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Jedrzejczyk

Improved bots on test server

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Just finished playing over a dozen games in coop on the test server. I'm a player who normally has nothing good to say about WG programming. I can't do that this time. The improvements to the bot playstyles are fantastic. The quality of the game just went up immeasurably. For the first time in awhile, I had the feeling I was in a naval battle. I hope others will agree that the new bots will provide us with some actual competition. 

 

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Edited by Jedrzejczyk

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17 minutes ago, Jedrzejczyk said:

Just finished playing over a dozen games in coop on the test server. I'm a player who normally has nothing good to say about WG programming. I can't do that this time. The improvements to the bot playstyles are fantastic. The quality of the game just went up immeasurably. For the first time in awhile, I had the feeling I was in a naval battle. I hope others will agree that the new bots will provide us with some actual competition. 

Expect complaints from the PvE crew.The last time the bots had their intelligence improved the forums lit up.

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1 hour ago, Jedrzejczyk said:

Just finished playing over a dozen games in coop on the test server. I'm a player who normally has nothing good to say about WG programming. I can't do that this time. The improvements to the bot playstyles are fantastic. The quality of the game just went up immeasurably. For the first time in awhile, I had the feeling I was in a naval battle. I hope others will agree that the new bots will provide us with some actual competition. 

Its already active on live. I couldn’t disagree with you more. The point of coop is to get in smash bots in the mouth, get out and repeat. Now the bots are camping, back and forthing, and hiding and its taking longer to kill them all. If i want that i’ll play randoms- 80% of players in randoms are no better than bots anyway. I wont even speak about the bots using hydro and radar... 

@AdmiralThunder your thoughts?

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19 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

Its already active on live. I couldn’t disagree with you more. The point of coop is to get in smash bots in the mouth, get out and repeat. Now the bots are camping, back and forthing, and hiding and its taking longer to kill them all. If i want that i’ll play randoms- 80% of players in randoms are no better than bots anyway. I wont even speak about the bots using hydro and radar... 

@AdmiralThunder your thoughts?

Mostly I just see them running away in stupid circumstances...

...of course that’s kind of what humans do as well; so I suppose then the bots are now very human like?

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I might agree with you somewhat if I agreed at all on this "80% of players in randoms are no better than bots anyway". The way I see it, 5% of the players in randoms are as good or better than the new bots, while 50% play so poorly that I don't waste my time playing randoms. These 50% are not likely to be of any value - other than bait - to any team in any game mode. I'd prefer to be in a game with a lower percentage of dead weight.

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1 minute ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Mostly I just see them running away in stupid circumstances...

...of course that’s kind of what humans do as well; so I suppose then the bots are now very human like?

Tell me about it. Chasing bots around the map is not my idea of fun coop play. But i guess the best change they could ever make is to stop the bots from ramming each other by default. This is realiy a pain when you are the only human player since they inevitably manage to give the red bots a couple of die hards leaving you shorthanded and eventually alone facing multiple reds. In a dd that’s no problem, but in a cl it can often lead to a loss.

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2 minutes ago, Jedrzejczyk said:

I might agree with you somewhat if I agreed at all on this "80% of players in randoms are no better than bots anyway". The way I see it, 5% of the players in randoms are as good or better than the new bots, while 50% play so poorly that I don't waste my time playing randoms. These 50% are not likely to be of any value - other than bait - to any team in any game mode. I'd prefer to be in a game with a lower percentage of dead weight.

The dead weight doesnt matter in coop, on the contrary it leaves more meat for you, insomuch as coop rewards can be expected you will get more. The problem is the waste of time chasing cowardly bots. I dont want a 20 min coop match. The quickness is part of the fun.

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10 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

Tell me about it. Chasing bots around the map is not my idea of fun coop play. But i guess the best change they could ever make is to stop the bots from ramming each other by default. This is realiy a pain when you are the only human player since they inevitably manage to give the red bots a couple of die hards leaving you shorthanded and eventually alone facing multiple reds. In a dd that’s no problem, but in a cl it can often lead to a loss.

If one were to look at my posts tonight, one might see a certain saltiness wholly related to such things.

7 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

The dead weight doesnt matter in coop, on the contrary it leaves more meat for you, insomuch as coop rewards can be expected you will get more. The problem is the waste of time chasing cowardly bots. I dont want a 20 min coop match. The quickness is part of the fun.

Especially as a carrier player. Such fun losing Co-op games I otherwise could have won, if not for a rework I find new reason to loathe, every time I start to think otherwise. (Yeah, maybe I’m not great at carriers, but I loved playing them in Co-op late at night after my second shift job; lots of targets in games with few humans besides myself; and I could have my fun without annoying a real player on the red team.)

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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"The quickness is part of the fun."

I'm sure you're aware that the quickness means that in many if not most or nearly all games someone gets to spend 5 minutes sailing and a whopping 3 salvos for 10k damage. That never happened to me on the test server. I'd rather play a 10 minute game where every human has a chance to get into the action.

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5 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

If one were to look at my posts tonight, one might see a certain saltiness wholly related to such things.

Especially as a carrier player. Such fun losing Co-op games I otherwise could have won, if not for a rework I find new reason to loathe, every time I start to think otherwise. (Yeah, maybe I’m not great at carriers, but I loved playing them in Co-op late at night after my second shift job; lots of targets in games with few humans besides myself; and I could have my fun without annoying a real player on the red team.)

Ueah the cv is an issue if last left alive. Post rework not really sure what can be done. Main hope is stack fires/floods since bots always put out first fire. But post rework torps flood less and floods do less damgae.

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2 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Expect complaints from the PvE crew.The last time the bots had their intelligence improved the forums lit up.

Not on account of the bots being more competitive...but on account of the XP rewards being just as pitiful for a 15 minute competitive bot battle as for a 5 minute yoloing bot battle.

If they can increase the bots skill level they could just as easily increase the rewards for the extra time required to hunt them down.

I'm all for the PT bots on the regular server (& believe that once subs are introduced they will be...they surely aren't going to have subs sailing straight at you in coop...that would just be too stupid)...but the XP needs to be increased for the extra time spent chasing them all down...it's not that they are more difficult to kill...it just takes twice to 3 times longer to chase them all).

But maybe the extra easy XP for a sub kill (less HP pool but same XP value for the kill) will balance that out...at least in battles w/subs...but the battles w/out them (especially the ones w/CVs to chase down at the end) are going to be annoying w/the same XP value as they have now.

 

 

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6 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Expect complaints from the PvE crew.The last time the bots had their intelligence improved the forums lit up.

Yes, the forums lit up but it wasn't because the bots were "improved". This implies people complained it was harder (and I see this claim made a LOT) and didn't like that. This couldn't be further from the truth. Co-op mains applauded bots using their smoke vs just dropping it and continuing. Co-op mains applauded bots that actually would WASD and not just go straight. Co-op mains applauded bots that didn't yolo rush the middle in a big ball. And so forth. We liked a lot of what they changed back then and we pointed those good things out again and again.

BUT,  and here is the thing, they also made them into chicken bots who turned and ran at the 1st sign of aggression (like so many humans do in PVP). THAT did not make the games harder or more challenging. All THAT did was make the games drag on and on and on. The bots running didn't make them harder to kill it just made the games agonizingly long and boring for no good reason. XP/Credits were not increased for the extra time spent and one of the core things about Co-op that we Co-op mains like so much about the mode vs PVP (ie the aggressive always hard charging bots so every game is a brawl) was taken away. That ONE change basically ruined the mode. Didn't make it harder. No one complained it was too hard; it just made it boring, passive like PVP, and longer than needed. PEROID!

People then extrapolated the concerns Co-op mains had about the mode being ruined due to the chicken bots always running away to somehow mean Co-op mains were whining Co-op was too hard now which was just ridiculous. All the praise we gave to the good changes were ignored and people focused on the one concern we had and magnified and twisted it into something completely different than what it was. Was false then and is false now.

4 hours ago, monpetitloup said:

Its already active on live. I couldn’t disagree with you more. The point of coop is to get in smash bots in the mouth, get out and repeat. Now the bots are camping, back and forthing, and hiding and its taking longer to kill them all. If i want that i’ll play randoms- 80% of players in randoms are no better than bots anyway. I wont even speak about the bots using hydro and radar... 

@AdmiralThunder your thoughts?

 

4 hours ago, monpetitloup said:

Tell me about it. Chasing bots around the map is not my idea of fun coop play. But i guess the best change they could ever make is to stop the bots from ramming each other by default. This is realiy a pain when you are the only human player since they inevitably manage to give the red bots a couple of die hards leaving you shorthanded and eventually alone facing multiple reds. In a dd that’s no problem, but in a cl it can often lead to a loss.

I have never done the PTS so no idea what is going on with "improved bots". Haven't really seen much change in them on live other than once in a while a single bot sort of acts like the old chicken bots and sticks out.

Just reference my post above about my feelings on "improvements" that are good or bad for the mode. As long as the aggressive hard charging aspect is kept so you can actually fight vs the bots running/camping/hiding like PVP players I am ok with changes. Lose that aggression though and you lose what makes Co-op fun and why I play it. The PVP meta be it vs humans or vs bots has no appeal to me so if they change Co-op into the passive boring style of play you see in PVP they will lose me.

NOT because it will be harder (it won't we have already seen that) but because it will be boring as hell and more work for the same lousy pay out. No thanks.

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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+1 to the Admiral!

I would love to have smarter bots.  What I don't want is island camping, border hugging bots.

I really like the aggressive, barroom brawl style of game play in co-op.  If I want to play "hide and seek" or "hide and don't seek" I'll click the "random battle" button.

To put it another way, this.......

 

not this....

 

Is that clear enough?  :Smile_trollface:

Edited by Captain_Slattery
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1 hour ago, Jedrzejczyk said:

It appears to me that the xp on the test server has already been raised. Also, bot cvs don't run any more on test server.

Everything on the PT server is either increased or decreased. More XP and credits for battles, lower research and purchase costs. If the AI is improved the that is great and it should carry over to the regular game.

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5 hours ago, Jedrzejczyk said:

Just finished playing over a dozen games in coop on the test server. I'm a player who normally has nothing good to say about WG programming. I can't do that this time. The improvements to the bot playstyles are fantastic. The quality of the game just went up immeasurably. For the first time in awhile, I had the feeling I was in a naval battle. I hope others will agree that the new bots will provide us with some actual competition. 

The bots on the test server have been like this for a long time now.

Players in coop don`t want chicken bots that run and hide. Plus when 1 ship can push 4 bots out of a cap they are not smart bots just chicken.

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4 hours ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

Everything on the PT server is either increased or decreased. More XP and credits for battles, lower research and purchase costs. If the AI is improved the that is great and it should carry over to the regular game.

The bots on the PTS are always going up or down in their skill level. 

I'd assume this is done for testing things out for (previously) operations, and for special events (Halloween, etc.).  Not all PTS AI goes to coop.

That being said, I saw them lemming train the other day, so the bots are getting more human.

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35 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

That being said, I saw them lemming train the other day, so the bots are getting more human.

LOL this is epic. Kiting bots and Lemming trains, all we need now is island humping bots spewing toxic chat and it will be PvP! 

Gratz Wargaming! Keep doubling down (quadrupling down?) on this, am sure everything will be fine........................... 

 

Edited by Taylor3006
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18 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

LOL this is epic. Kiting bots and Lemming trains, all we need now is island humping bots spewing toxic chat and it will be PvP! 

Gratz Wargaming! Keep doubling down (quadrupling down?) on this, am sure everything will be fine........................... 

 

Seeing it once, I am not certain it was the intent to lemming.

Sometimes the little toasters' programming gets messed up by conflicting requirements.

On the plus side, if you are on the lemming direction side :cap_rambo:

On the minus side, if you on the non lemming direction :fish_sleep:

 

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1 hour ago, DrHolmes52 said:

The bots on the PTS are always going up or down in their skill level. 

I have noticed that also, but I see the same thing with them in the regular game to a lesser degree. 

I prefer that the higher skilled versions seen on the PT be seen more in the game. The challenge they present is great.

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Just now, CAPTMUDDXX said:

I have noticed that also, but I see the same thing with them in the regular game to a lesser degree. 

I prefer that the higher skilled versions seen on the PT be seen more in the game. The challenge they present is great.

I agree on the in game (and lesser degree).

Every now and again you get the bot that just can't seem to be hit (compared to his brother bots), stay in his smoke and farms you, or launches torps at something other than suicidal range.

 

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All people have to do is go play on PTS to play with the chicken bots were games take over 15mins. 

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10 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Not on account of the bots being more competitive...but on account of the XP rewards being just as pitiful for a 15 minute competitive bot battle as for a 5 minute yoloing bot battle.

If they can increase the bots skill level they could just as easily increase the rewards for the extra time required to hunt them down.

I'm all for the PT bots on the regular server (& believe that once subs are introduced they will be...they surely aren't going to have subs sailing straight at you in coop...that would just be too stupid)...but the XP needs to be increased for the extra time spent chasing them all down...it's not that they are more difficult to kill...it just takes twice to 3 times longer to chase them all).

But maybe the extra easy XP for a sub kill (less HP pool but same XP value for the kill) will balance that out...at least in battles w/subs...but the battles w/out them (especially the ones w/CVs to chase down at the end) are going to be annoying w/the same XP value as they have now.

 

 

Actually because the matches lasted longer you could earn more experience because you could play the objectives. After a few matches I was able to easily top 500 base experience where with the current bots that is closer to 300 because the matches end so quickly.

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