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LAnybody

SAP characteristics...

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(a) is there an explanation ANYWHERE that details how these shells work?  Penetration? Lack of fire chance? Angles? ANYTHING?

(b) the flight characteristics are TERRIBLE.  They're too flat to get over islands, and yet seem to have enormous drag, so they are incredibly awful at ranges above 7km - worse than even the US 6", and bordering on the US 5" for "moonshot" style. I'm finding I have to give almost a 15 point lead in the gunsight for shooting even incredibly slow things like US BBs.  For DDs outside 7km, I have to back out the gunsight because I can't lead enough while fully zoomed in - that is, I'm having to give almost a 20 point lead on the gunsite.   NOTHING else besides US 5" is that bad.

 

Due to their ridiculously poor ROF, the terrible gunnery characteristics of the Italians make them ships that are not worth playing at all.  They have a poor number of guns, bad turret rotation, the worst reload, and SAP seems to be completely useless against anything except DDs.

I mean, seriously, a T8 ship with 16 second reload with 9 guns?  A T6 "light" cruiser with 8 guns and 14.3 second reload and a 30-second turret rotation?  All of whom struggle to do ANY damage with SAP?  Who is the idiot that thought this up?

My Yorck (already a pretty blah ship, and one of the worst performing T6-8 cruisers) puts all Italian cruisers to shame in gunnery.  At least it hits things reliably. The italians can't hit a Colorado at 10km reliably. Heck, they have severe problems hitting stationary targets out past 12km.

Edited by LAnybody
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Hmm, I've only played two games with her at T5; but they don't "seem" that bad....

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22 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

Penetration? Lack of fire chance?

This information is in the client.
Also, it was in bullet-in, it was in the article tied to the Italian cruisers event.

22 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

Angles? ANYTHING? 

More detailed information can be found devblogs and will be doubled into a special detailed article about Italian cruisers, that will come closer to the line full release.

23 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

A T6 "light" cruiser

Trento is a heavy cruiser.

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Shell flight time to target gets better as you climb the tiers, at least to Tier VIII.  The 203mm guns start improving.

xamRfBp.jpg

 

TLDR SAP characteristics:

1.  Higher raw damage than normal HE shells, in some cases as good as AP damage.

2.  Don't really Overpen like AP shells do.

3.  No Fire Chance.

4.  The 203mm SAP have 54mm penetration.  This also means that many targets cannot be Citadeled by your SAP.  In Tier V alone, many Cruiser Armor Belts are 56mm or thicker.  As you climb the tiers, Cruiser Armor Belts get thicker and thicker.

5.  SAP shells can be bounced if they impact at too sharp an angle.

6.  They have improved bounce angles compared to normal AP, but I do not have that information on what those values are.  Not even the WoWS Wiki has that information and you won't find that in port.

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The mid-low tier Italian guns are horrible. There's not much else to say about them, the ~6" guns in particular need help.

18 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

6.  They have improved bounce angles compared to normal AP, but I do not have that information on what those values are.  Not even the WoWS Wiki has that information and you won't find that in port.

According to the latest-dated dev blog article I could find on the subject, it's 65-80 on all of them except Venezia, which has 75-80.

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59 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

Due to their ridiculously poor ROF, the terrible gunnery characteristics of the Italians make them ships that are not worth playing at all.  They have a poor number of guns, bad turret rotation, the worst reload, and SAP seems to be completely useless against anything except DDs.

Looking at the ship stats (yeah, I know it is still a bit early and unsettled for the Italian line) but the only real stinker in the group seems to be Trento. The rest seem to be hanging in mid to high ranges. Zara is kicking butt.

Probably need another month of data to see where they are really going to settle.

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21 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Looking at the ship stats (yeah, I know it is still a bit early and unsettled for the Italian line) but the only real stinker in the group seems to be Trento. The rest seem to be hanging in mid to high ranges. Zara is kicking butt.

Probably need another month of data to see where they are really going to settle.

Thank god I got my first Italian cruiser last night - Zara.  Can skip all the Bravo Sierra below Tier VII.

Edited by jmanII

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Personally, I think ITA Cruiser SAP inherits the worst qualities of HE and AP with the positive returns being quite miniscule and easily negated by an opponent that isn't asleep at the steering wheel.

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On 10/23/2019 at 9:26 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Personally, I think ITA Cruiser SAP inherits the worst qualities of HE and AP with the positive returns being quite miniscule and easily negated by an opponent that isn't asleep at the steering wheel.

This is my experience so far.

It has all the bad problem of AP:  easily bounced, no fires, not affected by IFHE

Plus all the bad problems of HE: horrid penetration, easily shattered

PLUS the problems with saturation limiting damage to portions you CAN hit.

 

And it gets.... 15% more raw damage than AP as compensation. Which turns out to be useless.

The low ROF and glacial turret traverse amplify these problems 10 fold.

Basically, you end up shooting at superstructures of CAs and BBs, and that's it. And end with 50% shatters or bounces.

 

I'll have to see how the T6+ 8" guns play, but the T5 6" ones have atrocious ballistics, too.  You can't shoot over islands with the guns, yet, you end up with rainbow arcs (just like US 5" and 6") out past 8km.  Since you don't have sufficient ROF to compensate, your total hits suffer drastically. And since they all shatter or bounce, your DPM is by far the lowest of the tier.  

I can wipe the floor of a Montecuccoli with a PHOENIX, and practically any other T4 (let alone T5) cruiser. BBs just laugh at it, because it's not a threat at all - ranged or close in, hiding or not.  And what sane DD gets within 8km of a cruiser?

I'm averaging under 50 hits per game, with 25k in damage, shooting mostly SAP. It's also a VERY low-impact ship - nothing is scared of it, and everything leaves you alone because you're pretty much worthless as a threat.

 

Edited by LAnybody
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5 hours ago, LAnybody said:

I'll have to see how the T6+ 8" guns play

I do like their accuracy. I have Zara, and the gunnery experience is nearly pleasant and would be in fact pretty decent with a 2-3 second buff to reload times and slightly faster turret traverse, without making it too powerful.

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On 10/22/2019 at 5:26 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Personally, I think ITA Cruiser SAP inherits the worst qualities of HE and AP with the positive returns being quite miniscule and easily negated by an opponent that isn't asleep at the steering wheel.

Yes. 👆

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The key to SAP is to never use them UNLESS you are shooting at a DD.

Better to use AP against an angled BB than SAP.

Yup, Italian cruisers have a big problem. 

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On 10/24/2019 at 1:12 AM, LAnybody said:

I'll have to see how the T6+ 8" guns play, but the T5 6" ones have atrocious ballistics, too.  You can't shoot over islands with the guns, yet, you end up with rainbow arcs (just like US 5" and 6") out past 8km.  Since you don't have sufficient ROF to compensate, your total hits suffer drastically. And since they all shatter or bounce, your DPM is by far the lowest of the tier.  

I can wipe the floor of a Montecuccoli with a PHOENIX, and practically any other T4 (let alone T5) cruiser. BBs just laugh at it, because it's not a threat at all - ranged or close in, hiding or not.  And what sane DD gets within 8km of a cruiser?

I'm averaging under 50 hits per game, with 25k in damage, shooting mostly SAP. It's also a VERY low-impact ship - nothing is scared of it, and everything leaves you alone because you're pretty much worthless as a threat.

 

Check the artillery chart in my earlier post, it shows the shell flight times, angle at impact of the new Tier V thru VIII tech tree ITA Cruisers.

Basically it gets better with the move to 203mm CA guns at VI Trento.  VII Zara's shell flight characteristics improve upon that.  VIII Amalfi improves upon Zara's.

Amalfi in Tier VIII, her gunnery is actually VERY good.  Low shell arcs, high velocity shells, tight groups (I have ASM1 fitted) are what I saw in my tests in Co-op with her.  The only problem for me are the SAP shells.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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OK, after playing about a score of games in the Montecuccoli, I can truly say it's a dumpster fire of a ship. FAR worse than the Emerald or Omaha, both of which have redeeming features and at least some method of making an impact.

The Montecuccoli, however, is complete and utter trash. The SAP alone is horrid, and all the other characteristics of the ship make it completely and utterly unredeemable. It simply can't contribute at ALL in any manner of play.

I'm off to play the Trento, which looks like a crappier version of the Pensacola. All the same weaknesses, none of the strengths, no offsetting advantages.

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I am curious to see the shell flight times of comperableT5 and T6 cruisers. I am really struggling to hit things at range with the Montecuccoli, especially when using the spotter plane.

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On 10/30/2019 at 8:11 AM, Grimm262 said:

I am curious to see the shell flight times of comperableT5 and T6 cruisers. I am really struggling to hit things at range with the Montecuccoli, especially when using the spotter plane.

You can check it out here and compile the chart. https://wowsft.com/arty?lang=en

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14 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You can check it out here and compile the chart. https://wowsft.com/arty?lang=en

Thanks for link. Comparing T5 cruisers for Italy, France Japan and Russia (the ones I am familiar with), it confirms my suspicion that velocity drops off dramatically at about 10km for Montecuccoli. The guns want you to close range but the armor punishes you for trying.

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On 10/24/2019 at 4:12 AM, LAnybody said:

This is my experience so far.

It has all the bad problem of AP:  easily bounced, no fires, not affected by IFHE

Plus all the bad problems of HE: horrid penetration, easily shattered

PLUS the problems with saturation limiting damage to portions you CAN hit.

 

And it gets.... 15% more raw damage than AP as compensation. Which turns out to be useless.

The low ROF and glacial turret traverse amplify these problems 10 fold.

Basically, you end up shooting at superstructures of CAs and BBs, and that's it. And end with 50% shatters or bounces.

 

I'll have to see how the T6+ 8" guns play, but the T5 6" ones have atrocious ballistics, too.  You can't shoot over islands with the guns, yet, you end up with rainbow arcs (just like US 5" and 6") out past 8km.  Since you don't have sufficient ROF to compensate, your total hits suffer drastically. And since they all shatter or bounce, your DPM is by far the lowest of the tier.  

I can wipe the floor of a Montecuccoli with a PHOENIX, and practically any other T4 (let alone T5) cruiser. BBs just laugh at it, because it's not a threat at all - ranged or close in, hiding or not.  And what sane DD gets within 8km of a cruiser?

I'm averaging under 50 hits per game, with 25k in damage, shooting mostly SAP. It's also a VERY low-impact ship - nothing is scared of it, and everything leaves you alone because you're pretty much worthless as a threat.

 

I'm doing 15K average damage with my T5 (14 games), compared to 23K average with my Omaha.

A lot of shots just plain miss. Hit ratio is at 25%, but many times nothing hits, so I don't know how this metric is calculated, like in one shell in a turret made contact, or ?

With Kirov I was close to 27K average. No comparo.

T4 Italian cruiser much better at 18.6K average damage (13 games).

Omaha will eat my lunch, as will Kirov.

Don't even mention a real-life uptiered battle with the likes of Atlanta and Helena.

My two slow speed 10km torps are certainly a novelty, but so far, great planning is needed to put to practical use. Torp hit ratio is 5%.

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The SAP works; at least from t8-10.  (I was fortunate enough to be able to start the line at Amalfi)  The key with SAP is to be patient and opportunistic - you have to focus less on one target and just take shots at anything giving you broadside.  With Venezia I can regularly take 8-14k chunks of BB health at 12-14km range with SAP.  Honestly I find the SAP to be more reliable than the Italian AP, which thus far seems finicky about even slight angles.  Even with what I think is good aim, I am often left with overpens/shatters with the AP.  Starting to wonder if the flatter arcs are causing the shells to skim over or skip off the top of the citadel spaces in enemy ships. 

The initial velocity on the shells is quite good, but they do get a bit floaty out to max range but that just means your excellent SAP penetration will be falling more vertically onto enemy decks which should yield good results. 

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4 hours ago, Uncle_Lou said:

The SAP works; at least from t8-10.  (I was fortunate enough to be able to start the line at Amalfi)  The key with SAP is to be patient and opportunistic - you have to focus less on one target and just take shots at anything giving you broadside.  With Venezia I can regularly take 8-14k chunks of BB health at 12-14km range with SAP.  Honestly I find the SAP to be more reliable than the Italian AP, which thus far seems finicky about even slight angles.  Even with what I think is good aim, I am often left with overpens/shatters with the AP.  Starting to wonder if the flatter arcs are causing the shells to skim over or skip off the top of the citadel spaces in enemy ships. 

The initial velocity on the shells is quite good, but they do get a bit floaty out to max range but that just means your excellent SAP penetration will be falling more vertically onto enemy decks which should yield good results. 

the reason it works in t7 and upper tiers is because there are less WW1 ship with that heavy style of armor around the ship while from t7 we start seeing more WW2 ships with more parts of 32mm making it possible for the sap to do more damage and become more efficient cause there is more place to do damage and less to shatter 

the higher you go the better the enemies armor for your sap as simple as that

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