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The_Chiv

Why are Italians so bad?

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After killing them in droves and trying to play them I have to say they are by far the worst cruiser line in the game. In short they are xp pinatas for every ship in the game. Its almost as if the devs have some kind of bias against Italians. 

As it stands i dont see this as a line many people will want to grind to 10 outside of die-hard collectors. They bring nothing new to game that isnt done better by any other nations ships. Even that sap gimmick is lol. We have UK cruisers who are far more useful.

I predict within the next 90 days they will be buffing this line. Personally I think those who balanced this line internally at WG should be publicly flogged on twitch, but that would break the TOS of twitch. They have failed time and time again and really do more harm to the community than help.

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     Having only played the Genoa; I feel that the Exeter, even with only six rifles is a better ship.

     I really can't see any Regina Marinara CA standing up to a Leander, Fiji, or Edinburgh.  Maybe the Neptune is a better tier 9 ship too.  I actually like the Neptune...

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I've come to believe that Genova is Italian for garbage truck.  Ridiculous reload (yes, I know they are 203's) and pathetic torpedo damage and speed.  About the only positive things I can find are the torpedo firing angles are very nice, she has decent speed and the range is ok.  Once I get all the tokens, the Genova will never leave my port again, outside Snowflake-type events.

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I have the Trento and the Zara and they are decent ships.

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I don't really feel like they are bad at all. It's just that HE spam is braindead in comparison to SAP which requires more work than simply hold the mouse button in the general direction of the enemy. They aren't really any more fragile than other cruisers, SAP hits hard if you can aim well, their torps are ok, and they are very maneuverable. The only real shortcoming is the reload which makes missed shots punishing. 

Edited by Tekina_
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I've given my positive impressions of Duca D'Aosta and Raimondo Montecuccoli elsewhere on this forum.

I don't feel they are bad ships.  I feel they offer challenging, interesting and fun game play.

I'm not the best player, and I've sunk a number of ships using them, and completed several components of the Italian Event while using those ships.

Life isn't "boring" while playing an Italian cruiser, in my opinion.  :-)

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1 hour ago, The_Chiv said:

They have failed time and time again and really do more harm to the community than help.

Put in a support ticket and wait!

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Thus far I have and have played Genova, Montecuccoli, Trento, and Zara. While I'll agree that Genova is just not in a good place I think the problem isn't inherently the ships themselves. The problem instead lies with introducing them the way they have with the two-part line release and early access ships. Let me explain.

All the lines start out similarly. At tier 1 every ship is about as close to equal as you can get, and gimmicks develop later in the line. But there is ONE exception to this rule: Black Swan. Every other tier 1 shoots HE, but Black Swan shoots short-fused AP like the rest of the RN CL line. I get the feeling that Eritrea will be loaded with SAP, and thus now players will be able to get experience with the new rounds right out the gate. You get the chance to get used to swapping between SAP and AP at tiers 2 and 3 where the biggest, baddest thing you have to worry about is a St. Louis or Kawachi. That's an important thing to have when you have a line with a gimmick that starts so early and which makes it so fundamentally different.

The thing is we don't HAVE that opportunity yet, the lowest tier we get to play with using the Italian cruisers is tier 5. Tier 5 is decidedly NOT the kiddie pool, this is NOT the place to introduce a gimmick like this, especially not on fragile ships like these. Tier 5 is isn't quite the deep end either, but the right time to learn how to use a new ammo type isn't when you're staring down a Scharnhorst in what is essentially a mini-Duca d'Aosta.

"But Landsraad," I hear you ask, "what about the Russian battleships and French destroyers? They both went through the same release schedule and came out alright, what makes the Italian cruisers different?" Well for starters the Russian battleships are basically just battleships+, they take regular battleship gameplay and exaggerate it so that you get punished more for mistakes and rewarded more for good play. And the French destroyers? They WERE initially panned during pre-release! They just bounced back faster because, well, it's easier to adapt to just not having smoke that it is to a whole new ammo selection paradigm.

So what am I trying to say? I'm saying that I like these ships, and I'll be doing something I don't often do: I'll be going back and getting the at least the tier 4 when next patch drops. I want to see how they do in lower tiers, to see what the transition from tier 1 to where we are now is like. Because I am liking Trento and Zara, and I think that I'm finally getting the hang of them. But I think that the problem people are having is that they're needing to get used to these ships in the middle-tiers where mistakes are punished more severely.

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The only Italian CA that concerns me is Venezia. 15 rifles and a big secondary battery.  Plus I think 3 torps.  No warning about Torpedos at all.  No radar. 

 

That is is what I hear.   I can get Alaska or Venezia Tier 10 CA and a 19 point Captain.   

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15 minutes ago, MudRaker227 said:

I love playing the Genova... :Smile_playing:

Ok then...

I have Genova, which needs some serious love...but other than that hot mess, I like the T7 a lot. It's a challenging ship to play but like someone pointed out, I too will try out the lower tiers when they appear in the tech tree.

Edited by _Rumple_

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4 hours ago, Tekina_ said:

I don't really feel like they are bad at all. It's just that HE spam is braindead in comparison to SAP which requires more work than simply hold the mouse button in the general direction of the enemy. They aren't really any more fragile than other cruisers, SAP hits hard if you can aim well, their torps are ok, and they are very maneuverable. The only real shortcoming is the reload which makes missed shots punishing. 

Indeed. I think WG should have made it more clear that the Italians were designed to be unforgiving and take more effort to play correctly. You can't just shoot anywhere on other ships with SAP and expect to get good results like with HE. I think one of the peculiarities of this is how they were introduced as pre-release ships available for players to get them into higher tiers right away with a new drastically different playstyle. It reminds me of Le Terrible and the French DD line which is one of the strongest in the game currently but look at what happened with that. Players got a hold of it and thought it was unusable until a few months later.

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"Aim Well" with SAP doesn't mean sh*t when the targets are bow on / sharply angled and too many sections will block the one vulnerable spot you can pen:  Superstructure.

 

SAP will bounce off the bow, deck armor of Battleships AND Cruisers.  Main Battery turrets, even poorly armored CL guns, will defeat SAP shells.  Not to mention those turrets can hide the Superstructure you're after.

 

Battleships just laugh.

 

 

The addition of Italian Cruisers and SAP is really a Battleship buff when you think about it.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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35 minutes ago, NeoRussia said:

It reminds me of Le Terrible and the French DD line which is one of the strongest in the game currently but look at what happened with that. Players got a hold of it and thought it was unusable until a few months later.

What you're not mentioning is all the buffs that they gave to LT to essentially make her a premium version of what the main line is now. You also didn't mention the concerns about being smashed by being constantly smashed CVs, a threat that has failed to materialize not because French DDs are good against aircraft (CV rockets dumpster French DDs hard) but because CVs themselves are back to being somewhat uncommon encounters.

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The 2  T5 Italian cruisers leave a lot to be desired IMO. The Italian T5 cruisers are as anemic as the GC is overpowering.

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Regia marina please someone say regia marina. 

   I love these ships they are a total different gameplay. Charging in is a big no no for RM cruisers. I've had aosta since the day he came out so had my fair share of pulverizing for overextending in RM cruisers. 

    Regarding t5 let's all remember how often t5 cruisers are outclassed by MM at  t7 and t5 cruisers of any tree succumb to this, tend to be eh as well. 

    Your concealment and silence is your friend. If you don't have a shot don't take one, be reasonable, definitely a break from other lines.  Sap is meant for soft targets, Italian AP is a beast, remember you have both for a reason.

     Now agreement with everyone that reload time is,huh? 

     And we're not bad we have awesome food. Wasn't our phony war.

Edited by grorg

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having played several games at tier 6 and 7, i can say i am not impressed.  You are constantly looking for someone who is showing some side, and hoping by the time the shells land they didn't angle anymore to auto bounce them.   You are hoping they dont just shatter the shells by hitting to thick of plates.   After the first salvo or 2  of good damage the rest after seem to offer little damage despite many pens.  If you are on a crappy team with idiotic DDs(lots of those so far today), you aren't really pushing to some flank or nice spot with crossfires.  The smoke is meh, because of the number of charges, cool down, and smoke firing penalty.  There has already been several battles, where had i been any other cruiser, even if it was a light cruiser without IFHE, i would of done far more damage via fires + pens.  Get some opponent who knows how to angle, especially in a BB, and you are useless against them.  SAP excels vs DDs, but you are relying on them being bad, or your teammates spotting them for you to have a chance at smacking them.    The concealment is just horrid on these cruisers.(to be fair, most mid tier cruisers have this problem)

 

I am still getting use the play style, and even if/when i get better at it, i still think this entire like will be frustrating.  You may get one game that is glorious, and then another game  where you are struggling to do any meaningful damage.  It reminds me at times of what the IJN DDs are sometimes like. 

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I have the Genova for the bundle recently. Its a good ship, not see much difference with other tier v cruises, I like SAP, good damage to structures.

 

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9 hours ago, Landsraad said:

Thus far I have and have played Genova, Montecuccoli, Trento, and Zara. While I'll agree that Genova is just not in a good place I think the problem isn't inherently the ships themselves. The problem instead lies with introducing them the way they have with the two-part line release and early access ships. Let me explain.

All the lines start out similarly. At tier 1 every ship is about as close to equal as you can get, and gimmicks develop later in the line. But there is ONE exception to this rule: Black Swan. Every other tier 1 shoots HE, but Black Swan shoots short-fused AP like the rest of the RN CL line. I get the feeling that Eritrea will be loaded with SAP, and thus now players will be able to get experience with the new rounds right out the gate. You get the chance to get used to swapping between SAP and AP at tiers 2 and 3 where the biggest, baddest thing you have to worry about is a St. Louis or Kawachi. That's an important thing to have when you have a line with a gimmick that starts so early and which makes it so fundamentally different.

The thing is we don't HAVE that opportunity yet, the lowest tier we get to play with using the Italian cruisers is tier 5. Tier 5 is decidedly NOT the kiddie pool, this is NOT the place to introduce a gimmick like this, especially not on fragile ships like these. Tier 5 is isn't quite the deep end either, but the right time to learn how to use a new ammo type isn't when you're staring down a Scharnhorst in what is essentially a mini-Duca d'Aosta.

"But Landsraad," I hear you ask, "what about the Russian battleships and French destroyers? They both went through the same release schedule and came out alright, what makes the Italian cruisers different?" Well for starters the Russian battleships are basically just battleships+, they take regular battleship gameplay and exaggerate it so that you get punished more for mistakes and rewarded more for good play. And the French destroyers? They WERE initially panned during pre-release! They just bounced back faster because, well, it's easier to adapt to just not having smoke that it is to a whole new ammo selection paradigm.

So what am I trying to say? I'm saying that I like these ships, and I'll be doing something I don't often do: I'll be going back and getting the at least the tier 4 when next patch drops. I want to see how they do in lower tiers, to see what the transition from tier 1 to where we are now is like. Because I am liking Trento and Zara, and I think that I'm finally getting the hang of them. But I think that the problem people are having is that they're needing to get used to these ships in the middle-tiers where mistakes are punished more severely.

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9 hours ago, Landsraad said:

Thus far I have and have played Genova, Montecuccoli, Trento, and Zara. While I'll agree that Genova is just not in a good place I think the problem isn't inherently the ships themselves. The problem instead lies with introducing them the way they have with the two-part line release and early access ships. Let me explain.

All the lines start out similarly. At tier 1 every ship is about as close to equal as you can get, and gimmicks develop later in the line. But there is ONE exception to this rule: Black Swan. Every other tier 1 shoots HE, but Black Swan shoots short-fused AP like the rest of the RN CL line. I get the feeling that Eritrea will be loaded with SAP, and thus now players will be able to get experience with the new rounds right out the gate. You get the chance to get used to swapping between SAP and AP at tiers 2 and 3 where the biggest, baddest thing you have to worry about is a St. Louis or Kawachi. That's an important thing to have when you have a line with a gimmick that starts so early and which makes it so fundamentally different.

 

Not anymore.   WG nerfed it over a year ago.  Black Swan shoots HE just like all the rest of the T1's.

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I have t5-8 italian cruiser's and have tried to make them work, to no avail. SAP is a broken idea. While every once and awhile you can get a good smack on CL/DD/CA, they are far and few between. Mostly bounce's and shatter's against any ship that has any angling. I have been running my other cruiser's to see how bad these ship's really are and I have laid waste to every italian cruiser that has crossed my path. My exeter has blapped and wreaked havok against every cruiser from t5-7 in the italian line. 

Of all the cruiser line's this is a tragedy of epic proportion's.

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11 hours ago, Tekina_ said:

I don't really feel like they are bad at all. It's just that HE spam is braindead in comparison to SAP which requires more work than simply hold the mouse button in the general direction of the enemy. They aren't really any more fragile than other cruisers, SAP hits hard if you can aim well, their torps are ok, and they are very maneuverable. The only real shortcoming is the reload which makes missed shots punishing. 

I still need to take out my Trento, but I heard that SAP is pretty damaging to destroyers.

It sounds like the Italian cruisers are pretty comparable to the German cruisers, which have bad HE.  They are an opportunistic line that takes a bit of foresight and thinking before engaging an enemy.

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1 hour ago, Stormbringer924 said:

Mostly bounce's and shatter's against any ship that has any angling.

They announced this morning they're improving the bounce angles with 0.8.10, and the ships are available to test in PTS.

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So far, I'm not a fan of the Italian cruisers, either.  BUT...we're experiencing something rather odd here.  Many, including me, FEEL like these ships aren't very effective.  But objectively, the developing stats show them to be sort of middle of the road.  As of this writing, Genova and Montecuccoli are, in terms of average damage per battle, ranked number 8 and 11, respectively, of 14 T5 cruisers on the NA server.  In other words, Genova is about in the middle of the pack and Montecuccoli is down toward the bottom.  T6 Trento is 11 of 16 (not counting the pre-spit Cleveland).  Again, at the lower end of middle-of-the-pack.

That said, there DOES seem to be a bit of a problem with SAP.  As pointed out by others, SAP CAN hit really hard, but against angled BBs, and even cruisers, the effectiveness goes WAY down.  Bow-on BBs just laugh at you.  WG has already tacitly admitted that this needs some work, having just announced that the autobounce angles for SAP will be improved for the Italians in 0.8.10.  

Personally, I have thus far struggled with this line, and so far my record in them is...well below the server averages.  That suggests to me that I have something to learn about the use of SAP, and Italian cruisers in general.  Most other players are doing better than I am.  I would guess that, over time, more of us will figure out the way to use them, and the stats will improve a bit, and our displeasure will go down a bit.  The SAP buff should help, marginally, but I suspect they are going to need further adjustments.

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