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Even in 1910, CV players enjoyed a game of plink the battleship. 

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Even in 1910, CV players enjoyed a game of plink the battleship. 

In September 1910, the Harvard Aeronautical Society and the Boston Globe sponsored an Aviation Meet for enthusiastic daredevils, who competed with one another over who could drop the most bombs on the artificial battleship.

Arguments were already raging, over what this meant for battleships, when the idea that a cheap and flimsy (bi)plane, might take off from a cobbled together flightdeck, and sink a mighty and expensive warship.

Oh, and blame this aviation hero, especially, 220px-Eugeneely.jpg 

for doing this

image.png.24476692bba2df384e66bcbe695abf43.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Burton_Ely


So lets remember, when we argue about CVs, and get salty about the role of battleships and aircraft carriers, we are not the first. This very same argument has been raging since 1910.

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But it wasn't until 1922 When Billy Mitchell Conducted tests ON ANCHORED unmaned BB's. Yes the BB's we sunk, But not many planes scored direct hits and it took A LONG tie to sinks the Targeted BB's. And Those planes flew from an airstrip on the GROUND, Not a CV. CV's were NOT safley operational until the late 20"s. So still History shows CV's were NOT used in WW1 out in the open ocean against Fleets. Tier 2, 3, and 4 Ships Should not be subjected to airstrikes IMHO. CV's should start at tier 5. That would be more accurate. But this is a Game where history and facts are ignored. Just like BB's being citadeled through the thickest part of thier armor is very inaccurate historically. Some suffered catostrophic Hits to the turrests and plunging fire through lightly armored decks but not through thier side belts

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15 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

So still History shows CV's were NOT used in WW1

not by the USA, but by 1914-15, the RN had overcome its reserves, and started actively deploying seaplane tenders (deck launched, floatplane recovery). The 1st ship sunk by a carrier launched torpedo bomber, was by the Royal Navy, in 1915.

As for fleet operations, a seaplane tender was designated to accompany the Grand Fleet,

Belligerents
23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png United Kingdom 23px-Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg.png Germany
Commanders and leaders
Strength

on the day it confronted the German High Seas fleet at the Battle of Jutland, only thick fog forced the seaplne tender to stay in port.

While HMS Ark Royal, laid down in 1914 300px-Ark_Royal_NARA_45513193.jpg was the first aircraft (seaplane) carrier, to launch a seaborne airstrike versus a major enemy warship, SMS Goeben, in 1918 (unsuccessful).

these are just a few examples, I have many more if you wish to continue denying that aircraft carriers were not used during ww1 (and let's not get semantic about seaplanes, if they took off from off a flat top, that's good enough.)

 

That's history for you, educational :Smile_trollface:

 

 

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12 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

not by the USA, but by 1914-15, the RN had overcome its reserves, and started actively deploying seaplane tenders (deck launched, floatplane recovery). The 1st ship sunk by a carrier launched torpedo bomber, was by the Royal Navy, in 1915.

As for fleet operations, a seaplane tender was designated to accompany the Grand Fleet,

Belligerents
23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png United Kingdom 23px-Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg.png Germany
Commanders and leaders
Strength

on the day it confronted the German High Seas fleet at the Battle of Jutland, only thick fog forced the seaplne tender to stay in port.

While HMS Ark Royal, laid down in 1914 300px-Ark_Royal_NARA_45513193.jpg was the first aircraft (seaplane) carrier, to launch a seaborne airstrike versus a major enemy warship, SMS Goeben, in 1918 (unsuccessful).

these are just a few examples, I have many more if you wish to continue denying that aircraft carriers were not used during ww1 (and let's not get semantic about seaplanes, if they took off from off a flat top, that's good enough.)

 

That's history for you, educational :Smile_trollface:

 

 

No it is not good enough. In WW! there were NOT many CV's and None at all patrolling open oceans. The last thing crews were worried about was Planes attacking from the air. IN WOW thier are two and sometimes 3 CV's in one game with Dozens of torp planes and bombers not to mention planes with Rockets,,which were ONLY used on trenches and not on CV's. The Game is Not accurate any way you slice it. But the last thing a CV player wants in lower tiers is historical accuracy. 

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14 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

In WW! there were NOT many CV's

this is true.

15 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

IN WOW thier are two and sometimes 3 CV's in one game with Dozens of torp planes and bombers not to mention planes with Rockets,

well, you would probably prefer seaplane carriers that launched no more than a half dozen torpedo bombers then, imagine, rather than being attacked by ww2 era aircraft, your tier 4 Kongo were attacked by 300px-Short-166-chb100.jpg

the Short 166, for example.

BTW, I am not arguing for historical accuracy, I am only arguing for the sake of the 110 year old tradition, of arguing about CVs!

 

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Sir, my point is CV's should not be played against tier 2,3 and 4 ships.  Most people join and play world of warships to have surface battles. Not worry about planes and subs. Thats why the Majority of the player population is upset with the way WOW is heading

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4 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

Sir, my point is CV's should not be played against tier 2,3 and 4 ships.  Most people join and play world of warships to have surface battles. Not worry about planes and subs. Thats why the Majority of the player population is upset with the way WOW is heading

ah that is for a separate discussion, there are threads for that. Far too serious for this one :Smile_hiding:

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1 hour ago, LoveBote said:

The 1st ship sunk by a carrier launched torpedo bomber, was by the Royal Navy, in 1915.

Notice you say “ship” not “warship”.

They were sinking ferries, freighters, and tugboats. Not anything that could shoot back. Heck, one of the ships sank actually sailed up to the plane because it suffered engine trouble and had to land.

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4 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Notice you say “ship” not “warship”.

They were sinking ferries, freighters, and tugboats. Not anything that could shoot back. Heck, one of the ships sank actually sailed up to the plane because it suffered engine trouble and had to land.

and so? They were legit wartime targets. But, ship encompasses warships too. If direct air attacks upon large warships were rare during the 1st world war, they did occur. The principal occupation of naval aviation between 1914 and 1918 was as air scouts, but these scouts were armed, and did attack surface naval targets. 107 German submarines were attacked by Royal Navy Air Service airplanes, in 1917 alone. Rarish..

 

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55 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

Sir, my point is CV's should not be played against tier 2,3 and 4 ships.  Most people join and play world of warships to have surface battles. Not worry about planes and subs. Thats why the Majority of the player population is upset with the way WOW is heading

Amend to tiers 3,4.  Tier 2 doesn't see CV's.

I have zero issue with CV's at any tier.  They can only be in one place at a time, and unless I am severely damaged cant kill me with one squadron.  I see them as less dangerous than an enemy ship that is concentrating on me.  I dont have a main, I play all classes and tiers.  Carriers are just one more enemy in the mix.

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4 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

and so? They were legit wartime targets. But, ship encompasses warships too. If direct air attacks upon large warships were rare during the 1st world war, they did occur. The principal occupation of naval aviation between 1914 and 1918 was as air scouts, but these scouts were armed, and did attack surface naval targets. 107 German submarines were attacked by Royal Navy Air Service airplanes, in 1917 alone. Rarish..

 

Yes,,Subs were attacked,,mostly at There base from Land launched aircraft! Dude,,Give it up. CV's do not belong in lower tier games. Period. I will never change my mind because it's not historically accurate,,and YesmmI wish the gamme was totaly historically accurate

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6 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

Yes,,Subs were attacked,,mostly at There base from Land launched aircraft! Dude,,Give it up. CV's do not belong in lower tier games. Period. I will never change my mind because it's not historically accurate,,and YesmmI wish the gamme was totaly historically accurate

please, the OP is not a proposal for inclusion in WOWS. Stop derailing the conversation. It is intended only as a light hearted discussion on the nature of the CV vs BB argument that has been underway for 110 years. Yet you are anything but lighthearted, lighten up!

 

2 hours ago, LoveBote said:

So lets remember, when we argue about CVs, and get salty about the role of battleships and aircraft carriers, we are not the first. This very same argument has been raging since 1910.

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7 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

Yes,,Subs were attacked,,mostly at There base from Land launched aircraft! Dude,,Give it up. CV's do not belong in lower tier games. Period. I will never change my mind because it's not historically accurate,,and YesmmI wish the gamme was totaly historically accurate

Also not historically accurate...

 

DD=CA=BB power levels

unlimited shells

unlimited torpedoes

perfect smoke in both size and duration

perfect sea state

rare weather events

unhistorically high accuracy rates of main gun fire

perfect and instantaneous spotting information relayed between friendly ships

Edited by Grimm262
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25 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

and so? They were legit wartime targets. But, ship encompasses warships too. If direct air attacks upon large warships were rare during the 1st world war, they did occur. The principal occupation of naval aviation between 1914 and 1918 was as air scouts, but these scouts were armed, and did attack surface naval targets. 107 German submarines were attacked by Royal Navy Air Service airplanes, in 1917 alone. Rarish..

 

Where is the tugboat, ferry, and freighter lines in the game then?

As mentioned elsewhere, the sub attacks were virtually exclusively land based aircraft.

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19 minutes ago, LoveBote said:

please, the OP is not a proposal for inclusion in WOWS. Stop derailing the conversation. It is intended only as a light hearted discussion on the nature of the CV vs BB argument that has been underway for 110 years. Yet you are anything but lighthearted, lighten up!

You are the one that brought up sub attacks by air.

Edited by HazardDrake

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1 minute ago, HazardDrake said:

Where is the tugboat, ferry, and freighter lines in the game then?

As mentioned elsewhere, the sub attacks were virtually exclusively land based aircraft.

You seem lost. This is not about CVs in WOWS, you are in the wrong thread.

read the OP if in doubt

2 hours ago, LoveBote said:

So lets remember, when we argue about CVs, and get salty about the role of battleships and aircraft carriers, we are not the first. This very same argument has been raging since 1910.

sigh*

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Early aviation was full of problems and optimism which many times contradicted each other.  Yes, they were playing plunk the battleship, but let's be honest, planes in 1910 would have been very lucky to score a hit on a BB in a real combat situation.  And sinking it, not seeing it at all as both numbers needed and actual heavy bombs were not there (especially for carrier planes).  It would take another 20-30 years for that to realistically happen.  As for Mitchell, there were a lot of problems there as well, he actually could have been much more helpful if his ego hadn't gotten in the way.

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14 minutes ago, Wowzery said:

Early aviation was full of problems and optimism which many times contradicted each other.  Yes, they were playing plunk the battleship, but let's be honest, planes in 1910 would have been very lucky to score a hit on a BB in a real combat situation.  And sinking it, not seeing it at all as both numbers needed and actual heavy bombs were not there (especially for carrier planes).  It would take another 20-30 years for that to realistically happen.  As for Mitchell, there were a lot of problems there as well, he actually could have been much more helpful if his ego hadn't gotten in the way.

I see 1910 as analaguous to contemporary experiments with crewless AI droneships, 300px-Sea_Hunter_gets_underway_on_the_Wi visionary, experimental, laying the groundwork, solving essential problems (take off and landing on a moving warship, for example), exploratory. 4 years later, the other side of the Atlantic, the British would draw inspiration (and lessons) from the American experiments. As for the mockup BB exercise, I am sure it was more a publicity stunt, conducted by private sponsors, to capture public imagination (and it worked at the time, the American press was very enthusiastic).

In 1910 New York's World claimed "the battles of the future would be fought in the air", which would be like today's Wired magazine publishing an Elon Musk press release about sending breeding couples of humans to Mars by rocketship within a decade, without a trace of irony.

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3 hours ago, LoveBote said:

image.png.39a78968b8ec8f2da507dfb31bc8acb0.png

Even in 1910, CV players enjoyed a game of plink the battleship. 

In September 1910, the Harvard Aeronautical Society and the Boston Globe sponsored an Aviation Meet for enthusiastic daredevils, who competed with one another over who could drop the most bombs on the artificial battleship.

Arguments were already raging, over what this meant for battleships, when the idea that a cheap and flimsy (bi)plane, might take off from a cobbled together flightdeck, and sink a mighty and expensive warship.

Oh, and blame this aviation hero, especially, 220px-Eugeneely.jpg 

for doing this

image.png.24476692bba2df384e66bcbe695abf43.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Burton_Ely


So lets remember, when we argue about CVs, and get salty about the role of battleships and aircraft carriers, we are not the first. This very same argument has been raging since 1910.

Actually the argument started shortly after the Wright brothers first flight.

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It's not really the first time a air wing used a dummy for target practice. I know we had ones of Hitler in WW2, and Kim Jong Il once upon a time.  This is pretty normal for training, and is no different from any artillery test, Warship test, or Infantry live fire training program ever devised.

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5 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Actually the argument started shortly after the Wright brothers first flight.

I'd love to read a quote/source to an earlier argument on this topic, if you have one.

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1 hour ago, LoveBote said:

You seem lost. This is not about CVs in WOWS, you are in the wrong thread.

 read the OP if in doubt

Then why is the thread in the General Gameplay forum?

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13 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

Then why is the thread in the General Gameplay forum?

for light hearted amusement. Now find a mirror, tell yourself a joke, and lighten up. Life can be fun, occasionally :Smile_hiding:

besides, if you had bothered to read the OP (I gave up hoping for that) you'd have noticed, it is intended to be a discussion, about our ongoing discussion, so common to WOWS forum #general, CVs vs BBs. Or in boringly serious terms; a meta level observation of cultural discourse concerning battleships and carriers throughout history, and on the WOWS #general folder. Hope that helps.

there are days when I verge on the f! word, so I'll see myself out.

Spoiler

for this reason, putting you temporarily on ignore

 

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