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General_Strom

Secondary gun range unfairness.

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WG, you started out with BBs having no real secondary range, now you have BBs with varying ranges from long to short.   I find the pay to play Premiums seem to have long range secondaries for the most part.  There really should not be that much of a spread in secondary ranges as you have in this game.  I am tired of getting nickle and dime to death from ships with 10k secondaries when the average ship is way shorter.  Just my 2 cents.  

Do NOT do like WoT and make new ships creep up on defense and firepower.  That ruined WoT for me.

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7 minutes ago, General_Strom said:

WG, you started out with BBs having no real secondary range, now you have BBs with varying ranges from long to short.   I find the pay to play Premiums seem to have long range secondaries for the most part.  There really should not be that much of a spread in secondary ranges as you have in this game.  I am tired of getting nickle and dime to death from ships with 10k secondaries when the average ship is way shorter.  Just my 2 cents.  

Do NOT do like WoT and make new ships creep up on defense and firepower.  That ruined WoT for me.

Last I checked, Alsace and Republique are tech tree ships with 13.7 km secondaries......

BISMARCK is tech tree ship....

Genes is too....

 

This just off the top of my head...

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SorryWut.thumb.jpg.d7ca01e3a38e99bc40637ed7e8ef131d.jpg

You know how much of that 122K was secondaries?

:Smile_hiding: ... About 1 naked Mahan's worth that decided to spam guns in the open...Then he turned around and tried to yolo torp me.

Everything else it just tickled. Just don't be "that mahan". My pay-to-play secondaries aren't the beefy  105 &150's secondaries suit that the tech tree German ships get. They don't do all that much even with the 10k+ range. I have to get right up on something before it really starts to add up...or they have to sit there for a whole minute or two and let me farm 287 secondary hits.

I wish my pay-to-play ship had those kind of beefy secondaries. On top of the Georgia pay to play accuracy.:Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by Vekta408
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Massachusetts and Tirpitz are the only secondary BBs I can think of that you can't get for free.  Georgia is a coal ship, the Bismark, Freddie, and Kurfurst are tech tree, as well as the aforementioned Frenchies.

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What BBs or lines are you referring to?  German tech tree and FR BBs both have some of the longest if not the longest secondary ranges in the higher tiers.  Mid tier secondary range is pretty meh, but even there germans have good range.

 

The US tech tree secondaries for whatever reason are gimped which makes the Mass and Georgia(ohio as well? i dont remember if has better secondaries compared to monty)  stand out more.   That said, they aren't that impressive due to the lack of pen and fire chance.  They only really stand out against ships with <=25mm armor(if you have IFHE) who are in a position where shells can consistently hit it.

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12 minutes ago, General_Strom said:

I find the pay to play Premiums seem to have long range secondaries for the most part.

They do not exist. There is nothing in the game that one can purchase that is so much better than the tech tree ships or standard equipment. Secondary gun ranges varied just as main gun ranges did from nation to nation and ship types and classes.

All you accomplish with there make the game the way I want it to be posts is stir up trouble and spread falsehoods.

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Even with IFHE, at least on Georgia, it only wrecks DD and cruisers when top tier.  Same tier and bottom tier it can take a while. To be fair it is strong enough that you can realistically engage 2-3 targets at once but at some point you'll have to turn your main guns on the other guy unless they were almost dead to begin with. (or tunnel vision on someone else and get farmed for a whole minute nonstop)

Edited by Vekta408

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24 minutes ago, General_Strom said:

WG, you started out with BBs having no real secondary range, now you have BBs with varying ranges from long to short. 

There is a trade off for increased secondary range in many ships. My Massachusetts has 11 km (more or less) secondaries but it also has 18 km primaries.

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Yeah this argument doesn't hold water, particularly when two of those "pay to win secondary ships" have their sisters in the tech tree at the same tier with secondaries that are at least as good. Plus, let's not forget that the longest ranged secondary ship in the game (Republique) is a tech tree tier 10.

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46 minutes ago, General_Strom said:

 I find the pay to play Premiums seem to have long range secondaries for the most part. 

Bismarck

FDG

GK

Alsace

Repub

 

All Tech Tree ships.    

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41 minutes ago, Mothermoy said:

Didn't the Germans have the best secondaries way before the prems? 

You mean like Scharnhorst and Tirpitz?

26 minutes ago, Vekta408 said:

Same tier and bottom tier it can take a while.

When is a tier 9 "BOTTOM" tier?

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49 minutes ago, General_Strom said:

WG, you started out with BBs having no real secondary range, now you have BBs with varying ranges from long to short.   I find the pay to play Premiums seem to have long range secondaries for the most part.  There really should not be that much of a spread in secondary ranges as you have in this game.  I am tired of getting nickle and dime to death from ships with 10k secondaries when the average ship is way shorter.  Just my 2 cents.  

Do NOT do like WoT and make new ships creep up on defense and firepower.  That ruined WoT for me.

OK, let's first agree that this is a game with made up physics, uses historical systems that are NOT accurately portrayed and often mixes up facts to suit game play requirements (often in very illogical ways.....)

Take the US 5" multi-purpose gun mount.  Found on everything from DD's to Aircraft Carriers.  And, they were dual purpose designed.....  Now, let's take some historical data......like an average range at a 45 degree elevation using a standard HE round....  It travels at or around 2,600 FPS and travels out to 10 miles or 16 kilometers.....  On every ship that used it.......  OK, then why are the M38's on some BB "governed" to 5K?  Or, the CL's at 13.2?  Or, some DD's at 12?  The same gun system (even though there were a lot of turret variants, they used the 5" weapon...)  WHY?

Because this is a game....  Imagine the Atlanta/Flint at 16 K.  The Iowa''s 10, 5" mounts at 16 K.  Yep, you guessed it, that's too far !!!  Really?  It's a game and there are far worse "oh my GoD, how did they come up with that" issues out there to even worry about secondary guns....  Take Radar.  HE Spam.  Dispersion.  Hit box "saturation" and all things RNG....  Secondaries don't even come close.....

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1 hour ago, General_Strom said:

WG, you started out with BBs having no real secondary range, now you have BBs with varying ranges from long to short.   I find the pay to play Premiums seem to have long range secondaries for the most part.  There really should not be that much of a spread in secondary ranges as you have in this game.  I am tired of getting nickle and dime to death from ships with 10k secondaries when the average ship is way shorter.  Just my 2 cents.  

Do NOT do like WoT and make new ships creep up on defense and firepower.  That ruined WoT for me.

Hold my beer.

 

In this episode of "The More You Know™", we discuss the battleships with long range secondaries: Bismarck(Is speshul and needs no nickname), SingtoMyRichiloulou, Fat Freddy, Even Fatter Freddy, TheSpiceofAllTimes, TheRepubliqueofSecondaries, IzumoWrestler, and YammytheTaterBeeBee, EyeOhWHAAAAAA, and MontanasRevenge, these ships have secondaries of at least 9.1km max range. They are all, shockingly, tech tree ships. All are free, all perform very well as secondary focused ships.

 

Add to that the battleships NorthNotSouthCarolina, Cololololololololarado, NormansMustDie, LYONLYONLYONLYONLYON, Bayern-MunichFC, and GneiseNomsonYouNow, No, Gato! and TheMightyBattlecru-ImeanBattlesh-ImeanAircraftCarr-ImeanScrappedAmagi, these ships have at least 7.2km max range and work fine with secondary builds(Yes, even ManyLolzoftheRiverRado). That is  tech tree, meaning "Ain't no payin' fer playin' here, bucko" ships, at least, just from the battleship lines, there are also multiple cruisers from the tech trees with long(ish)(er) secondary ranges, such as Der Memes, ROO-ROO-ROO-ROOOOOOONNNN, FatBottomedGirlImeanHindenburg, and ZaooooooOMGTHATSALOTOFHESPAM.

 

Now, for premiums, we have Derpitz times 2 because 2 is always better than one, and that applies to FussyChooChoo, as well, JohnNotJeen Bart, BurgerMastersUnite, and No-oneMemesLikeGascon for ships with at 10.6km of max secondary range. For prems with max 7.2km range, we have a shockingly low number, by that, I mean there's 3 I can think of, but don't quote me on that,  PFFFFFFFFFIMeanPEF, RammerJammerBamasaHammer, and IJustKiidYourCar.

 

So, my count says, I think, 18 tech tree battleships with max  7.2KM secondary range or more, and 10 premiums with max 7.2km secondary range, or more.

 

Give me my beer back, please and thank you.

 

Hold my beer again. I forgot GeorgiaHowls, Oh, Hi, Oh, and YourHorseisMoreShinyThanMine, also, MightyMisery. So, 14 premiums. 14 to 18, the premiums lose, and so do you. We all have free access to ships with max 7.2km of secondary range from T6 onwards. It's late, sue me. I warn you, I'm on disability, so take your chances.

Edited by TheKrimzonDemon
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19 minutes ago, Umikami said:

You mean like Scharnhorst and Tirpitz?

When is a tier 9 "BOTTOM" tier?

Happens a lot. Fighting Kremlins and Midways is fun and engaging *attempts to keep straight face*

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I am wondering if secondaries can be revisited for more use. It feels like it is a wasted attribute, to be honest. Does anyone feel that way?

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Eh... I wouldn't say it's a waste. Granted on some ships it's more about fun than min-max build. A side from fun secondaries are handy when you're trying to stay just close enough to help smaller ships out if you can find a good position. You become that big annoying thing they don't want to push against to get at your smaller ships.

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The problem with secondary range is it is one range for all of the secondary and tertiary guns instead of giving each caliber grouping its own range like they did with AA.

10 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

OK, let's first agree that this is a game with made up physics, uses historical systems that are NOT accurately portrayed and often mixes up facts to suit game play requirements (often in very illogical ways.....)

Take the US 5" multi-purpose gun mount.  Found on everything from DD's to Aircraft Carriers.  And, they were dual purpose designed.....  Now, let's take some historical data......like an average range at a 45 degree elevation using a standard HE round....  It travels at or around 2,600 FPS and travels out to 10 miles or 16 kilometers.....  On every ship that used it.......  OK, then why are the M38's on some BB "governed" to 5K?  Or, the CL's at 13.2?  Or, some DD's at 12?  The same gun system (even though there were a lot of turret variants, they used the 5" weapon...)  WHY?

Because this is a game....  Imagine the Atlanta/Flint at 16 K.  The Iowa''s 10, 5" mounts at 16 K.  Yep, you guessed it, that's too far !!!  Really?  It's a game and there are far worse "oh my GoD, how did they come up with that" issues out there to even worry about secondary guns....  Take Radar.  HE Spam.  Dispersion.  Hit box "saturation" and all things RNG....  Secondaries don't even come close.....

Ranges of all ships are reduced/scaled down from historical, the Iowa, which I chose because it only has one caliber for its secondary/tertiary guns, for example had a real world maximum range of 32 km where in game it is 21 or 23 km depending on which hull while the secondaries are limited to 6 km which is a larger percentage reduction to range than the main guns take. Using the same percentage loss they should have a range around 10 km.

8 minutes ago, Diddy_Kongs_Quest said:

I am wondering if secondaries can be revisited for more use. It feels like it is a wasted attribute, to be honest. Does anyone feel that way?

I feel that the Mikasa in particular needs some secondary love as the pre-Dreadnought battleships and armored cruisers relied on their secondary guns for much of their fire power and I want to see more of the pre-Dreadnought's in the game and would like for them to be viable in random matches.

The same desire applies to the Viribus Unitus because of its exceedingly wimpy AA for a tier 5 ship and even if she was dropped to tier 4 it would be nothing to write home about. There are 12 Skoda 7 cm K10 66 mm, the Austrian's have odd gun nomenclature for anti-ship guns, anti-torpedo guns that had a new mount designed for them in 1915 that made them dual purpose. Even if they were never upgraded, which I doubt as the upgrade is something that doesn't need a dry dock, game play trumps reality and even with them she would not be anything close to the Texas in swatting planes from the sky. With them CV players wouldn't be able to laugh maniacally while they molest her.

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29 minutes ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

Bismarck(Is speshul and needs no nickname),

This may be true, but I propose "Otto von Biz Markie"

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1 minute ago, Landsraad said:

This may be true, but I propose "Otto von Biz Markie"

I was leaning towards "FirstChanceloroftheReichMark", but I decided Bizy was speshul snoflaek.  :3

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1 hour ago, General_Strom said:

WG, you started out with BBs having no real secondary range, now you have BBs with varying ranges from long to short.   I find the pay to play Premiums seem to have long range secondaries for the most part.  There really should not be that much of a spread in secondary ranges as you have in this game.  I am tired of getting nickle and dime to death from ships with 10k secondaries when the average ship is way shorter.  Just my 2 cents.  

Do NOT do like WoT and make new ships creep up on defense and firepower.  That ruined WoT for me.

The only premium ships I can think of that have significantly better secondary guns than their nearest tech tree rivals are Graf Zeppelin and Graf Spee.

Graf Zeppelin is a CV, and while she out secondary guns every other CV and many battleships in game, she's a CV and really doesn't carry the armor for secondary brawling. Plus, as a CV, you really shouldn't be speccing into that.

Graf Spee is a tier 6 cruiser, and cruiser secondaries aren't normally a topic of discussion at that tier. Graf Spee's are almost at tier 6 battleship levels. But she's a weird hybrid anyway.

Some of the other premium BB's look like they've got superior secondaries (in other words, Massachusetts) but you just have to look at the German and French tech trees for the serious secondary boats.

Mikasa might count, but she doesn't have a tech tree equivalent, and her secondaries are actually her main guns, the turret mounted noisemakers aren't what you would call effective weapons.

Edited by SgtBeltfed

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4 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

The only premium ships I can think of that have significantly better secondary guns than their nearest tech tree rivals are Graf Zeppelin and Graf Spee.

Graf Zeppelin is a CV, any while she out secondary guns every other CV and many battleships in game, she's a CV and really doesn't carry the armor for secondary brawling. Plus, as a CV, you really shouldn't be speccing into that.

Graf Spee is a tier 6 cruiser, and cruiser secondaries aren't normally a topic of discussion at that tier. Graf Spee's are almost at tier 6 battleship levels. But she's a weird hybrid anyway.

Some of the other premium BB's look like they've got superior secondaries (in other words, Massachusetts) but you just have to look at the German and French tech trees for the serious secondary boats.

Mikasa might count, but she doesn't have a tech tree equivalent, and her secondaries are actually her main guns, the turret mounted noisemakers aren't what you would call effective weapons.

Yeah, GZ's guns CAN get you out of a scrape or two if you're attentive and/or lucky, but shouldn't be relied upon or spec'd into too deeply. AFT (helps your AA too!) and secondary mod are as far as I would take that train. Kaga has some decent ones too, though their range is a bit more limited so they're less worth it. I'm still sitting over here waiting for that premium 8"-armed Lexington and a Saratoga swap, WeeGee! Get on it!

I never really thought of Spee's secondaries being *that* much of an asset, but they can get the job done. The German cruisers in general get good secondaries once you get to Hipper. Well, for cruisers anyway. Siegfried looks like she'll be the first ship to really challenge the cruiser secondary gun "meta" with her battleship-like range.

Yeah, agreed on Mikasa though those guns could use more range. Even half a kilometer would do wonders for her in those close-range tier 2 battles! She also needs some competition.

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Mindless secondary DMG should not over take flooding or torp DMG... Though I am not surprised if they do since WG has created in the last 2 years. A disproportionate DMG problem for all ship classes/ all ship's ordnance.

Edited by Navalpride33

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1 hour ago, Asym_KS said:

OK, let's first agree that this is a game with made up physics, uses historical systems that are NOT accurately portrayed and often mixes up facts to suit game play requirements (often in very illogical ways.....)

Take the US 5" multi-purpose gun mount.  Found on everything from DD's to Aircraft Carriers.  And, they were dual purpose designed.....  Now, let's take some historical data......like an average range at a 45 degree elevation using a standard HE round....  It travels at or around 2,600 FPS and travels out to 10 miles or 16 kilometers.....  On every ship that used it.......  OK, then why are the M38's on some BB "governed" to 5K?  Or, the CL's at 13.2?  Or, some DD's at 12?  The same gun system (even though there were a lot of turret variants, they used the 5" weapon...)  WHY?

Because this is a game....  Imagine the Atlanta/Flint at 16 K.  The Iowa''s 10, 5" mounts at 16 K.  Yep, you guessed it, that's too far !!!  Really?  It's a game and there are far worse "oh my GoD, how did they come up with that" issues out there to even worry about secondary guns....  Take Radar.  HE Spam.  Dispersion.  Hit box "saturation" and all things RNG....  Secondaries don't even come close.....

Well, generally range limits for primary guns deal with the height of the director tower and modernity of the direction system used(normally for the 5"/38 this is very good). Atlanta has somewhat longer range than the USN DD's, due to her higher superstructure.

Secondary guns are usually limited in relation to ballistic range, higher ballistic guns get longer range across the whole ship. The USN 5"/38 is not a very high ballistic gun, which is something any USN DD player is very familiar with. Realistically the limit for effective fire from this gun is no more than 12-14km depending on target(this is something the USN actually became aware of even before WWII, as newer torpedoes could get in range before the 5"/38. The 5"/54 existed in large part to rectify this). Now the secondary limit is way shorter in game, primarily to limit effectiveness of battleships, which historically could fight off destroyers and cruisers with their secondary fire alone. Obviously that wouldn't be fair in a game where ships are matched without regard to class, so secondaries have greatly reduced range and accuracy.

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