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Midshipman_Hornblower

Map-Edge Targets

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I'm sure we've all seen this.  You are tracking a target, and your target steams onto the map edge.  The first thing that happens is that he suddenly stops, which causes your already-in-flight salvo to drop way ahead of him.  Ok, I get that.  But then...he's either stopped, or moving much slower, and he really can't manuver.  Seems like it would be a cinch to hit him.  But instead, I have the devil's own time getting a hit.  Salvo drops and misses, I try to correct, next salvo still misses.  What should be a dead target escapes, or if he dies, it's because someone else on my team hit him.

Any hints on how to hit targets in this situation?  Does anyone know how shells behave when they reach the map edge?  Is it physically possible to hit the half of the ship that's off the map?

I DID recently notice what may be a partial answer to one of these questions.  In this case, it was me trying to dodge a spread of torpedos.  It was pretty obvious, though, that I was going to eat some of them.  Then, my turn away from them ran me onto the map edge, and my ship stopped dead.  For a few seconds, I thought I was saved, because only 2 torps were going to hit, and both were going to hit near my bow, which was off the map.  So I'm thinking the torps may vanish when they hit the map edge.  Nope!  I watched them swim right on through the map edge and blow two big holes in my bow.  So I think I understand that torpedos just keep going, at least for a little bit, after encountering the map edge.  Shells, though?

Looking for info or opinions from those more experienced.  Is there a technique to getting hits against map-edge targets?  Or is it maybe better to just wait till the target gets off the map edge and starts behaving more normally, then start firing again?

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The one trick on border humpers is the range is known...it's the border!  So the key is to determine lateral velocity.  If they just hit the border, their perpendicular velocity (to the border) is mostly nulled and their tangential velocity is transferred to a direction along the border.  Put your sight on the border and lead along the border.  A calibrating one turret shot is sometimes useful, followed by an adjustment and remaining salvo.

Just remember....border is the range.  Changes a two dimensional problem into a one dimensional problem. 

The longer they stay on the border, the more they slow down.

As with aiming at normal targets, the border shot does take some experience.  So go for it.  The more chance you get, the more you figure it out.

 

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Border mechanic has always been crap. The "reduce engine power" mechanic makes it even more crap because it's harder to get off the border and ships move erratically while their engine power drops. If WG really wanted to punish border surfers hitting the border would be like running aground.

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3 hours ago, Midshipman_Hornblower said:

I'm sure we've all seen this.  You are tracking a target, and your target steams onto the map edge.  The first thing that happens is that he suddenly stops, which causes your already-in-flight salvo to drop way ahead of him.  Ok, I get that.  But then...he's either stopped, or moving much slower, and he really can't manuver.  Seems like it would be a cinch to hit him.  But instead, I have the devil's own time getting a hit.  Salvo drops and misses, I try to correct, next salvo still misses.  What should be a dead target escapes, or if he dies, it's because someone else on my team hit him.

Any hints on how to hit targets in this situation?  Does anyone know how shells behave when they reach the map edge?  Is it physically possible to hit the half of the ship that's off the map?

I DID recently notice what may be a partial answer to one of these questions.  In this case, it was me trying to dodge a spread of torpedos.  It was pretty obvious, though, that I was going to eat some of them.  Then, my turn away from them ran me onto the map edge, and my ship stopped dead.  For a few seconds, I thought I was saved, because only 2 torps were going to hit, and both were going to hit near my bow, which was off the map.  So I'm thinking the torps may vanish when they hit the map edge.  Nope!  I watched them swim right on through the map edge and blow two big holes in my bow.  So I think I understand that torpedos just keep going, at least for a little bit, after encountering the map edge.  Shells, though?

Looking for info or opinions from those more experienced.  Is there a technique to getting hits against map-edge targets?  Or is it maybe better to just wait till the target gets off the map edge and starts behaving more normally, then start firing again?

Just to clarify ships don't "stop" when they hit the border they just get a major speed reduction...but it's enough of a reduction that when aiming at 1 about to hit the border you just treat it as if it's about to beach (which would be an actual stop) & you should get at least a couple hits.

Both shells & torps will range past the border but just be aware that any ordinance fired past the border will have no targets to hit as the ships are gonna be "stopped" at the border from continuing that way (although they will still be able to drift along the border...albeit at a majorly reduced speed).

Predicting the drift is the hard part as ships that were perfectly broadside before hitting the border can drastically change their angles w/out much effort from the sudden braking action caused by contacting the border...but conversely they can go from non broadside to a perfect broadside just as quickly.

When a ship is being concentrated by a bunch of your teammates it's usually easier to predict which way they will try to maneuver once they hit the border but when it's just you firing at them they have more options on which way to go.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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I found out very early here that it is a tactic that some use as a tool very often.  They snipe from the border then run to it when they get in trouble.

Yes , you can learn how to deal with this but why should we?  We have all run into the border by accident in the heat of battle, it CAN be hard to get off of it. That said, the border should have a timer... after X seconds you lose health and your guns are disabled. Only THAT will stop the professional humpers from exploiting this tactic.

After you have been here a while you learn not to chase them anyway but it took a long time to figure out that Bait ships just take you away from the mission.

Col Out

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8 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Put your sight on the border and lead along the border.

Soshi, when I think about it, this makes a lot of sense.  So why the heck didn't I think of it?  Proves once again I'm not the brightest bulb in the box.  I think this may actually explain some of my problem.  I think I've been aiming on the assumption that the ship is moving in the direction it's bow is pointing, when in fact it's sort of sliding sideways along the map edge!  Now I'm excited...gotta go try this.  If only I can actually remember to do it next time I see a ship on the map edge.

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Staying on the boarder for over 60 seconds should give you DOT and if you stay there till your hp runs out the last person to damage you gets the kill.

Remove the engine slow down if this was to happen tho.

Edited by CriMiNaL__

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If you remember basic trig, the velocity of someone riding the border is the projection of their speed and heading vector (reduced by the border engine power penalty) onto the border line.

Untitled.thumb.png.f6239f5f375eaf7e4fc1d63c4fc05101.png

The border rider will always be going at a fraction of their full speed so long as they stay on the border and they will always be traveling in one of two directions on the border until they get off of it. How fast the rider slides along the border is determined by how fast they're shoving themselves into the border (the throttle) and their angle of collision with the border. Nimble ships like destroyers can easily abuse how fast they can change their angle along the border which can make them difficult to hit while border riding, but they also aren't creating as much distance as they would be if they were sailing away in open water, which is usually what they're trying to do in situations that result with them being stuck on the border. They also aren't likely to launch good torpedo spreads from the border depending on how angled they are, so it's much easier to close the distance on them and get easier shots in. However, I wouldn't recommend advancing on a border rider until later in a match, as there will be significantly less threat from crossfire if the team did well.

Edited by Flashtirade

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8 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

The one trick on border humpers is the range is known...it's the border!  So the key is to determine lateral velocity.  If they just hit the border, their perpendicular velocity (to the border) is mostly nulled and their tangential velocity is transferred to a direction along the border.  Put your sight on the border and lead along the border.  A calibrating one turret shot is sometimes useful, followed by an adjustment and remaining salvo.

Just remember....border is the range.  Changes a two dimensional problem into a one dimensional problem. 

The longer they stay on the border, the more they slow down.

As with aiming at normal targets, the border shot does take some experience.  So go for it.  The more chance you get, the more you figure it out.

 

But doesn't the game's lock-on mechanic still aim at the vertical plane that goes through the target ship's keel? So if you're aiming at the border, then sometimes you're actually aiming at the point where your aim line intersects that 2d plane rather than the point on the border you want to hit.

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14 hours ago, wjp120 said:

But doesn't the game's lock-on mechanic still aim at the vertical plane that goes through the target ship's keel? So if you're aiming at the border, then sometimes you're actually aiming at the point where your aim line intersects that 2d plane rather than the point on the border you want to hit.

 

My understanding is auto lock implements a distance compression/scaling.  I've always understood this scaling to be circular (around the target).  So the scaling for a ship on the border should still provide the same relative aiming geometry as a ship not on the border.  Hence, the trick is to figure out the velocity along the border.  As this is not a natural velocity (in terms of the experience gained shooting at a target not on the border), one has to learn a different lead process (by projecting the normal velocity vector of the bow along the border).  The single dimension of the lead (border) reduces miss distances due to calculation error, but the unnatural nature of the motion takes experience (and some mental gymnastics) to get good at it. 

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19 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

I found out very early here that it is a tactic that some use as a tool very often. 

I have found that it is useful for a (seemingly) faster than otherwise possible 180 to avoid the time being broadside in a turn away from (more) enemies than expected (or if I ended up getting closer than intended).

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I have also seen the never ending torps.  Meaning once they past the edge of the map they seemed to go on forever into the abyss.  I have seen this happen more than once.  Since it is a visual affect that doesnt impact anyone I never reported it as a bug.

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On 10/31/2019 at 11:07 AM, Midshipman_Hornblower said:

I'm sure we've all seen this.  You are tracking a target, and your target steams onto the map edge. 

I've no great wisdom to share beyond what's already been written. I do however wish the map edge started causing damage that went from just a little bit until it kept increasing til it was quite deadly after a min or so. The edge huggers are annoying. 

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I don't worry about how a target maneuvers while border hugging.  They're easy targets because speed bleeds down heavily and lead required is cut down drastically.  They can try to maneuver all they want at the border, but with the speed being cut down so much, they're not going anywhere.

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On 10/31/2019 at 10:07 AM, Midshipman_Hornblower said:

Any hints on how to hit targets in this situation? 

Close range at full speed and pound their senseless sterns to oblivion.

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