 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Flag of the Italian Fascist Party.

800px-Flag_of_the_National_Fascist_Party_(PNF)_svg.png.4f12fa6736dc2f883a7df6e210f96081.png

The symbol, though, goes back to the Etruscans.  I wonder how many Italians see it as a Fascist symbol now?

 

FYI, the fasces is a once-functional symbol of power.   A Roman magistrate or official would be accompanied by a number of fasces bearers who's purpose was to enforce his rulings.  The rods could be used to beat opponents and the axe was the final resort.

fasces are used by the USA. It is a symbol of US Congress and used to be on back of the dime.   Of course the US doesn't ban symbols, it is in Europe that WoW has to watch out.  swastikas appear in native American art and south asian art.  The IJN ensign is another one that is interesting because it is still used.  It is banned in some countries.   The US military uses it in some unit symbols.   It is a pre fascist symbol. 

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While the reasoning for the stars on the bows of the tech tree ships seems reasonable, it still, in my opinion, makes the hulls look like lazy copypasta's of existing RU cruiser hulls with different turrets and superstructures.

I'd much rather see the emblems on the bows than a star, even if say B-hull Trento isn't actually Trento but rather a sister ship. Just use the emblem that was on the nameship of the class, as that's what the ship is called in-game and that's what everyone will refer to them as.

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I do like WG's pdf explanation.

for those that missed the link, here is a full and clumsy copy/paste of it (visit the link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1479xkN-Er_WccKrxPpJvEqnDkZCwjl2b/view if you want the illustrative photos) : 

Quote

 

It's been noted within the community that the bows of the Italian cruisers are sporting a star instead of the eagle emblem (or whatever that is) they had historically. May I ask where the symbols for the Regia Marina came from in World of Warships? 

The Regia Marina symbols came to World of Warships directly from the Regia Marina. 

According to the King's decree, Stella d'Italia was a symbol of Forze Armate Italiane, including the Regia Marina, since 1871. Thus a five pointed star on the stem came to be the most common bow decoration of primary types of Italian warships. Here, in our chronological setting, the Italian Navy didn't have any strict regulations regarding bow decorations, and the issue was resolved individually for every case. 

On these three photos made in the harbor of Genova at the same time in 1938, you can see four Freccia-class destroyers and three Folgore-class destroyers with stars, as well as three Navigatori-class destroyers without any decorations on their stems. 

 

Another example, Guissano-class light cruisers (1st Condottieri series) initially had eagle emblems on their stems, which later were replaced with stars. 

 

One more, a cruiser from the 4th Condottieri series had a star on her stem, while a second ship from the same series had a ducal coat of arms. We can go on. 

 

Regarding heavy cruisers of the Italian Navy, which were all named in honor of the cities that joined Italy as a result of World War I, their bow decorations were a coat of arms of these cities. The only exception was the cruiser Trento which had Stella d'Italia on her stem. 

 

We've cleared the question about bow decorations of Italian warships in history, let's get back to the way they look on World of Warships models and why. In the game, an historical ship from a nation's Tech Tree symbolizes the entire class, but not some specific pennant. That's why we've selected not individual coats of arms for ships, even if such existed (Montecuccoli-class, Zara-class), but the most common bow decoration of the Regia Marina—Stella d'Italia. 

But historical Premium ships in World of Warships represent models of specific ships. That's why battleship Roma has a coat of arms on her stem. By the way, this is the only out of four Littorio-class battleships which had a decoration in the shape of a coat of arms, and not a five pointed star. But it wasn't that way from the start: on the photo, when Roma was put afloat on June 9, 1940, we can still see a star, but on the photo, when the ship was on the final stage of construction in summer 1942, we can see a coat of arms (Bagnasco E., Toro A. de. The Littorio Class. Italy’s Last and Largest Battleships 1937-1948. Naval Institute Press, 2011. P. 124, 126). 

On a similar note, the Italian aircraft are sporting markings with which I'm unfamiliar and run contrary to what they had historically. Was there a reason the Italian Airforce tricolour roundel wasn't used instead? 

As it's known, from 1926 until the middle of 1943, the wings and hull of Italian warplanes had identification markings with Fascist Party symbols—stylized fasces. Chronologically, this period covers all the Italian 

aviation presented in World of Warships. Depiction of the fasces is impossible in the game together with some other symbols, because we are obliged to follow jurisdiction and estimate risks in the laws of various countries. 

What can they be replaced with on the airplanes? Using identification markings from other historical periods isn't the best idea, because that would be incorrect in any case. 

For example, the German aviation in the game now has the correct Balkenkreuz on the wings and hulls. As for the tail fins, instead of the swastika, all we had was to put the German Air Force identification marking introduced in 1956. The tricolored flag of the German Republic, which was put on the airplanes in reality, would hardly be appropriate. That's why we have decided upon the black Iron Cross with white borders or without them, as you can see on the wings and hulls. However the identification markings of the Luftwaffe aviation in the game haven't become more historically accurate—everybody understands that it's just a placeholder on the tail fin. 

 

The same is true about the Italian aviation. On the vertical fins, we now have historically accurate vertical stripes in colors of the national flag with the coat of arms of the Royal House of Savoy or the white cross Distintivo de Guerra with the same coat of arms introduced in June 1940, when Italy joined World War II. If we put the Corpo Aeronautico Militare tricolors of the World War I age or some different in size badges of the post-war Aviazione Navale (established in 1956, airplanes appeared in 1989) on the planes and hulls, such identification markings won't be more historically accurate. Everyone knows that this combination has never been used, in other words, we have just another placeholder here in any case. 

In such situation at hand, we've decided to choose another path, the path of historical and artistic associations. The fasces were one of the attributes of power in the Ancient Rome, they also serve as insignias for honored warlords. A symbol of the same order is an aquila, a sign of the legion in the Ancient Rome army shaped as an eagle on a pole decorated with discs known as faleras. That's the symbol that we used to replace the fasces for the identification markings on the planes and hulls of Italian aviation. Based on the widely spread attributes of the Ancient Rome and the important role it played for the military symbols of the Fascist Italy, we've totally preserved the spirit of the age, in our opinion. 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Salttyy said:

fasces are used by the USA. It is a symbol of US Congress and used to be on back of the dime.   Of course the US doesn't ban symbols, it is in Europe that WoW has to watch out.  swastikas appear in native American art and south asian art.  The IJN ensign is another one that is interesting because it is still used.  It is banned in some countries.   The US military uses it in some unit symbols.   It is a pre fascist symbol. 

I always thought it amusing that the Post-WWII JMSDF said "F--k it" and kept the old IJN-era ensign :Smile_teethhappy:

Image result for jmsdf ensign

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23 minutes ago, Salttyy said:

fasces are used by the USA. It is a symbol of US Congress and used to be on back of the dime.   Of course the US doesn't ban symbols, it is in Europe that WoW has to watch out.  swastikas appear in native American art and south asian art.  The IJN ensign is another one that is interesting because it is still used.  It is banned in some countries.   The US military uses it in some unit symbols.   It is a pre fascist symbol. 

Yep it is even on the Lincoln memorial.

See the source image

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2 hours ago, ramp4ge said:

Wow. Wargaming did something reasonable. 

Happens more often. People always seem surprised anyways.

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21 minutes ago, column5 said:

Can't have an obscure Italian marking but Soviet symbols are perfectly fine.  LOL.

Yeah funny this flags ok

Image result for soviet naval flag

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16 minutes ago, tm63au said:

Yeah funny this flags ok

Image result for soviet naval flag

given these symbols are banned (because deemed offensive symbols of totalitarianism) in a dozen countries worldwide (all in Europe I think)... WGs decision to obey the law on nazi and Fascist symbols in places like Germany, but not to obey the law on Soviet symbols in Hungary and Estonia (for example) seems mighty strange. 

Wargaming (Lesta) values are quite particular, they are not based on any universal ethic or morality (e.g Stalin murdered several million of his own people), nor are they based on the need to obey the law (see above), instead they seem to reflect cultural prejudice. a little list of examples !

  • female anime avatars, but no male
  • all male pseudo historical (fictional realism) stock avatars
  • not a single black face in the entire game (neither fictional nor historical)
  • no nazi or fascist symbols, but soviet symbols are ok (no, the law is not an acceptable argument, see above for why)
  • etcetera..


FTR I am not advocating here, for the inclusion or exclusion of one thing or another, just pointing out a little hypocrisy.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I always thought it amusing that the Post-WWII JMSDF said "F--k it" and kept the old IJN-era ensign :Smile_teethhappy:

Image result for jmsdf ensign

it looks good on them honestly

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31 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

female anime avatars, but no male

We got one male with ARP. Other than that, AL has no male characters that aren't cats of ambiguous gender (because they're cats), and I'm not sure if HSF has any either. Maybe that cat, Isoroku? I don't watch HSF.

So it's more that the anime in question really don't have options like that.

I feel AL would pretty much never make male characters, even for a WG crossover. Sexy women botes is basically their thing.

Edited by Shoggoth_pinup

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1 hour ago, tcbaker777 said:

it looks good on them honestly

I agree.  In the US military, I know we have some unit patches, insignia with alternate versions with the "Sunray" design on them, for units stationed at Japan.  I remember the USN in particular had a bunch of squadrons with that kind of stuff, more than what we had in the USMC.

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5 hours ago, ramp4ge said:

That's actually reasonable.

 

Wow. Wargaming did something reasonable. 

No it is not. There is a perfectly acceptable ACTUAL national emblem. Lesta has chosen to make up a completely fake emblem. Imagine the uproar if they had done this with USN aircraft? It's ok because it is only the Italians.

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2 minutes ago, Sparviero said:

No it is not. There is a perfectly acceptable ACTUAL national emblem. Lesta has chosen to make up a completely fake emblem. Imagine the uproar if they had done this with USN aircraft? It's ok because it is only the Italians.

 

You mean like when companies put the red bars in the emblems on US aircraft and it's completely wrong and nobody cares? Or the fact that there are floatplane Hellcats?

 

If it bothers you that much wait for the inevitable mod pack that adds it.

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16 minutes ago, ramp4ge said:

 

You mean like when companies put the red bars in the emblems on US aircraft and it's completely wrong and nobody cares? Or the fact that there are floatplane Hellcats?

 

If it bothers you that much wait for the inevitable mod pack that adds it.

The first one I have no idea what you are talking about. Yes it should irritate you if it is true. The second one is a strawman argument. Not the first time you try to put a completely inane counterpoint.

There are a fair number of historical options from the time period.
https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/it^air.html

 

 

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And another reason the rationale is a flaming pile of fecal matter is that Roma has a camo that says Italian Republic.

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2 hours ago, Shoggoth_pinup said:

I feel AL would pretty much never make male characters, even for a WG crossover. Sexy women botes is basically their thing.

Kantai Collection was launching sexy women ships long before Azur Lane existed.

Also the fact that there were warships that were referred to with male pronouns, but are still drawn as women is annoying.

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